Rear Controls (again)

I'm in the process of purchasing a flying RV-4. It's a nice airplane but doesn't include rear controls other than a stick. I don't feel comfortable flying it without a thorough checkout. Also, it has a >200HP engine so I need to get my high-performance signoff, too. Like Skyhook, I'd like to get this training and future training/checkouts such as BFR in it. The plane is configured for IFR and it might be nice to finish my IFR training in it though it's probably a long shot given the lack of instrument visibility from the rear seat.

I left a message for my preferred CFI but haven't heard back yet. I'm guessing he'll want at least a throttle and rudder pedals. To help get a head start, does anyone here have an opinion about the minimum set of rear controls for dual instruction in an RV-4? Here's what I'm guessing would be a list of controls in order of decreasing importance:
Rudder pedals
Throttle
Elevator trim
PTT
Prop
Mixture

I see that Van's offers a rear rudder pedal kit for the 4 but I've heard it said that they leave something to be desired. I've never seen one so I don't know what might be wrong with it. One thing I would want is the ability to easily remove them or fold them out of the way.

I emailed DJM about the rear quadrant but haven't heard back yet.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Kev

Rear controls

The rear pedals are nothing but a section of 3/8 4130 tube slotted & bolted to the front pedal just above the cable of the rudder pedal. They have a short 90' with a gusset welded on the back end for the foot. They run through a piece of panel just above the spar. They are marginal at best. I flew back there last week for 1/2 hour & didn't know if I would ever walk again. Anyone over 5'10'' would have problems. @ 6'1" I have my front seat moved back as far as possible, this required me to cut rear stick down to clear the front seat back. I would rather walk, than ride back there again. Find a short light CFI! The front seat in a high power -4 is the best ride of all of the RV's. I started to look for a -8 with CS/prop, but was unable to find one, now wouldn't trade, and have flown all of them. Enjoy.

Gary

Re: Rear Controls

Couple things here pirk my attention:

kcameron said:

It's a nice airplane but doesn't include rear controls other than a stick. I don't feel comfortable flying it without a thorough checkout.

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To the best of my knowledge there aren't any tandem RVs that meet "rear-seat solo" controllability. They all suck. But dont consider this a draw back. Your desire for additional training is good, see one of the transition instructors. The list of them is posted somewhere on this (VAF) site. They will train you in the RV-6A, you will then nead to get tailwheel comfortable (if you aren't already). If you're worried about first flight solo, how do you think all those RV-3's, P-51's, Midget-Mustangs, etc etc flew first? It's a good plane, with propper training, it's a non-event.

kcameron said:

Also, it has a >200HP engine

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What does the dataplate on the engine say... If it's a tweeked O-360, it probably says 200... That means, no high perf required. If it says something higher, then yup. It's required. I got my high perf sign off well after I flew my RV-3, and the 182 I did it in was totally tame in comparison. I'm not really sure I understand what the FAA wants in the high-perf sign-off, but the applicable benifits regarding the RV is to STAY AHEAD of it. Plan your decents, plan you pattern. They will come up quite a bit faster than you may be used to in spam.

kcameron said:

The plane is configured for IFR I left a message for my preferred CFI but haven't heard back yet. I'm guessing he'll want at least a throttle and rudder pedals.

Click to expand...

Instrument instruction is probably a no-go but not for the reasons you site. You just can't see the instruments from the rear seat. So he can't easily critique your technique. C-172's make great instrument trainers... RV-4s kinda suck at this. Many posts in here on why RV's make lousy instrument platforms. But limit IFR, makes a great deal of sense on a x-country oriented plane. Just know the limitations, this is probably one.

-Bruce
RV-4 N254MM (finishing up)
CP-CFII
Caribou, Maine

Thanks Gary. That's good info. Anyone have pictures or description of a better system for RV-4 rear pedals?

Kev

There is a much better set of rear rudder pedals for the RV4....

We just installed a full set of "real" rudder pedals in the back of a -4 in my shop, along with a rear throttle and foot wells. No brakes, but the rudder pedals are mounted just like real ones, and the easiest way to explain them is you need to see them. I don't have any pictures, but it's a common addition from Van's...not the crappy ones described above. It's an actual kit we got from Van'ss To visualize, they are much like the rear pedals in a citabria, and link to the front pedals with a rigid tube...same with the rear throttle.

Anyway, it's a fairly easy add to do the pedals and throttle when the plane is torn apart or being built. I don't know about a retrofit, the one in our shop is a rebuild of a crashed airplane so we had everything tore apart anyway.

Just my 2 cents as usual.

Cheers,
Stein.

Bruce and Steve: Thanks for the advice.

I'll check with Van's regarding their pedal kit.

I'll find out what the engine dataplate says though I don't know why it matters. Does the "high-perf" FAR section mention the dataplate?

Kev

High performance

The FAA wants you to have a high-performance endorsement in your log book to operate an airplane with *more* than 200HP. Just like a tail wheel endorsement, only for engine HP.

I guess they want to make sure you know how much right rudder to apply on takeoff, slowflight, etc

Thanks Alan,

I get that the FAA requires a high-perf endorsement for >200HP. What I'm asking is whether the engine's dataplate is the only important source of information for that. Hypothetically, what if I have a engine that's been souped up to 250HP after the dataplate that shows 199HP is affixed? What if the engine doesn't have a dataplate at all? I'm asking what the legal requirement is; not just what I can get away with.

Kev

Ah, ok

Well, that I can't help you with.... I don't think I'd firt with disaster tho, getting a HP check out is a piece of cake. Grab your instructor and go get an hour of dual and it's done. I did the the morning before I flew my C182 back from Kansas. 4 trips around the patch, slowl flight, short, soft, normal takeoffs and one stall and I was done.

As for how to prove (or not). In an experimental, I'm sure it would be based upon your log books. You install a stock O-360. Either 160 or 180 HP, then you put the record of your changes in there and I'd suspect that they could figure out effective HP gains based on descriptions. If it's an angle valve vs a straight, they also can figure out from there.

Other thing to think about is "what if you have a problem". I doubt your insurance would pay, etc if they found out that you were flying something different than they insured. In this case a highly modified engine that wasn't well documented.

Not playing cop by any means to each their own. Just be careful. Hope you all saw that Kevin Eldredge crashed his Nemisis NXT today, destroying it. It also had a brand new Lycoming IO-540 NXT engine in it. Changing the performance of any engine also changes the "break points".

http://www.relentlessairracing.com/
http://www.aero-news.net/

These guys are gonna have a hard time dominating Reno's sport class if they can't keep these things flying. John Sharps broke twice during quailifing and at the finals, and Kevin had had gear troubles the week before the race. Niether were a sure bet and now we are short one.

I recently checked out a new RV8 owner from the back seat with the "tab" RV8 pedals installed. Before he climbed in the 8, he rode 5 hrs with a RV check-out guy in Okechobee, FL. The RV8 flight was a non-event.
The very first RV I ever flew was my RV4 on the test flight, albeit I have 3K of TW time. If you get a thorough TW check-out, jump in and go fly. I recently helped a friend get his RV4 project flying. He is a 1000 hour Tcraft driver and I refused to go with him on his first flight...I said "go fly"...he did fine!

My 2 cents...

Rob Ray

aadamson said:

I guess they want to make sure you know how much left rudder to apply on takeoff, slowflight, etc

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you in Russia?

kcameron said:

I'm in the process of purchasing a flying RV-4. It's a nice airplane but doesn't include rear controls other than a stick. I don't feel comfortable flying it without a thorough checkout.

Click to expand...

I just bought a 4 ,
Ive flown a 6A a few times before and found the transition to be very easy
If you never flown a rv before i would def. try to find somone to give you a ride and let you land it.

Ah shoot

Hslightnin said:

you in Russia?

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Too much YAK time I guess....

If you haven't done your checkout yet, try to get one in a -6 or -7. Very similar characteristics..if you do fine with those, you'll do fine in a -4. I transitioned to my -4 by flying in the back seat with the previous owner in the front seat. (no controls in the back but the stick) I found it to be very counter-productive. I learned more when I put a CFI in the back seat (who also has an RV-4) and I flew the front seat. He was comfortable enough with me to trust me on the pedals and power...really not a big deal. I personally wouldn't go through the weight, space, and work required to put pedals, throttle, etc in the back seat, if it's only for training purposes.

Once I had my sign off (after about 2 hours) I jumped in by myself and just flew it until I figured it out with my own methods. Very easy to fly and land..the hardest part is slowing it down!

Thanks for all the advice, guys. I just finished the checkout in my plane today. It turns out the instructor only wanted a rear throttle. The seller kindly offered to install it for me so I didn't have to build anything! The checkout spanned 5 days:
1) I flew back seat working just the stick and throttle.
We did some air work then worked the pattern for awhile.
2) Went to a nearby grass strip:
I flew the back seat for a few landings to get the feel of it.
I flew front seat with the instructor in the rear for several passes.
Soloed.
3-5) I flew front seat at my local paved strip for a few passes then finished the day solo.

It wasn't too difficult but it took me awhile to get used to:
a) Much greater acceleration on takeoff than anything I'd flown before.
b) Rapid ascent rate.
c) Constant speed prop.
d) Higher sink rate on approach.
e) Lower distance to the runway on touchdown.
f) Greater tendency to bounce.

The 230HP/constant speed combination is thrilling! I love this airplane. I'm confident the feeling will grow as I explore it more and do more things in it.

230HP with CS prop??? My goodness that must climb like a beast...I thought my 200HP/FP was a good combination!

Rocket

Doesn't 230 HP make it a Harmon Rocket?
Mark
Flying -6

Nah. Not quite a rocket. Besides being 30-100 HP shy of the HP range of a rocket, I still have the RV4 wings. That limits top speed and I'll have to be more careful about overloading them. On the other hand, I retain the low stall speed on an RV4.

I've seen sustained climbs of > 2000 fpm. I'll have to run more experiments to determine the true max climb rate. I also have some tuning to do. The tach only reads 2600 RPM on takeoff and initial climb. Also, I think it's running too rich at max power.