bill price
Member
i just purchased an RV-4. it has been in the San Diego Aerospace Museum for 15 years and I would like to install the heater fresh air option on it. Does anyone have any guidance on this?
Van's Air Force
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heater
- Thread starter bill price
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smokyray
Well Known Member
Bill, to be more specific, what exactly does it have right now? There are alot of different ways to go to install heat in RV4's, I use a welded Stainless muff that slides over one of my exhaust pipes. It has a bedspring wound inside it to act as a heat sink, something I learned flying in South Dakota in winter. I also only use 1" scat in and out of the muff to allow more heat displacement. The 1" scat goes into a Stainless firewall mounted heat box. It is very simple and works good. If you want fresh air and heat, one simple way to do is to unhook the scat from the heat muff and hook it directly from the baffle to the heat box during summertime. Then you get cool (well kind of)air off the baffling in summer and heat in winter. Trust me, if the airplane doesn't have any outside air venting, install 2 NACA vents on the fuselage or a pair of Larry Vetterman's fold-out vents for summer ops, you'll be glad you did!
RR
RR
Steve Sampson
Well Known Member
Rv10 style vents
Can you tell us where on the fuse' he has put them and do they close tight?
Thanks, Steve. #4478
Can you tell us where on the fuse' he has put them and do they close tight?
Thanks, Steve. #4478
Kahuna
Moderatoring
Both on the right side.
One was near the right calf muscle.
The other for the rear was near the right fore arm.
I made a joke that there was so much air coming in that the ball was 1/2 out.
I dont think the location along the fuse side is all that critical based on some tuft testing we did a couple years ago.
Best,
One was near the right calf muscle.
The other for the rear was near the right fore arm.
I made a joke that there was so much air coming in that the ball was 1/2 out.
I dont think the location along the fuse side is all that critical based on some tuft testing we did a couple years ago.
Best,
Steve Sampson
Well Known Member
RV10 vents in an RV4
Kahuna - thanks for that. I have them but have not got that far in the build yet. VANS recommended them for the -4 in the cataalogue (as well as the -10) so I thought I would give them a try. Good to know they should be a success, and a succesful location.
I just hope I can shut them tight in winter if the air comes in like that!
Thanks, Steve
#4478
Kahuna - thanks for that. I have them but have not got that far in the build yet. VANS recommended them for the -4 in the cataalogue (as well as the -10) so I thought I would give them a try. Good to know they should be a success, and a succesful location.
I just hope I can shut them tight in winter if the air comes in like that!
Thanks, Steve
#4478
Steve Sampson
Well Known Member
smokyray
Well Known Member
Full of Hot Air...
Hi Steve,
Ah, the age old problem of getting air, whatever the preferred temperature into a canopy covered airplane. In the F16 you set the ECS knob to "auto" and the cockpit temp is regulated (via 18th stage bleed air)automatically to 75F regardless of OAT. Even in the 130F ramp temps in Iraq, the cockpit stays cool with the canopy down. Since we don't have the luxury of the GE F110 engine in the RV4, getting outside air in in summer and warm air in winter has been an age-old dillemna.
My heater setup is discussed in an earlier portion of this thread however, I spent 5 years figuring out the best way to have good airflow in the warm Florida air I live in. I considered and designed a GEO metro air conditioner setup in place of my alternator. The a/c compressor ran off the fanbelt on the flywheel and I would use a B&C accessory case alternator in lieu of a vacuum pump. I planned to put the condensor under the baggage compartment vented by a large NACA scoop on the belly and the fan in my fwd baggage bay. I even had a on/off switch planned to prevent takeoffs with the A/C on. The entire system only added 9 lbs. However, 9 lbs is 9 lbs, I still have the drawings if you're interested..
In the very early days I simply had 2 scats on my engine baffling ducted into the cockpit, one for heat, one for cool. I didn't want to cut any holes in the fuselage, just didn't seem right. The heat was OK, the cool was warm unless at high altitude .
Lesson 1: Use the RV4's superior climb rate to attain cool air above 5K'. Lesson 2: to get alot of air in you have to make sure it can get out. I drilled holes in my baggage inspection door so the aft fuselage acts as a venturi, drawing the air out, noticed it right away. For ventilation I currently use 2 Larry Vetterman vents which are small versions of the RV10 vents above one of which brings in more air than 2 NACA vents. I have 3 Vari-EZ type NACA vents, 2 on the canopy skirt(mistake)and one at left calf level. The best place to put a NACA is under the left wing for the rear cockpit (aka RV8) and NACA or Vetterman vents in the fuselage sides at knee level on the fwd fuse.
Since your weather in the UK is alot cooler year round, heat will probably be a bigger player. The Bandit heater worked better in the below zero temps of South Dakota after I sealed all the air leaks in the cockpit first.
If I had it to do all over again I would engineer my cockpit heat ducting off my oil cooler. I would mount the cooler on the center of the "shelf" face up with a 3" scat going in and a flapper valve allowing either exit air (summer) or cockpit air(winter). You could even put a flapper upstream of the 3" scat to really keep the oil warm. Clean, free heat and no Carbon Monoxide worries.
Anyway Steve, as you would say, "Rig it right and Bob's your uncle"...
Rob Ray
Hi Steve,
Ah, the age old problem of getting air, whatever the preferred temperature into a canopy covered airplane. In the F16 you set the ECS knob to "auto" and the cockpit temp is regulated (via 18th stage bleed air)automatically to 75F regardless of OAT. Even in the 130F ramp temps in Iraq, the cockpit stays cool with the canopy down. Since we don't have the luxury of the GE F110 engine in the RV4, getting outside air in in summer and warm air in winter has been an age-old dillemna.
My heater setup is discussed in an earlier portion of this thread however, I spent 5 years figuring out the best way to have good airflow in the warm Florida air I live in. I considered and designed a GEO metro air conditioner setup in place of my alternator. The a/c compressor ran off the fanbelt on the flywheel and I would use a B&C accessory case alternator in lieu of a vacuum pump. I planned to put the condensor under the baggage compartment vented by a large NACA scoop on the belly and the fan in my fwd baggage bay. I even had a on/off switch planned to prevent takeoffs with the A/C on. The entire system only added 9 lbs. However, 9 lbs is 9 lbs, I still have the drawings if you're interested..
In the very early days I simply had 2 scats on my engine baffling ducted into the cockpit, one for heat, one for cool. I didn't want to cut any holes in the fuselage, just didn't seem right. The heat was OK, the cool was warm unless at high altitude .
Lesson 1: Use the RV4's superior climb rate to attain cool air above 5K'. Lesson 2: to get alot of air in you have to make sure it can get out. I drilled holes in my baggage inspection door so the aft fuselage acts as a venturi, drawing the air out, noticed it right away. For ventilation I currently use 2 Larry Vetterman vents which are small versions of the RV10 vents above one of which brings in more air than 2 NACA vents. I have 3 Vari-EZ type NACA vents, 2 on the canopy skirt(mistake)and one at left calf level. The best place to put a NACA is under the left wing for the rear cockpit (aka RV8) and NACA or Vetterman vents in the fuselage sides at knee level on the fwd fuse.
Since your weather in the UK is alot cooler year round, heat will probably be a bigger player. The Bandit heater worked better in the below zero temps of South Dakota after I sealed all the air leaks in the cockpit first.
If I had it to do all over again I would engineer my cockpit heat ducting off my oil cooler. I would mount the cooler on the center of the "shelf" face up with a 3" scat going in and a flapper valve allowing either exit air (summer) or cockpit air(winter). You could even put a flapper upstream of the 3" scat to really keep the oil warm. Clean, free heat and no Carbon Monoxide worries.
Anyway Steve, as you would say, "Rig it right and Bob's your uncle"...
Rob Ray
BruceMe
Well Known Member
Muff is better.
Rob... There are other posts on this. It may work to Florida cool, but I live in Maine, and not that magestic coastal Kennebunkport Maine, I live where it goes -30 two months. The oil cooler heater doesn't work in this version of cold. The oil stays cooled from the ambiant air and the vernotherm valve shuts down the flow to the cooler. The only tride and true heating system is the muff. I like muffs, they're so nice and warm on cold days. Also, CO detector have come a long way.
-Bruce
smokyray said:
Rob... There are other posts on this. It may work to Florida cool, but I live in Maine, and not that magestic coastal Kennebunkport Maine, I live where it goes -30 two months. The oil cooler heater doesn't work in this version of cold. The oil stays cooled from the ambiant air and the vernotherm valve shuts down the flow to the cooler. The only tride and true heating system is the muff. I like muffs, they're so nice and warm on cold days. Also, CO detector have come a long way.
-Bruce
Last edited:
Steve Sampson
Well Known Member
Oil cooler cabin heat.
Smokey _ I was interested you said if building again "If I had it to do all over again I would engineer my cockpit heat ducting off my oil cooler. ".Here in the UK it is never hot - well we had a record July but with August the British Summer has returned - and in fact we never have it cold. It is rarely below say 28F at ground level in winter. Even in Florida I would think if you are up at 8000' you are experiencing much colder temps than we are. We are usually down in the weeds because of air space.
The attraction to me is that if I just take the exit air from the cooler and pipe it into the cockpit through the normal vent I can dispose of a whole lot more parts which will reduce weight and simplify the area in front of the firewall. Bruce's reaction is understandable but I think their are a few aircraft plumbed this way. I have never got anyone who has significant experience to speak up for/against that arrangement though. I tried to get a thread going recently but no luck. There is an interesting bit in RVator 24 years.
Smokey / anyone else - anyone have experience? Thanks!
Smokey _ I was interested you said if building again "If I had it to do all over again I would engineer my cockpit heat ducting off my oil cooler. ".Here in the UK it is never hot - well we had a record July but with August the British Summer has returned - and in fact we never have it cold. It is rarely below say 28F at ground level in winter. Even in Florida I would think if you are up at 8000' you are experiencing much colder temps than we are. We are usually down in the weeds because of air space.
The attraction to me is that if I just take the exit air from the cooler and pipe it into the cockpit through the normal vent I can dispose of a whole lot more parts which will reduce weight and simplify the area in front of the firewall. Bruce's reaction is understandable but I think their are a few aircraft plumbed this way. I have never got anyone who has significant experience to speak up for/against that arrangement though. I tried to get a thread going recently but no luck. There is an interesting bit in RVator 24 years.
Smokey / anyone else - anyone have experience? Thanks!
smokyray
Well Known Member
Too hot to handle..
Hi Steve,
I have a heat muff on my RV4 with a small bedspring wound inside it for a heat sink and it works fine for my application. Temps at 8-10K average around 55-60F and on a sunny day you don't even need heat in the Bandit in the summer all the way up to the low teens. The winter is a different story and when I lived in South Dakota I had to do some serious cockpit leak eradication to avoid frostbite...
The reason I mentioned the oil cooler heat was I actually saw the setup on a 4 at a fly-in and it was slick. He had two cockpit knobs, one to close off the air into the oil cooler and the other to switch between exit air and cockpit heat. He claimed it worked great and provided lots of warm air. Seeing that my oil stayed at 190+ even in below zero temps in SD, he might be right although by definition the vernatherm should bypass the oil cooler if the oil never gets above 195, therefore negating your heat source.
The absolute best RV4 heater I have ever seen was an electric heater built by a 4 driver in Norway back in the early 90's. It is now sold through AircraftSpruce. A VariEZ buddy of mine modified a small hair dryer designed for automobile use and uses it as electric heat in his RV3. Larry Vetterman's friend from Colorado makes the High Country Heater, a double muff designed to go over 2 pipes on a Vetterman system for extreme cold climates. It works very well also.
The options are out there, I like simple and so ar the muff system works. I made mine from scratch from a 1/8" thick SS tube with 1" flanges for Scat welded onto it. Put a SS heater box on the firewall and "Bob's your uncle"...
Cheers..
RR
Hi Steve,
I have a heat muff on my RV4 with a small bedspring wound inside it for a heat sink and it works fine for my application. Temps at 8-10K average around 55-60F and on a sunny day you don't even need heat in the Bandit in the summer all the way up to the low teens. The winter is a different story and when I lived in South Dakota I had to do some serious cockpit leak eradication to avoid frostbite...
The reason I mentioned the oil cooler heat was I actually saw the setup on a 4 at a fly-in and it was slick. He had two cockpit knobs, one to close off the air into the oil cooler and the other to switch between exit air and cockpit heat. He claimed it worked great and provided lots of warm air. Seeing that my oil stayed at 190+ even in below zero temps in SD, he might be right although by definition the vernatherm should bypass the oil cooler if the oil never gets above 195, therefore negating your heat source.
The absolute best RV4 heater I have ever seen was an electric heater built by a 4 driver in Norway back in the early 90's. It is now sold through AircraftSpruce. A VariEZ buddy of mine modified a small hair dryer designed for automobile use and uses it as electric heat in his RV3. Larry Vetterman's friend from Colorado makes the High Country Heater, a double muff designed to go over 2 pipes on a Vetterman system for extreme cold climates. It works very well also.
The options are out there, I like simple and so ar the muff system works. I made mine from scratch from a 1/8" thick SS tube with 1" flanges for Scat welded onto it. Put a SS heater box on the firewall and "Bob's your uncle"...
Cheers..
RR
Steve Sampson
Well Known Member
Oil cooler cabin heat.
Bruce, the way I view weight is that 1 lbs is a lot. Its perhpas 2% of the bagage allowance if you say 50lbs for bags! (Also, there are quite a lot of discretionary 1 lbs.)
Otherwise, I dont see any extra bits. I just need to collect the heat back into SCAT at the oil cooler and take it to the vent where it will either go into the cabin or overboard, but I would have had that anyway.
I'll give it a go.
Bruce, the way I view weight is that 1 lbs is a lot. Its perhpas 2% of the bagage allowance if you say 50lbs for bags! (Also, there are quite a lot of discretionary 1 lbs.)
Otherwise, I dont see any extra bits. I just need to collect the heat back into SCAT at the oil cooler and take it to the vent where it will either go into the cabin or overboard, but I would have had that anyway.
I'll give it a go.
High Country Heater
Hello all,
up here in the great white north, cabin heat can determine the extent of your off season, eh. Long term I want to mount skiis on my baby and so need to upgrade the cabin heat. In the mean time, I want to stay warm enough, long enough to get to Florida off season.
The original builder scavenged exhaust from the oil cooler and ducted out an open ended cheek cowl. A small flapper would divert the exhaust air into the cabin. Unfortunately, the oil doesn't seem to get hot enough to scavenge warm enough air. The ducting is also the mount for the cooler and so significant modifications will require extensive work.
There is a naca vent in the lower left cowling which scats through the left cheek cowl to another flapper to divert fresh air into the cabin. It would be easy enough to scat from the naca to a heat muff and up to the duct. Theoretically, the easiest and quickest solution for me which isn't working out so easy and quick.
I have an O-320 with Vetterman 4 pipe exhaust. Smokey mentioned a High Country Heater which sounds like just the ticket for me, but I cannot find it online, can anyone help?
If anyone else found a commercially available slap on muff that will fit, pls also let me know. The aircraft spruce ones don't fit. If you made your own and care to share your genius, I will pay due homage.
Thanks
Jim
Hello all,
up here in the great white north, cabin heat can determine the extent of your off season, eh. Long term I want to mount skiis on my baby and so need to upgrade the cabin heat. In the mean time, I want to stay warm enough, long enough to get to Florida off season.
The original builder scavenged exhaust from the oil cooler and ducted out an open ended cheek cowl. A small flapper would divert the exhaust air into the cabin. Unfortunately, the oil doesn't seem to get hot enough to scavenge warm enough air. The ducting is also the mount for the cooler and so significant modifications will require extensive work.
There is a naca vent in the lower left cowling which scats through the left cheek cowl to another flapper to divert fresh air into the cabin. It would be easy enough to scat from the naca to a heat muff and up to the duct. Theoretically, the easiest and quickest solution for me which isn't working out so easy and quick.
I have an O-320 with Vetterman 4 pipe exhaust. Smokey mentioned a High Country Heater which sounds like just the ticket for me, but I cannot find it online, can anyone help?
If anyone else found a commercially available slap on muff that will fit, pls also let me know. The aircraft spruce ones don't fit. If you made your own and care to share your genius, I will pay due homage.
Thanks
Jim
southtarnation
Well Known Member
fixnflyguy
Well Known Member
Made my own
I made one that fits both R/H pipes of the vetterman 4 pipe system..works very well. I give up trying to upload pictures, so if you send a PM with an Email, I can send some good ones.
I made one that fits both R/H pipes of the vetterman 4 pipe system..works very well. I give up trying to upload pictures, so if you send a PM with an Email, I can send some good ones.
Russ McCutcheon
Well Known Member
My Dad just put the Vetterman 4 pipe on his RV-4/0-320 he got a muff that went over the two right side pipes, probably from Vetterman but maybe from Van's.
I installed heat and air in my -3 using components from Robin's Wings. The -3 has very little room between the engine and firewall so I used 1.5" scat tubes and still had to squeeze them oval in some places. Robin's sells stuff that fits that size tube. On the right side, air is taken from the rear baffle to the heat muff, then to an air valve on the upper right side of the firewall and there is no hose or distributor behind the firewall. On the left side, air is taken from the rear baffle, goes to another air valve on the firewall, then to an eyeball vent below the panel. You could plumb both heat and air through the eyeball but it's not needed in my plane. Works well on my -3 but can't say how well it would do on a -4. I used two air valves because nothing I could work out with one that mixed hot and cold air would fit.
