Intro II

Hey all,

I figured since I actually started building my 10 I can pop up on voice on the forums. I'm currently working my way through the vertical stab and am at the point where I have to make the choice to prime or not prime. Its great getting knowledge from everyone and I know I'll be asking tons of questions as I continue. It seems every time I think I have something figured out you guys post something where I feel more lost.

Jesse
RV-10
Section 6-3

Excellent, welcome to the build! You are in great company and you will definitely get answers to most of your questions here, if not all. Well, except the infamous primer debate amoung others. Enjoy the project and savor every minute - it will end one day (we all hope).

To prime or not to prime

Here we go,

Only prime the steel parts and structural aluminum such as angles.

Pat

And it begins....
I would, and did, prime all the parts with a 2 part self etching primer. If you could see what the moisture has done to my 1980 Piper Archer, which was shiny aluminum on the inside top surface of the wings when I purchased it in 92. It now has minor surface discoloration which I treat every year with ACF50. It has been kept in a hanger it's whole life! There are several panels inside the wings of the Archer that were primed that look brand new.
Plan on using a gallon of primer and adding that respective weight.

If you purchase the QB kit, the inside surfaces come primed with a wash primer, which is porous and does not offer much protection from moisture, but at least it is something.

If you are going to paint the inside of the fuse with an interior color, you can incorporate that color as your prime, and just prime the tail cone and flying surfaces.

Welcome Jesse

If you build per the plans as much as possible, you will have very little problems.

Decide early on how much you want to spend, then add 10% for miscellaneous, 5% for each additional year you want to build, 25% if you have to have what all the other guys have.

Decide how long you want to take to build, how heavy you want your plane, what kind of performance you want, and what you want to haul.

29 hours on mine and loving it! Pants on now. Two short trips with the family so far. At 5500', 60% power, 2300 rpm, 9.7 gph, leaned to peak egt, 16 smpg at 141 kias. Better than our suv. Saving fuel to save for paint soon.

Get off this computer and out in the shop. Ask questions when you start scratching your head. We enjoy helping.

What Wayne said. Ask questions on the forum, use the search feature when you have a question. Don't be afraid to ask questions!

Noticed the Wars

All,

I noticed the primer wars and thought I had convinced myself exactly what I was going to do. Needless to say I'm doing a bit more research. I have about a week before I have to really make a decision. I have read and researched and now I'm going to show a little ignorance (which I hope to have corrected a little bit).

Pat. I understand the steel part, but the alum angle I want to make sure you're talking like the angle piece which goes on the trailing edges of structures.

Priming... Is there a middle ground. An ability to get some corrosion protection without going through the full-up priming route. Yes, I do realize I am trying to have my cake and eat it too. I was looking at Corrosion X to treat the insides of the VS and HS. Once upon a time, someone told me of a product like an insect fogger which you can do in the wings or VS/HS during your annual to give you added protection. I've searched but can't find....anyone heard of it?

In general, I plan on following the plans as much as possible since I really don't think I'm smart enough to do major modifications. I know I'm building a cross country family airplane. So comfort and range are competing factors.

One other question...How early do I need to start planning antenna placement and running wires. Or is that in the plans and I'm just not there yet.

Again, thanks for all the help. I'll have tons more questions as I go.

Jesse.

Jesse,
Corrosion X is not a permanent treatment, it gets applied periodically. Do not get this close to any surface that will be eventually painted. The painter will have a heck of a time getting the surface cleaned and the paint to stick. A middle route for priming may be a spray can self etching primer. PPG and SEM both make an excellent product. You still need a mask and a well ventilated area. It is definitely not as durable as the 2 part epoxy primers. You can remove it with lacquer thinner, but it does a fair job. I don't know that it is any less expensive, but you won't need a paint booth.

You can't start too early thinking about where you are going to locate antennas etc., but you certainly don't need to think about it while you are working on the empacone assy. The plans do not provide you a schematic, and I think Vans quit providing a "general" wiring harness as a accessory. If you do a search for wiring diagrams you can find several good examples. Things to think about are 2 electrical busses, or back up systems for all electric instruments. When you get to the fuse, you will want to run some conduit from the front to the rear to sneak wire through after the floor is riveted on.
There are a lot of build websites you can visit to see the progress and some of the innovative solutions to a lot of the issues you will face. Here are a couple
http://deemsrv10.com/album/index.html
http://combsfamily.phanfare.com/3161550.
http://70.28.98.10/HTML web site/RV_10_website/RV_10_site.html

Thanks

Bill,

Thanks for the posts. I saw some stuff about fogging corrosion control. Have you seen anything about that? Is there any access to spray corrosion X after the plane is assembled and painted? (I haven't even come close to finishing the VS yet and have never seen a completed 10)

Looking for as many options as I can before I get to the "point of no return".

Thanks.
Jesse

Hi Jesse

I was given great advice when we started our -6A.

Build the airplane from the inside...out. Run all the coax and wiring while you have easy access to the insides, not after the fuselage and wings are closed.

e.g. put the autopilot servos and brackets in before the final wing skins and also all lighting wires and antenna coaxes as well.

Best,

Pierre is right on. If you want to have a vor ant "cat whiskers" on top of vs, now is the time to run the rg-400 or conduit to run it through later. I installed mine on the bottom of tailcone and it works fine, but is a safety hazard for eyes.

When starting tailcone, plan for these possibilities...nav/strobe wires, vor coax, strobe power supply bracket(vans), elt bracket(vans), ahrs bracket(vans), aux battery mount(fab myself), ss seat belt cables/hardware instead of steel, pitch trim 5 cond cable, pitch ap servo bracket, vans pop rivet static ports(they work just fine) and fabricate magnetometer shelf. That is all I can think of right now. It cost more and takes more time now, but I only spent 2 hours or so crammed in my tailcone mostly riveting. I did all the rest from outside. I would have damaged something on me or the tailcone if I had waited until later.

Oh, I used SEM self etching primer from autobody store on anything not alclad or where vans recommended or where I thought moisture may accumulate later. Don't prime the trailing edge wedges as you want a strong proseal bond with these. You can use an alodine kit on them after machine csk operation. You do want to prime all angle...angle stock is used on each side of tailcone running fore-aft. You'll need a big vice and hammer for bending these. Have fun building!

There are several -10's in your state. Look in the rv white pages to the left and post on here for a ride. You will find that some minor modifications and accessories are nice/necessary, but most are not. I built to fly, not to just be building. Some will say not to do that, but I have built things with my hands my entire life. It was just like building a house...cost, planning and all. Now, flying with the family...two trips and getting more comfortable. Planning a trip to the SW in June or July.

Primer or not to primer

Well I did primer all my parts and will continue thru the entire project.

Reason. Being a A&P mechanic for over 50 years now, I have seen so many cancer eaten airplanes.

So for some small additional work to prep (scuff and wash and clean) prior to primering. It is worth the investment to know i have done what i can from the beginning to prevent the cancer now being seen in a lot of of airplanes.

Tail Guts Question

Willie et all,

Where can I find some info on the guts I need to put in the tail. The VOR antenna is a good idea. I really haven't given a ton of thought. Right now I was planning on putting an AFS EFIS package in the aircraft, but I don't know what all wiring it entails.

It makes sense to run the wires for lights and things, which is why I asked the question.

Also, I saw talk about a Safe T Trim system. Is this inplace of the trim package that Vans ships with the kit? What are some of the equipment which might need to go in the VS (since I'm just dimpling the skin right now)

Jesse

Jesse,
I still recommend that you not worry about all the wire runs while you are building the empacone. You can get to everything after it is built. If you choose to go with a cat wisker tail mounted vor antenna you should incorporate that into the build and order it now. I chose to use the Archer wing tip vor antennas. Most reports I got on them caused me not to worry about the performance.
The safety trim is a good option. It controls the elevator trim from running away with a stuck switch. This is also built into the Vertical Power systems circuit breakless power management. This also does not need to be decided at this point. Electronic stuff is changing at an exponential rate. Wait till you need to make the decision and then purchase your system, or the parts for the system that will require the installation. Mounting the servo in the wing is not a big deal, it can be done after they are completely closed. Not quite as easy, but it can be done.
The is not a need for conduit in the empacone. Most wires can be run in protective brade covers.
One thing that needs to be thought out is the tail light, the mounting of it and running the wires before you rivet the lower tail piece on!
Once again, cruze through other peoples build sites and see what they did, then decide what you want to do.
There is lot's of good advice out here, but in the end, you make the choice how you want it done!

Rudder trim

is like primer; some have it, others don't. If you want rudder trim, it is easier to do before you rivet the rudder, although it can be done after riveting. I have it and like it, especially on long x-countries. No need to keep a foot on the rudder pedals.

Jim Berry

No idea

I know I do want 3 axis trim on the aircraft. I had no idea rudder trim had to be (or should be to make it easier) installed this early. Good places to learn about that would be.....?

Thanks again,
Jesse

cosmof16 said:

I know I do want 3 axis trim on the aircraft. I had no idea rudder trim had to be (or should be to make it easier) installed this early. Good places to learn about that would be.....?

Thanks again,
Jesse

Click to expand...

It isn't. There are multiple methods for rudder trim.

1. Glue on a wedge externally to the rudder
2. The Vic Syracuse mod with a hinge on the trailing edge (done during build)
3. Cutting the trim control from the rudder, like Geoff Combs and several others have done (done during build)
4. A spring based rudder trim that can be installed at any time. Rumor has it a VAF advertiser is about ready to release an invovative products that will work on all RV's.

I started with #2, but I'm switched and will be using #4.

I highly recommend searching on these topics here on VAF and the Matronics list to read threads in the archives. You aren't asking anything new. You'll find a wealth of information, see a ton of personal opinions, and once in awhile some great facts and advice.

Also google RV-10 and start reading other builder's web sites. You may learn enough off these sites to ask the respective builder's why they made the decisions that they made.

Remember, just becuase one of use did something and are emphatic that it's a must have mod, doesn't necessarily mean that it's right for your build. You have to make that decision.

OK, deep breath. Lots of opinions here, incluidng mine. First, don't obsess over details right now. I've been building for 5+ years now and I'm finally just about ready to begin work on my cabin top and I still wrangle where to put stuff and when to install it almost every day. There's absolutely nothing that can't be added or changed later on in the build. Sure, some things are easier if done early, but you're just as likely to make a decision now that 18 or 24 mionths from now you'll want to reverse. My advice, press with the build your emp/tailcone just focusing on the plans and continue your education on what you think you want--remember build the plane you want, not the plane others want (there's a lot of nice to have mods but very few must have mods IMO-{flame suit on}). Having said that, my only recommendation for the emp would be if you think that you might want to put a VOR/GS antenna on the VS, run some conduit inside the VS before you close it up. Insignificant weight penalty if you decide to mount the anntenna someplace else, like on the bottom skin of tailcone under the HS. Good luck!

Oh yeah, as to primer, I started off priming everything with Stewarts (aka AFS) water-based, single stage, epoxy primer/sealer. When I got to the wings I just primed the ribs and and rivet lines (aka the faying surfaces). When I moved on to the fuse I basically stopped priming altogether (with a few small exceptions) and haven't looked back. Bottom line, if it gives you peace of mind, do it. Otherwise, take a look at your environment (ie is your airport right next to sea or in the desert) and compare that to the added work to prep and prime and see if it's worth the effort to you.

Research Corrosion Control Products and Techniques

I agree with Todd, and the only places I plan to do wide-scale priming is in areas of the fuselage that will later be painted as the final finish. The reason for my decision is been based on my research on proper corrosion protection using military references, blogs from people in the auto industry and hot-rodders/ car restorers. IMHO, SE primers (alone) don't provide corrosion protection, but merely create a permeable base coat for a secondary application of something that does, like paint.. You should research it yourself to make the decision that best suits you. There is plenty of advice on this topic, so no need to rehash it here.

P.S. Read the Vans section discussing priming in the manual that came with your kit.

Prime or not prime

As you will see from my signature I have built /rebuilt several aeroplanes, and doubled the size of my house. By that I mean I built on the new rooms, did the plumbing wiring the lot. For that reason my RV 4 has been almost a 20 year project.

I took the decision to prime everything early on using something called DeSoto Titanite. Not one part has corroded in that 20 years, but I have see a lot of part finished projects that were not primed and do have corrosion both on the alclad sheets and steel parts.

My friend just bout an RV7 and we are going to have to deal with some corrosion on the tank skin, that aeroplane was primed so obviously not a proper job in that area.

Ok I live in England, right in the middle and we get a lot of moisture in the air here. Somewhere in a very dry area is probably k not to prime, but I certainly would not want a ?40 to ?80K investment corroding out from under me.

Your choice though.

Best

I want to encourage new builders to go back and read Todd's post again. A good way to slow progress to a crawl is to obsess over decisions and options early on. There isn't anything that you can't add or change later. A highly experienced builder that knows exactly what he/she wants can save a sliver of time by planning ahead, an inexperienced builder can get so bogged in perceived complexity that they get discouraged and bogged down. Follow the plans, build the airplane you want, and not the one the other guys have, and you will do great.

I agree 100%, Just get started and worry about the rest later. It really doesn't make any real difference in the end when you run the wire etc. Spend this first build process learning how to work with the tools and the materials......