VAF Forums

VAF Forums (https://vansairforce.net/community/index.php)
-   Safety (https://vansairforce.net/community/forumdisplay.php?f=100)
-   -   Training for aileron rolls or other simple aerobatics (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=198885)

DylanRush 09-02-2021 06:42 PM

Training for aileron rolls or other simple aerobatics
 
I was up with a CFI yesterday who has owned his RV for a few years. We went up just to shake off the rust and do some maneuvers.

He offered to do some aileron rolls. We got up and did a few: 120kts into the maneuver, pitch up 10 degrees, yank to the side, use elevator to keep a positive G, roll out, and pitch up to get level and avoid building airspeed. It was awesome. I got my RV grin again and it lasted the whole day. He demonstrated two or three, then I did a few, and I felt very comfortable with the procedure.

My question is: should I pursue any additional aerobatic training before attempting this procedure solo? Maybe spin recovery training? I'm not sure I'm interested in other aerobatic maneuvers yet, but that interest will probably grow over time. My instructor said I did great and he said he didn't see a problem with me executing the maneuver on my own. For more context I have about 80-90 hours in my RV-6A.

Also, should one strictly adhere to the aerobatic weight and balance category, even for lower-G maneuvers like aileron rolls? My G-meter maxed out at around 2G.

jrs14855 09-02-2021 07:03 PM

Aileron Rolls
 
Aileron rolls have gotten more than a few people in trouble. Find another instructor. There is no need to slam the stick.
I use more speed and a substantially steeper climb. Touch of rudder in the direction of the roll and a nice smooth application of aileron. That keeps the nose from dropping very far below the horizon. You can establish the climb, let go of the stick and push the stick to the left or right with your finger, no elevator movement.
You may want to read the accident report on in flight breakup of RV 7 near Atlantic City NJ. That was the result of a botched aileron roll.
Get some instruction.

ty1295 09-02-2021 07:24 PM

I very much believe you should get spin training prior to doing more. You don't want to see a spin the first time solo, and not expecting it.

DylanRush 09-02-2021 08:39 PM

Excellent thanks so much for the replies! I'll get some spin training before attempting this on my own.

Ironflight 09-02-2021 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DylanRush (Post 1553073)
Excellent thanks so much for the replies! I'll get some spin training before attempting this on my own.

Excellent decision Dylan - there is always more to learn, and I’d be just a little nervous about a “spur of the moment” instructional moment from a CFI that probably didn’t check to see if the airplane was below aerobatic gross first. And oh….you WERE wearing parachutes to be legal…right?

Paul

dreed 09-02-2021 11:35 PM

I'd add my vote for training too. I'd say if you can find some upset recovery training (URT)+ some spin training even better in my opinion. They can get you pretty comfortable in all sorts of attitudes- and it's a heck of a lot of fun. I am a complete amateur, but the first time I did a hammerhead was so much fun- like a little kid giggling levels of fun. Could not wait to learn more and get better.

craig.roser 09-03-2021 03:58 AM

Dylan, I just completed a Basic Aerobatics Course Course given by Alain Aguayo. See https://www.aguayoaerosports.com/services. The course was a hoot!

Even though I do not think I will ever compete I wanted the instruction, which centered around the Primary Category Known Program, and Alain seemed the best choice. See https://www.iac.org/known-sequences.

Long ago I had gotten an Intro to Aerobatics Flight as a gift. That hour and a half went in my logbook but didn't prepare me to fly my RV8 upside down. I have to admit it was hard keeping El ZunZun upright until I competed the course. (smile)

larryMar 09-03-2021 06:39 AM

Definitely get spin training ! Spins are a normal maneuver and other countries insist on mastery before a certification. For the life of me, I can't understand FAA's very weak stall and spin training requirements.
In any case, get with an instructor who specializes or will do upright and inverted spins. ait may very well save your life!

Mcmark 09-03-2021 07:44 AM

I recently watched a botched hammerhead turn into an inverted flat spin. Scared me and I was on the ground! Get spin training!!!!

DanH 09-03-2021 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DylanRush (Post 1553046)
Also, should one strictly adhere to the aerobatic weight and balance category, even for lower-G maneuvers like aileron rolls? My G-meter maxed out at around 2G.

The risk here is an airspeed runaway, and until you get one going, you may not grasp just how quickly it can happen. Staying within the acro W&B envelope allows pulling to the designed structural limit if necessary.

Which brings up a few points. First, it does not sound like your instructor communicated the more subtle aspects of a simple one G roll. Think about Jim's comments above, in particular the phrase "..establish the climb, let go of the stick and push the stick to the left or right with your finger, no elevator movement." There are many kinds of rolls, and while some require distinct elevator inputs, this type isn't one of them.

Go here, and watch my right hand beginning at 19 seconds:

https://vimeo.com/189574781

The elevator is allowed to float to its trimmed position. The open hand means no elevator input. And there is no "yank to the side". As Jim said, smooth is the key, and note I didn't use full deflection.

Two, I won't tell you to avoid solo practice, as aptitude varies a lot. However, understand this...the error which can kill is to split-S halfway through a roll, with a subsequent overspeed breakup or ground impact. Absolutely, positively fix this mantra in your mind...Once committed to the roll, I will not pull, but instead maintain the roll input until again upright, no matter what..

edclee 09-03-2021 09:53 AM

Aerobatics
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DanH (Post 1553137)
The risk here is an airspeed runaway, and until you get one going, you may not grasp just how quickly it can happen. Staying within the acro W&B envelope allows pulling to the designed structural limit if necessary.

Which brings up a few points. First, it does not sound like your instructor communicated the more subtle aspects of a simple one G roll. Think about Jim's comments above, in particular the phrase "..establish the climb, let go of the stick and push the stick to the left or right with your finger, no elevator movement." There are many kinds of rolls, and while some require distinct elevator inputs, this type isn't one of them.

Go here, and watch my right hand beginning at 19 seconds:

https://vimeo.com/189574781

The elevator is allowed to float to its trimmed position. The open hand means no elevator input. And there is no "yank to the side". As Jim said, smooth is the key, and note I didn't use full deflection.

Two, I won't tell you to avoid solo practice, as aptitude varies a lot. However, understand this...the error which can kill is to split-S halfway through a roll, with a subsequent overspeed breakup or ground impact. Absolutely, positively fix this mantra in your mind...Once committed to the roll, I will not pull, but instead maintain the roll input until again upright, no matter what..

Dan is absolutely right. I taught basic aerobatics for several years and I always did upset training first. It is CRITICALLY important that if you find yourself in a very unusual attitude either by upset or a blown aerobatics maneuver, resist the temptation to use the elevator. If looking at the ground outside the windscreen pull throttle off and roll the airplane with NO ELEVATOR INPUT, until right side up then recover to level with smooth elevator. If looking at the sky through the windscreen leave throttle alone and roll the airplane (direction not important, just roll in SOME direction) with NO ELEVATOR input until right side up, then recover with elevator. Overspeed, especially in an RV is very easy to reach, and once exceeded it may be impossible (if nose down) to recover without structural damage or failure. Repeated training in the recovery is the only way to be certain you will do the right thing in a panic. I would always have the student look in his lap, the do a half snap with the nose up or down, depending. The snap happens so quick he cannot possibly know what he will be looking at when I tell him it's his airplane and recover. He must do the right thing no matter what he sees when he looks up.
Ed

jrs14855 09-03-2021 11:48 AM

Aileron rolls
 
The fatal RV7 accident near Atlantic City NJ was a result of loss of control, likely following an attempted aileron roll.
When I was instructing aerobatics I would start my preflight briefing by asking the trainee a bit about his pilot experience. One gentleman who had an RV, I think a 6, told me about an aileron roll attempt that he barely survived. At the inverted point, going much too fast, he stopped the roll and pulled back on the stick. Airspeed near 300, finished very close to the ground.

chrispratt 09-03-2021 12:33 PM

+1 for jrs14855 and DanH comments.

Chris

RV8Squaz 09-03-2021 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edclee (Post 1553158)
Dan is absolutely right. I taught basic aerobatics for several years and I always did upset training first... He must do the right thing no matter what he sees when he looks up.
Ed

When I teach aerobatics, I do exactly what Ed says above. I spend the first hour doing upset recovery training reserving the last few minutes for a couple of loops and rolls all of which is thoroughly pre-briefed. Upset recovery training includes unusual attitude recovery, stalls of all flavors including avoidance, recognition, and recovery, and spin training that includes avoidance, recognition, recovery from normal and aggravated spins. You should be comfortable with all of the above before attempting aerobatics on your own. Subsequent lessons focus on performing aerobatics correctly and recovery from poorly flown maneuvers.

I highly recommend a basic aerobatics course such as that offered by Alain Aguayo in Florida or Greg Koontz,http://www.gkairshows.com, in Alabama.

spatsch 09-03-2021 05:00 PM

You got lots of good tips in this thread. Just wanted to elaborate a bit that there are many types of rolls.

The one most people like are what many call a Hoover Roll for obvious reasons. 1 G all the way around. Something like this:

http://www.spatscheck.com/oliver/Thirsty12_10_2015.mp4

it is a really gentle maneuver can be done with less load then a steep turn if you want to. I don't think I get even 2 Gs on that one (hardest part on the video was to control the yaw so the cup didn't slide off the instrument panel when empty).

On the other hand a straight roll is much more violent then that. Not in the G load but the fact that the G load constantly changes all the way around and things move fast.

I also want to emphasize that I noticed many unexperienced acro pilots to stop rolling when inverted. It seems to be nature. That is what makes rolls dangerous. If you hang there with 1G positive you will be past Vne in no time.

Oliver

Eric_04 09-06-2021 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrs14855 (Post 1553175)
The fatal RV7 accident near Atlantic City NJ was a result of loss of control, likely following an attempted aileron roll.
When I was instructing aerobatics I would start my preflight briefing by asking the trainee a bit about his pilot experience. One gentleman who had an RV, I think a 6, told me about an aileron roll attempt that he barely survived. At the inverted point, going much too fast, he stopped the roll and pulled back on the stick. Airspeed near 300, finished very close to the ground.

This is scary, it sounds like he's very lucky the airplane did not break up in flight.

luddite42 09-07-2021 09:54 AM

I suggest getting some basic aerobatic training for a wider perspective and understanding of all the basics, not just aileron rolls. A positive G aileron roll is literally about the easiest thing you can do in an RV, assuming you have some basic awareness of how NOT to screw up, and have gotten past the point of succumbing to these pitfalls. Not sure how much perspective you have on this topic in general, so that's why I'd recommend some minimal quality aerobatic instruction.

ERJDriver 09-07-2021 09:56 AM

Depends on your back ground, are you a pro that flys everyday and have had some sort of upset training? Find someone who has a background in acro and/or upset training and go fly with them.

I’ll echo what others have said, the rate at which these things pickup airspeed when pointed down is quite impressive. There should be no aft stick pressure in the roll until you’re wings level in a normal attitude. People have a tendency to stop the roll while inverted and pull. That’s where you get into trouble.

Get an instructor and go have fun.

uk_figs 09-07-2021 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mcmark (Post 1553134)
I recently watched a botched hammerhead turn into an inverted flat spin. Scared me and I was on the ground! Get spin training!!!!

I have that T shirt, right after completing an unusual attitudes/aerobatic course, and we also compounded the problem by pulling through rather than rolling out first to recover. Very sobering experience about how quickly things can get away from you and lesson learned. Also I remember in phase 1 being surprised at how quickly the RV accelerates when pointing straight down.

Funnily enough I was just talking to people this weekend about taking a spin training refresher after the "tuck under" videos that have been posted recently, this thread is another gentle nudge to do just that.
Figs

Vac 09-12-2021 10:45 AM

RV Inverted Acceleration Demo Video
 
Why RV's accelerate so fast inverted, nose low: https://youtu.be/CkcQartrJGQ

Fly safe,

Vac

FlyinTiger 09-12-2021 05:15 PM

Worth doing it right
 
Please get proper aerobatic instruction.

1. Get with an instructor that has the proper equipment. You must wear parachutes when other than solo.

2. Flying with an instructor in an aircraft suited for instruction is key. There's a lot more to flying aerobatics than the "gentleman's aerobatics" we do in RVs.

3. Learn what to do when things don't go as planned. Lots of great examples in previous posts. Hopefully nothing bad ever happens, but preparation is key.

4. Know what doing aerobatics can do to your RV. There's a couple Service Bulletins out there that have us check aileron hinge mounts and empenage mounts for abuse. Fixing these things can become expensive and time consuming, so know what you are getting into before doing lots of aerobatics in your RV. :cool:

drill_and_buck 09-12-2021 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vac (Post 1554903)
Why RV's accelerate so fast inverted, nose low: https://youtu.be/CkcQartrJGQ

Fly safe,

Vac

Great one-minute video Mike, it says it all and should be viewed by all RV pilots.

ronschreck 09-13-2021 07:00 AM

+1. Get the training!
 
Dylan, you sound like a very conservative pilot who is anxious to learn new tricks and that's great. The problem with just doing one G aileron rolls is that you will soon get comfortable with them and may start experimenting with other maneuvers like loops and hammerhead turns. Those can easily lead to an out of control situation which you are not trained to recognize or recover from. I would encourage EVERY pilot to get instruction in unusual attitude and spin recovery even if you have no intent to do aerobatics. The training just makes you a better pilot. Once you gain confidence with basic aerobatics you may just become hooked and anxious to explore the outer edges of the flight envelope. It's a wonderful place out there on the edges and aerobatics open up a whole new world of piloting that is the playground of some of the finest pilots you will ever know. Enjoy!

MikeyDale 09-14-2021 07:09 AM

Dan, you da MAN!......I hope that wasn't Scotch that you poured!


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:56 AM.