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Tip: Liquid Shim

Rick6a

Well Known Member
I adopted a technique long used on the combat aircraft production line that served my homebuilding purposes very well. During the construction process, even military aircraft frequently have situations in which gaps between mating parts occur and must be shimmed prior to permanently fastening together. Particularily problematic is a "tapering gap" condition. Frequently, mating the wheel pants to the brackets exposes this condition and I'll address that in a moment.

We've all seen RV's with puckers in the fuselage skin, usually at an intersection of longeron and bulkhead or stringer. This is caused by riveting the gap closed rather than taking the time to shim out the open void between the parts. On the production line, a worker can easily spends hours and hours with a piece of aluminum shim stock and sanding disc in an attempt to fashion a shim, tapered or otherwise to fit acceptably within the confines of the gap. In an effort to reduce manhour costs and enhance quality, a space age material was developed to address this tedius process. I don't know what the actual material was, we production types simply referred to it as "liquid shim." While the exotic material we used at McDonnell-Douglas is not generally available, I often made up an ersatz home brew which consisted of nothing more than West System epoxy with lots of cotton flox mixed in (roughly to the consistency of peanut butter) to make it structural. The process goes far faster than it sounds. After masking off the local area with bits of tape, the mixture is forced into the gap between the parts (i.e. bulkhead and skin) until some of it oozes from around the parts and out the rivet hole. Wearing latex gloves helps. The liquid shim will find its way throughout the void and fill in the gap. Using a plastic scraper, clean up the excess ooze-out from around the general area to avoid excessive sanding later. After allowing the mixture to cure overnight, the hole is then reopened by passing a drill bit through it, the countersink retouched and finally the rivet shot. There you have it...a perfectly pucker free exterior skin.

Among the most important applications for liquid shim I found was precisely fitting the wheel pants to their mating metal brackets. On my RV, virtually all of the brackets met the interior of the wheel pants with a very noticeable and often tapering gap. It is tempting to simply torque down the screws mating the pants to the naturally flexible brackets but I believe all this really does is "preload" the brackets with an undo and constant stress and doing so is quite likely to be a major reason why so many builders have reported cracking of the brackets over time. To address this common problem, an after-market stainless steel type wheel pant bracket became available. By shimming the brackets to the pants precisely in the first place, I believe the problem would go away. That's only my opinion though.

Some builders have used a variation of this technique to precisely "float" hinge halves into place particularily on the flaps and cowling. In fact, I long used a similiar technique to help insure interchangeability between avionics doors on the T-45 nose cone. It was required you had to be able to remove the piano wire holding the hinge halves together with slight finger pressure alone, no needle nose pliers or vice grips allowed, and demonstrate this with any random door pulled from stock. Believe me, it's not as easy as you might suppose. Just imagine removing a flap from your RV and having it fit the RV parked next to you! Liquid shim proved to be the only realistic way to consistently maintain random door interchangeability in part by liquid shimming its mating hinge half to the structure on the nose cone door thus assuring repeatability.

There you have it....an easy building technique I'm sure you can find any number of situations to use it in.

Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla"
 
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Thanks Rick! I really like this idea and will use it to smooth out a couple of lingering dents in my fuse.
 
BJohnson said:
Liquid Shim = Hysol EA 9394

http://www.loctiteaero.com/Images/Datasheet_PDF/Hysol_EA_9394.pdf

Also is an excellent paste adhesive with good high temp strength.
Thank you Brice!

That link really jogged my memory. Hysol is EXACTLY the material we used in production. Imagine mating a very large skin....the size of a couple of ping-pong tables onto a structure containing machined ribs, spars, intercostals......you name it. It is a virtual certainty that gaps will occur in any number of random and not so random places. Hysol....."liquid shim"......was applied in virtually the same manner as proseal but the intent is to fill in all voids and gaps between the mating surfaces. It cures very hard and generates A LOT of dust particles when sanded, respiratory protection is mandatory.

I am constantly amazed that the Internet has truly democratized the sharing of information for the benefit of all. Thanks again Brice for sharing the link and reacquainting me with an exotic material I worked with countless times yet had forgotten about years ago.
 
Rick,

Is that liquid shim considered to be 'structural'? I'll probably have to do a little shimming between nose ribs and joint plates to make a nice transition between the wing leading edge and fuel tanks. Hysol sounds better than working down a piece of aluminum, but I'd be riveting through it.

Anybody have an idea where you could find this stuff? I didn't find much useful info on Google.

Thanks,

Dave
 
Liquid Salvation!

Amen to all of the above. I know first-hand of 2 major airframers where life would be a lot more complicated without liquid shim. Also useful is the "combination shim" approach: getting a solid shim fitted so that it's close, then using the liquid shim to fine tune the fit. A further refinement of the technique is to allow the shim to cure, then apply a bead of sealant along the edges. Reason being that liquid shim can become brittle, crack, and (in some cases) fall out. The extra weight of the sealant bead is justified by the fact that it traps the shim, so it stays where you want it.
I've used good old J B Weld with great success as a liquid shim at home.
 
Thermos said:
......considered to be 'structural'? ......Hysol sounds better than working down a piece of aluminum, but I'd be riveting through it....Anybody have an idea where you could find this stuff?....Dave
Dave,

The real deal (Hysol) is normally drilled through after cure. There are some variations of Hysol and I cannot say for certain if 9394 is the precise mix I used. Reading the data sheet, it sure seems like it though. Interestingly, it is even referred to as liquid shim.....I thought that term was "shop slang." Like many items we used on the production floor, I tend to doubt it is even available for the retail trade. Note that it is mixed 100 parts to 17 parts by weight.

Using West system epoxy with cotton flox as I mentioned has worked very well as a "liquid shim" substitute for me. After cure, it drills very well. Using a 3X rivet gun seems to have no effect at all even when setting AD4 rivets. I have noticed no degradation anywhere I have applied it. Inside the fuselage, it is Akzo primed like everything else and you wouldn't even know it is there. Bonded to the interior of the wheel pants, a location where it is (arguably) subject to the most stress, it looks as good today as the day I applied it...approximately 300 landings and a tire rotation later. But prudence dictates I must qualify my personal anecdotal experience with a familiar caveat...YMMV.
 
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I have used Hysol products for alot of things and it is a great product, shelf life is not that long and you usually have to buy a fair quantity depending on the product.


My source has been,

E.V. Roberts
8500 Steller Dr
Culver City, Ca 90232
310-204-6159
 
EA 9394

This is an adhesive. The irony of riveting through it is that many are using this for bonded structure to eliminate mechinical fastners. Your milage may vary based on surface prep, mixing, and cure conditions. I've never seen anyone rivet through it, but I can ask around.
 
1 year shelf life

Indigo said:
I have used Hysol products for alot of things and it is a great product, shelf life is not that long and you usually have to buy a fair quantity depending on the product.


My source has been,

E.V. Roberts
8500 Steller Dr
Culver City, Ca 90232
310-204-6159

Actually, the shelf life is not too bad - it's one year at 77F according to the data sheet listed previously...

http://www.loctiteaero.com/Images/Datasheet_PDF/Hysol_EA_9394.pdf

Do you know what is the smallest package and cost is from EV Roberts?

gil in Tucson - but I used to live a mile or so away from EV Roberts...
 
It has been awhile since i have purchased some adhesive from them, the quantity size is usually one quart size but i have purchased 50 gram and 100 gram packs of certain styles of Hysol products. You will have to call and tell then what product you are ordering and see what size they come in.
 
JB Weld

I needed some between the forward skin of the tip up canopy frame and the bent tube that supports the aft portion of the glaresield, at the outboard portions of the bends. JB Weld works well and doesn't drip.
 
When I worked for Cessna Aircraft in Citation factory flight fest, we used a Hysol product called EA9309. It was more of an adhesive than shim, but was used for both. It was available in a small quantity (two part plastic packet), probably a couple of ounces at the most. Remove the divider, give it a 10 second zap in a microwave to allow it to mix easier, mix the envelope, cut the corner and use. When it had set, it too was workable either by sanding or filing. Neat stuff.

Sure wish I still had access to their amost expired shelf life stock... :D
 
Re; riveting through a West System and flox mixture, why not a simple homebuilders test? Mix an epoxy and flox sample, put some 1/8" layers between aluminum coupons. Next day bandsaw them into 1/2" wide strips. Beat he*l out of them with a flush set and back rivet plate, see if the filler falls out.

For those who have not done the Rutan thing, edges and sharp corners in a moldless composite get what is known as a flox core. It serves as an internal bond filet as well as greatly improving impact strength. Years ago I rolled some flox/epoxy balls using excess Safety-Poxy from a layup task. Two days later I put them on the concrete floor and beat them with a claw hammer. That exercise convinced me; flox/epoxy toughness is very good.
 
Structural shims

Sounds Great and all the applications sounded like non-structural, but if you are talking airframe, metal to metal use metal shims. Its a lot of work to grind down aluminum to a tapper or to a supper thin gauge but its needed for the strength of the joint. Two reasons, clamp up strength and bearing strength (edge of hole).

In general shims increase the eccentricity of the "load path" and are not desirable, but if gap is not too great than effect negligible.
 
??????

General Dynamics- St Loius.....
Now what was that stuff that was used to bond F-16 wings in the late 80's-90's it came in gallons and had a shelf life....???
JB weld !! :D
 
AZtailwind said:
General Dynamics- St Loius.....Now what was that stuff that was used to bond F-16 wings in the late 80's-90's it came in gallons and had a shelf life....??? JB weld !! :D
Actually it is the F/A-18 Hornet you are referring to, and the company is (was) McDonnell-Douglas. The following procedure is a general overview and is the same for both the upper and lower wing skins. A skin is temporarily fitted to the structure which is oriented in the vertical position. Using a magic marker, an outline of the structure is made on the inner skin surface, a graphite composite material ranging in thickness from 1/4" to 3/4". The outlined area sort of resembles an enormous 2"-4" wide grid pattern when you are done. Do not think of the wing structure in the conventional sense....ribs lined up symetrically along a main spar and trailing edge.....it is a much more complicated structure than that. The skin is then removed and within the confines of the outline, the skin surface is roughed and cleaned to enhance the holding power of the liquid shim material. The structure itself is given a liberal application of parting agent, modeling clay used to keep the shim out of certain areas. Liquid shim is mixed and manually stuffed into Semco cartridges. It is generously applied to the skin using a spreader nozzle fitted to the Semco making sure to cover all areas within the magic marker outline. Using a hoist because the skin is very heavy, it is carefully refitted back into place and held fast using a series of 3/16" draw buttons which are basically clecos on steriods. Naturally, much of the liquid shim gets squeezed out from between the structure and the skin. After the shim dries, the skin is drilled for all those fasteners, many hundreds of holes. After the drill-out is complete, the skin is pounded free of the structure using a dead blow mallet. If the parting agent did its work, the skin will break loose relatively easily. What follows is not fun. The skin is secured to a holding jig to more easily remove all that excess liquid shim squeeze out from it. Most often, a die grinder fitted with a 80-120 grit sanding disk is the tool of choice. The liquid shim is feathered to a smooth transition everywhere, including burrs that might occur around all those previously drilled holes. It is obvious that the liquid shim remaining is relatively thick in some areas, thin to non existant in others. All traces of parting agent are removed from the structure while the skin is countersunk. How would you like to machine countersink graphite wing skins 8 hours a day generating lots of itchy smudgy black graphite dust while doing so? The smallest countersink is 3/16" and the largest is 5/8". Every hole location on that skin is numbered and charted. A QA inspector will hold you to close tolerances on every single hole you countersink. Finally the skin is permanently reattached to its mating structure. The holes are then filled with fasteners. That is, in a nutshell how we did it.
 
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Homebrew LS - tested

DanH said:
Re; riveting through a West System and flox mixture, why not a simple homebuilders test?

I mixed up some home brew liquid shim (West epoxy and flox) to fill the KNOWN ISSUE (Van's!!) of the gap that occurs on tip up canopy frames between the tube and top skin. After curing, I drilled, countersunk, and riveted. All came out very smooth and I'll wager to any structural analyst to try and break this stuff!!
 
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