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Ei for IO540

Bill.Peyton

Well Known Member
I just realized that my new 540 does not come with an impulse mag and requires the slick start module for $650. I am now contemplating replacing one mag with an EI. The question is, what are the choices? I know of light speed , but I really like th simplicity of the P mag, but it appers a 6 cylinder model does not exist on their web site. Are their any other mature solutions out there for a 540?
 
Electroair

You may consider an Electroair system ... I still have an early generation ~1994 vintage system that works great. Only thing I've ever replaced is the mag pickup 6 years ago. They have come a long ways since then and seem to have a great system still. I have a Slick impulse mag on the left and the Electroair for the "right" mag.
 
Emag has a model for the O/IO-540 they introduced at S&F. Brad says it should be in production in 3 to 4 months and if you order now you will save over $300 each.

Getting ready to pull the trigger.....probably go with one with a mag as b/u.
 
I had an Electro air that lasted about 250 hours on my 540. First the pickup or more accurately the flexible arm that holds the pick up allowed the pickup to contact the timing wheel. After that was replaced some temperature sensitive components in the coil plate gave up. The new ones allow you to mount these parts in the cockpitt side while the coils stay on the engine side. However for the 540 the clamp on timing wheel under the ring gear is still the way it's done.


In the end I opted for a second mag and put a slick start on the LH mag. It starts like it has an EI hot or cold.
 
Straight from vans/LYCOMING. It has a retard mag and requires the slick start module.

You really sure?? ;)

I can look up the details of our mags, but that does not sound right to me.

By the way no slick start modules in any of the RV's I have anything to do with.

I fear you may be on a hiding to nothing!

By the way.....we have lost count of the numbers of starts in 600 hours. :)
 
Bill,

Take a look at the G3i. That's what I've installed. I like it because the mags are still the backup if the ei fails. Larry Vetterman did a great write up of his tests with the G3i on his web site. Thomas will also talk as long as you need to answer any questions you may have.

http://www.g3ignition.com/

http://vettermanexhaust.com/
Look for the Hatzell vs whirlwind article at the bottom of the page

Bob
 
The Lycoming "as-built" document lists two mags installed on my engine P/N 66LP-OSCNN (6350)and P/N 66LR37-SCNN (6393). The latter being a retard mag. I don't understand why they don't ship with an impulse coupled mag.

Bob, thanks for the input.
 
Bill,
You don't need the SlickStart Module for your 6393 retard breaker mag in order for it to start your engine. It can help if the mag is having problems, but is not required. The choice to switch to an impulse coupled mag is more along the lines of do you want a mechanical system (the impulse coupler) or the battery (the retard breaker) to give you the extra "spark" to start the engine? My Barrett IO-540 came with the 6393 as well and I'm sticking with it.

Here's a good read on all things magneto:
http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182843-1.html
 
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Thanks Todd, Based on a couple of reports I have read, over time as the points get dirty etc. the engine will become harder to start and the additional spark is needed for a quick start. I was not going to install the module and see how it worked without it. I also was going to fly phase 1 with just the mags and not an EI system.
 
David,
Do you ever run LOP with the dual mags?

Bill,
I have before (my RV-10 isn't flying yet) and everyone else who's flying standard certifed aircraft LOP certainly are. In fact, John Deakins, author of the Pelican's Perch series of articles over on AVWEB suggests that in lieu of the standard run-up mag check, that you conduct and in-flight, high-power, LOP mag check to really determine the health of the ignition system.

http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182179-1.html

But don't get me wrong--I'm a fan of EI, I'm just pointing out the art of the possible. I plan to add EI myself at some point, but it's at the bottom of my wish list and I simply don't have the cash right now.
 
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Emag has a model for the O/IO-540 they introduced at S&F. Brad says it should be in production in 3 to 4 months and if you order now you will save over $300 each.

Getting ready to pull the trigger.....probably go with one with a mag as b/u.

Hmmm.....

I have been in touch with Brad for the last 18 months or so and the P200 has been coming "soon" most of that time - still waiting :( I've had my engine shipped without mags in anticipation.

Don't get me wrong - if the Pmag-4 is anything to go by it will be a great product but they are at least a year behind schedule.

By the way, what was the projected price?
 
Barrett Perf was working on an electronic ign for the 540------you might give them a call and see what the status is.
 
I have tried repeatedly to contact Barrett about their Ignition (Zeus). After the initial posting they made, they have been MIA/Absolutely silent on the offering. So I am suspecting they have run into some major issues moving forward. Just my assumption.

Who knows, maybe they are just secretive. But when they asked for engines to dyno with their product, I offered up my brand new YIO-540 straight from Vans. Still no word/info from them.
 
David,
Do you ever run LOP with the dual mags?

I have same mags as you but with the slick start and I run LOP all the time below 65% power. Injectors are not balanced so I get a fuel flow spread of 1.5 gph as well as my first to peak having to go to 40F LOP before last reaches peak. Runs smooth here but I am sure it can do better.

I am planning on calling Don on balancing injectors later this summer. My only question is we spend time and money balancing fuel flow but what if your problem is air flow related? You may be running leaner on one due to increased air flow vs decreased fuel flow. Sorry for thread drift. I am terrible for that Bill.
 
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I am planning on balancing injectors later this summer. My only question is we spend time and money balancing fuel flow but what if your problem is air flow related? You may be running leaner on one due to increased air flow vs decreased fuel flow. Sorry for thread drift. I am terrible for that Bill.

I kind of thought balancing the injectors did that. We speak in terms of FF, but by changing injector sizes in an attempt to equalize FF across all of the cylinders in fact balancing the air fuel mixture which takes into account variations in the induction system, at least to some degree?
 
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What was the price they offered?

$1450 including harness and auto plug adapters. The regular price once in production will be about $1800.

Payback in about 250 hours with fuel alone...... Assuming 10-15% fuel savings.

I work near Azle where they are located so I will drop by some time this week to see where they are as far as production readiness.....
 
I would be curious where they are regarding production. Let us know what you find....

This forum is great! How'd they do it before the internet?

I think the answer for me is... Do nothing until I get the cylinders flow matched. If I can run LOP smoothly I may not do anything with the EI until some of the new products hit the market.

Bob, the only fault I can find with the G3I is that the timing is still fixed at 20 deg. and you have to mod both of your mags....
 
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I think the answer for me is... Do nothing until I get the cylinders flow matched. If I can run LOP smoothly I may not do anything with the EI until some of the new products hit the market.

One thing not mentioned is that idling is much smoother on EI, especially when the engine is cold. The RV-6 I'm flying now shakes horribly on startup with dual 4371's with only 80 hours on them...my -6 on startup was much smoother. The gold box Electroair ignition on my RV-6 worked great and have two of the six-cylinder old gold boxes on my Rocket.
 
Pmag-6

It has just occurred to me that with the time-scale, Emagair could well be using Oshkosh to launch the P200.

The introductory price sounds very attractive but I remember the teething problems with the Pmag-4 (yes, I've been building that @#$% long!). Since I'm not going to be ready to fire up for another 12-18 months I'm wondering whether to wait and pay the extra.

For me in the UK, the Pmag concept is a godsend. The regs here still insist on keeping one traditional mag but with Pmag it has been successfully argued for a dual fit on the grounds of equivalency. To my mind, it makes no sense to fit traditional mags when a product like this is available unless you have an aircraft without an electrical system.
 
Paul, I suspect the knowledge gained from solving the problems of the 4 cyl unit, will give the 6 cyl unit a head start on the reliability curve.
 
Mike

Yes, you are probably right. Most of the problems were due to overheating which they fixed with the use of blast tubes. I guess $700 is not to be sneezed at.........
 
Fly it for the 25 hour test period and then put in a Lightspeed. If you put it in before your inspection you will have a 40 hour test period. After 25 hours you can assign your own test period, min. 5 hours (I think, may be less).

Do the flywheel magnets in your initial build.

Did it with my -6A, except I used his mag. hole pickup. Had a switch for the Lihgtspeed and all wiring labled "spare".
 
Retard breaker mag

Bill,
You don't need the SlickStart Module for your 6393 retard breaker mag in order for it to start your engine. It can help if the mag is having problems, but is not required. The choice to switch to an impulse coupled mag is more along the lines of do you want a mechanical system (the impulse coupler) or the battery (the retard breaker) to give you the extra "spark" to start the engine? My Barrett IO-540 came with the 6393 as well and I'm sticking with it.

Here's a good read on all things magneto:
http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182843-1.html

I'm curious - If you have a retard breaker mag and you're not using a Slickstart or vibrator box, how are you starting on that mag?

Kevin Belue
RV-6A
RV-10
 
Fly it for the 25 hour test period and then put in a Lightspeed. If you put it in before your inspection you will have a 40 hour test period. After 25 hours you can assign your own test period, min. 5 hours (I think, may be less).

Do the flywheel magnets in your initial build.

Did it with my -6A, except I used his mag. hole pickup. Had a switch for the Lihgtspeed and all wiring labled "spare".

I would consider this to be BAD ADVICE.

While I am not familiar with the US regs here that would constitue a major modification and require consultation with the AP who issued the CofA, and you may get more phase one hours as a result.

Walt.....where are you?

On a slightly different front, did anyone see the stats in the last EAA magazine? Electronic Ignition was responsible for twice the engine failures of Magneto's and possibly many more problems that are unreported.

I may be conservative, but for me until there is a certified engine with them readily available in remote places like Oz, I am sticking to the old Maggies.

If you compare the current units to the PRISM system and it's constant monitoring of ICP, and consider that PRISM is still not on the market yet, you would have to say it is not as simple as it seems on the surface.

Anyway each to his own.....and yes I do fly some RV's with them, just not IFR ;)
 
Our IO 540 came same way, but

I did not realize that and cussed the engine for two years trying to get "hot starts" (impossible) ---- finally the engine builder told me I had no impulse mag, but one retard and one conventional. ---- A retard mag requires a "shower of sparks" to work properly. We installed a Slickstart, wired to the retard mag ------ life is beautiful again!!
 
I would consider this to be BAD ADVICE.

While I am not familiar with the US regs here that would constitue a major modification and require consultation with the AP who issued the CofA, and you may get more phase one hours as a result.

Walt.....where are you?

On a slightly different front, did anyone see the stats in the last EAA magazine? Electronic Ignition was responsible for twice the engine failures of Magneto's and possibly many more problems that are unreported.

I may be conservative, but for me until there is a certified engine with them readily available in remote places like Oz, I am sticking to the old Maggies.

If you compare the current units to the PRISM system and it's constant monitoring of ICP, and consider that PRISM is still not on the market yet, you would have to say it is not as simple as it seems on the surface.

Anyway each to his own.....and yes I do fly some RV's with them, just not IFR ;)

Is changing one mag to a EI a major mod, I think this is another area of the FAR's that is open to some interpretation, FAR's read:

? 21.93 Classification of changes in type design.(a)
In addition to changes in type design specified in paragraph (b) of this section, changes in type design are classified as minor and major. A ?minor change? is one that has no appreciable effect on the weight, balance, structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other characteristics affecting the airworthiness of the product. All other changes are ?major changes? (except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section).

On the flip side, being legal is good, but being safe is even better. In my view there is nothing wrong with a 40 hr fly-off so don't make a 25 hour fly off a goal, The extra time is well spent working out the bugs and doing detailed inpections and basically proving system reliablity/integrity.

When I built my plane I started with 1 mag and 1 LSE, 500 hours later I switched to dual LSE, only after the aircraft electrical system had proven itself 100% reliable and all redundant systems had proven themselves did I make the change to dual LSE.

If I lived in AU, I would probably stick with mags just for the availability of spare parts.

My experience with the LSE has been excellent. I initially had the mag pick-up which had problems with oil leaks (switching to the crank sensor fixed that problem) and I had one of the LSE boxes develop an intermittent at one point early on. The last 1000 hours have been trouble free.
 
Is changing one mag to a EI a major mod, ...
This question was asked at one of our chapter meetings to a member of the local FSDO.

His reply was "No, it is not a major mod." However, he did question why anyone would want a dual EI setup. Later we described the P-mag operation (I know, it does you (I)O-540 guys any good at this time, but it is coming.) and he was very impressed by what he heard.
 
It will probably start for test runs without the Slick start. Don't operate it that way though. The YIO comes with the LS starter and I don't like kickbacks period. You could put an impulse mag on. No phase one difference because you already have an exp engine with the Silverhawk. I'd just bite for the Slick Start, it helps with hot starts and no coupling to fail in the accy case.
 
Back from Emag....

I would be curious where they are regarding production. Let us know what you find....
QUOTE]

Took a long lunch and went over to Emag in Azle. I like the new form factor of the 6 cylinder Pmag, it is much lighter than I expected (lighter than the 4 cylinder unit) and is not as bulky as the previous prototype I saw. The electronic components are pretty much the same as used and proven on the 4 cylinder models so issues with heat, vibration etc. should not be an issue.

They are going to do some more flight tests to get more hours on the units (Alex De Dominicis RV-10 and another RV10 in Granbury, TX). They are looking at a limited production run to verify processes etc before going into production. My estimate is that they should start in production August or September. It is impressive seeing a small company with equipment to make their own spark plug adapters, electronic boards (automated SMC machine with oven to flow the solder), and keep virtually everything in house.

I ma putting my name on the list...over 250 their already. No deposit required until they are on the verge of production.

Looks like a good well thought out product leveraging the experience and reliability gained i the current 4 cylinder design.

(The company I work for makes a variety of electronics for F-35, V-22, AH-1N, AH-1W, F-15, F-16, etc. We make some of our own boards here. I went with a friend of mine who is a Technical Program Manager in our engineering department and is also an A&P. I am an engineer now in Program Management. We were both impressed with what we saw)
 
Got this info from Brad at eMagAir

Better yet, we?re offing a pre-production price discount for people who are on ?the list? (no deposit due until we are closer to delivery).

Pre-production price $1450 (each) includes ignition, harness, and auto plug adapters. After production starts the price will increase by $344.

...
First release likely in 2-3 months.
 
Why the change?

We had impulse mag supplied, why now the retard?:confused:

BTW we have NO hot start issues, and we are in a hot place too!



PS: Walt, down here a mag off, EI on would be considered a major mod, mostly. But hey, we have the same rubbery rules as you, except yours are even easier to follow........confused yet?
 
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Did you check the actual part number of the mag. Both the retard and the impulse mag have a centrifugal coupling and have the "clicking" sound when rotated slowly...
 
David,

I would assume they wanted to make engine cost appear lower in advertising. Probably also the reason the lower cost starter was installed. Most builders are not aware that a $600 slick start may be needed until you get to the engine and ignition switch wiring installation. I was told by another builder ahead of time. My starts great cold, but I need more practice on hot starts.
 
Did you check the actual part number of the mag. Both the retard and the impulse mag have a centrifugal coupling and have the "clicking" sound when rotated slowly...

I have a Bendix Retard mag on my IO-540, but there isn't any kind of centrifugal coupling or noise when turned. Are you confusing this with the rubber cushion coupling?

Also, I don't see how this mag could be used to start the engine without a Slickstart, vibrator box, or resistor inline with the retard connection - otherwise the retard points would short the battery connection on the start switch to ground. Not good!

Kevin Belue
RV-6A
RV-10
 
I have a Bendix Retard mag on my IO-540, but there isn't any kind of centrifugal coupling or noise when turned. Are you confusing this with the rubber cushion coupling?

You would only hear the noise if you have a impulse coupled mag. The flywheel inside is what makes the noise. The Retard has no spark generator as it uses a Shower of Sparks to generate the current to spark.
 
The retard would be open with no P-lead connected. You'd essentially have 2 non-impulse mags timed at 25. No, you wont hear coupling noise from the retard mag. That's how I found mine. I also thought I had an impulse mag on there and shortly before first run I went to show a customer what his coupling should sound like. No snap. Huh. Looked at the mag case and model number and thought: ****, there goes $600.
 
Bill,
If you have retard breaker mags but don't want a Slickstart, make sure to connect the retard connection to the LR connection on the switch so the mag will be retarded during start. Otherwise it will kickback. I've used Slickstart on my retard mags for over 800 hrs and it works great, but i really want the 6 cylinder Pmags.

Kevin Belue
RV-6A
RV-10
 
I have the ignition switch hooked up correctly for the mag. I think I am waiting for the new 6 cyl version and just see how badly it behaves
 
It's Electric...

Bill,
Mag issues aside, I'll add to the Electroair kudos. Three systems and 2500+ hours later I'm still happy. My IO540C4B5 in my HR2 ran wonderfully for 1000 hours with the crank trigger EI system. Both my 0-320's run great, my RV4 system approaching 2000 hours. Their new systems are even better.
Easy Hot starts, high altitude efficiency, cool running, better gas mileage, cheap spark plugs!
Need I say more?

V/R
Smokey

Www.electroair.net
 
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Prism

It is November 2012.

I first heard of Gami Prism ignition in 2002.

Ten years ago.

I like the attributes listed especially what seems to be retarding spark if it senses detonation.

But it's been ten years.

I am putting together a IO-540-C4B5 with new cylinders. RSA10, Cold Air Induction, 6 into 1 exhaust, and 9.5:1 pistons. The pressure detonation sensor abilities sound great.

But is Prism on the back shelf now?

Below is their website I copy and pasted it here.
------------------------------

Pressure Reactive Intelligent Spark Management
At last, technology that will not only update our ignition systems to the 21st Century, but will go beyond the multi-sensor automobile style FADEC systems of the OEMs.

Using proprietary hardware and software developed by GAMI, the PRISM system continuously monitors and controls the cylinder combustion pressures for location relative to top dead center and for safeguarding the engine from detonation. This allows for the use of lower octane, unleaded fuels and improved performance at the same time. Certification is expected soon.

Read what Kitplanes had to say about GAMI's PRISM in this article on the future of AvGas.



Features:

•Optimized Spark Timing to achieve maximum brake torque.
•Simple: Fewer moving parts and a fiber optic design.
•Increased horsepower at all power settings.
•Smoother engine operation - reduces coefficient of variation of combustion - even on lean mixtures.
•More efficient engine operation - CDI produces larger spark at optimized time BTDC.
•Replaces both magnetos - no overhaul required prior to TBO.
•Fully redundant design - proven electronic durability with quad redundant ignition.
•Includes GAMI's Supplenator. Supplemental Alternator - back-up power to primary alternator and battery and GAMI's PDU Panel Display Unit.
•Automatic detection/prevention of detonation.
•Maintains lower peak cylinder pressures - reduced loads on power train components, longer engine life.
•Allows for the future use of lower octane, unleaded fuels.
•Champion� ignition components (spark plugs, wires, coils).
•Improved fuel economy- lower BSFCs than previously possible.
•Significantly lower EGTs/**** for reduced exhaust system maintenance.
•*Optional panel display of actual real-time horsepower and torque.
•*Optional digital tachometer.
•*Optional extensive on-board engine diagnostic capability.

http://www.gami.com/prism/prism.php

---------------------------

First time I heard about it in 2002 I paste below.

---------
cnsanford Posted: 9 Aug 2002 13:13
rated by 0 users One of the most exciting developments coming out of GAMI's engineering work on piston engines is the PRISM electronic ignition system.

The big takeaway from all of their work is the most important aspect of engine managment is the timing of the peak power pulse (PPP) in relation to the top-dead-center (TDC) event. Best mechanical advantage is provided by PPP at 15 degrees past TDC. This also provides cooler operation and eliminates detonation. But with the stoneage fixed timing systems on the engines, we are limited to shifting PPP timing by diddling the mixture, a very indirect and inefficient setup.

The principle of PRISM is so simple it is brilliant. Aided by new sensor technology, GAMI has instrumented the engines to directly sense in real time the cylinder head pressures, and then in a closed-loop control system vary the timing of the spark to place PPP at 15 past TDC. Their original goal was to allow turbocharged engines to run on unleaded gas. This they achieved, but it also results in cooler, higher power takeoffs for normally aspirated engines, and even protects from detonation if you get jet fuel mixed with your avgas. PRISM is still in final development and they are working with the FAA towards their certification.

GAMI has a partner company in ADA, Tornado Aley Turbos that makes add-on turbo kits for planes such as Bonanza's. We had a long discussion on the possibilty of turbonormalizing the SR22.

The bottom line was that if someone was willing to leave them an SR22 for 6 months, they could fit a turbonormalizer (with PRISM when approved). And subsequent installs could use the STC and would take about 4 weeks. There is plenty of room in the lower cowl, although they would probably build a new exhaust system. That would easily make this a 200kt airplane.

The fly in the ointment is weight and balance. The turbonormalizer would add 50-60pounds to the nose. That would certainly make the plane nose-heavy. We discussed ways to counteract that, such as adding an installed oxygen system to the tail, and moving BAT1 rearward. But you would still lose 60 pounds or so of useful load, and combined with the 20-50pounds of TKS, 20+ pounds of new avionics in the 2003, the plane is getting porky.

I asked how that was handled with Bonanza's. Apparently Bonanza's are tail-heavy to begin with, so the added weight up front is a plus. And there is an STC for tip-tanks for the Bonanza that adds 160 pounds of gross (sacrificing utility category to normal in the process).

Any gross weight increase on the SR22 would seem to be a big deal, since it would increase the already-near-limits stall speed, and require CAPS recertification etc.

So, I don't see a practical way to keep the utility of the SR22 with a turbonormalizer, much as I'd love one. Anyone have any ideas?

------------------------

All turbo normalizing asside...... I am just interested in the Prisim for electronic ignition, better advancement at top end for horsepower keeping in mind detonation and adjusting accordingly and easier start up due to the electronic ignition.
 
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PRSIM is definately not on the back burner. Mind you G100UL is the priority in Ada as best I can tell.

To use a system as effective as PRISM is requires a few things, and in the certified fleet a few things more! For a start electrical redundancy, and that along with clever and ultra reliable systems also have to be developed.

I have seen this in the GAMI/TAT lab only a few months ago.

As for the pressure sensing plugs, they are expensive, and not in production yet either and unless they have found a more durable sensor at a fair price from years ago, this also might be an issue being worked on. I have not asked that question of late.

So what does this mean for you?

For a start, G100UL is of far greater benefit to you, and all of us, so the priority George and Tim have is correct. Next is the IO540 if correctly set up will have minimal exposure to anything more than mild detonation. This is of course a great benefit of PRISM in particular with a turbocharged engine.

Advancing the spark timing is not going to give you HP gains, in fact it can lead to losses. These are fixed speed engines basically, so fixed timing works nicely. I have seen the net effect of advancing/retarding the timing with PRISM, and it wrks brilliantly. Theta PP stays where you want it all the time. Get a Turbo engine hot, switch to mogas and run not rich enough and it detonates like ****, switch on PRISM and in an instant all is good in the world. Not making quite the same power but not making a grenade either!

So, if you asked me directly, fit two mags!

I hope to be back there in early 2013, maybe some more things will be revealed.
 
Years ago I made my own starting vibrators for a Bendix & Slick magneto?s for around $40.00. There?s no magic to these devices.

So Tom, any chance we could convince you to whip up some starting vibrators for use with retard breaker mags and offer them for sale as a substitute for the SlickStart Module? Even if you charged 5 times what it used to cost you to make one it would be a bargain.
 
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