What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Canadian placards / decals ?

RickWoodall

RickWoodall

Well Known Member
Working through the MDRA forms and trying to figure out what are the actual rules on what I need to have made up for placards, control decals etc.

Registration size and location on plane? What actual placards are needed in baggage area, on panel etc and what they have to say. Sizes etc?

MDRA documents say stuff like "is emergency canopy release placarded?"
There is section 27 but its pretty light on details.
Just wonder if someone has more specific detailed requirements that I have not found yet?

Rumour has it they want some in frech too...is that fact or just some goofy urban myth?

Any links appreciated.
 
Here is what I needed when importing my -4:

A placard stating:
YOU FLY IN THIS AIRCRAFT AT YOUR OWN RISK. THIS AIRCRAFT DOES NOT COMPLY WITH INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED STANDARDS.

A placard stating:
VOUS VOLEZ A BORD DE CET AERONEF A VOS PROPRES RISQUES. CET AERONEF N’EST PAS CONFORME AUX NORMES RECONNUES A L’ECHELLE INTERNATIONALE

The letters on the above two needed to be 3/8" high, and the location where the passenger can see them. The French one doesn't seem to be sticky enough, oh well.

A placard stating maximum baggage load near the baggage area.

A placard stating Aerobatic Manoeuvres Prohibited

All switches labelled. Mixture labelled for direction to push/pull for fuel cutoff.

Levers for opening the canopy labelled as to direction to move to open, both inside and out.

I used Vans registration tag and filled out all the boxes. As I recall the location just needs to be somewhere visible.
 
eh oui? Le country est bilingual.

Hey Rick,
isn't it a scream that our feds are protecting unknowing UNILINGUAL francophone passengers from climbing into our little deathtraps!...after the same feds have required that it be inspected and APPROVED for flight!
...sorta like our local airport has signs in 7 languages directing you to the Tim Hortons in the terminal, but the announcement that says " do not leave your suitcase full of explosives unattended " is in English only, ( you know, for all the english terrorists!)

..but thanks Mark for your reply, I bought a complete RV-9a, and didn't look to hard for the regs and placarding. I wasn't aware of the baggage and egress labelling, so I think I'd better get on that!
I also thought I'd do a couple for the outside showing where the ELT was, and how to open the slider, which the uninitiated have trouble with, ( you know, lift the back handle, while pulling on the front, while turning the latch with your 3rd hand etc.)

I'd love to see a summary of ALL the required placards....any MDRA's out there that have them handy?

thx
 
It's ridiculous, I know.

There's not likely to be any "french-only" passenger's ever in my plane as there simply aren't many within a tank's distance of my home base. There's far more chances of other languages but again, if they can't understand english, what are they doing in my plane? This is not a commercial aircraft and only has one passenger seat! That seat could be argued as a crew seat. Since english is the world-wide official language of aviation, the placards should be english only. What's next? Do all the instruments and switches have to be labelled in multi languages too?

Further, what if I and all my friends (the likely passengers) spoke neither english or french??? What language must the placards be then?

Sheeesh. Sorry for the rant but this problem really bugs me. I too would like to hear a rep of the MDRA offer a reasonable explanation and not just, "that's the rules" or "that's the way it's always been done" BS.

Bevan
 
leaving aside

whether bilingual placarding should be required (a perhaps less interesting discussion than the bilingual air traffic communications allowed in Canadian airspace) place blame where it is due - "MD-RA" are "Ministerial delegates" - that is, they have delegated authority from the Minister of Transport to apply (some of) the laws for which the Minister of Transport has reponsibility. So, any complaint about what those laws say should be directed the the Minister of Transport - not to MD-RA.
Bill Brooks
Ottawa Canada
RV-6A finishing
 
The lettering for the
' You fly are your own risk' has to be in both English and French. All the others are in English only. The lettering size does not matter so long as the passenger can read it either entering the plane or directly in front of them while seated. I have always used a small placard on the glove box lid or area with 10pt typing and the inspectors have been happy with that. The main point being that the passenger can read it.
 
any complaint about what those laws say should be directed the the Minister of Transport - not to MD-RA. [/QUOTE said:
Yes I suppose it is like trying to debate with the radar gun equiped police officer that the speed limit should be set higher. But the MDRA is also our representative to the MOT therefore complaining to the MDRA first is the normal chain of command. If there is no saticefaction there, then by all means go over their heads.

The main point being that the passenger can read it.[/QUOTE said:
Having it in both "official" languages does not guarantee that the passenger can read it. It is merely a politically correct attempt to communicate the info.

Maybe I'll have to name my airplane "politically incorrect". :)

Now don't get me started on the unreasonable restrictions on registration letters/numbers.

Bevan
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Lycosaurus said:
Here's a good document from Jack Dueck summarizing the required placards. Note that there are a couple of spelling mistakes, but otherwise a good reference.

http://www.eaahighriver.org/Home_Building/TechnicalReference/BuildingPt11.pdf
Click to expand...

With all due respect to Jack, who has spent a lot of time educating builders, I found that some of his articles have significant technical errors and spelling errors. For example, 6 inches does NOT equal 5.9 cm.

What this means is that you need to go straight to the source to get reliable information. For example, here is the key regulation for Amateur-builts in Canada:

http://www.md-ra.com/pdfs/STD_507_AUG_06.pdf

All of the placards are covered in this document.

Here's the information on registration marks:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/publications/tp11957-chapter4-ident-92.htm

This stuff has been significantly clarified since my first project, but you should still consult with your local MD-RA inspector.

Thanks, Vern
 
placards

just my $.02

As I read it, if the Airworthiness warning is on the exterior, it has to be 3/8", if inside, it has to be "readily observed" so not inside the glove box, but small engraved plaques, lablemaker prints or whatever will suffice.

Registration marks are a scream...at least to a signmaker like me.

The regs say they must be:
"(i) in Roman capital type without ornamentation, "

..too funny. Roman capital letters have always had SERIFS!...so every aircraft in Canada is in VIOLATION of this regulation!
What they mean is a Gothic or simply Sans-Serif letter style.

...and they allow it to be italicized up to 35 Degrees!...which makes any letter almost unreadable!!!!!

I think my 2 cents is up!
 
Note that there is an exemption to Standard 549 that amends many of the provisions, including the bit about placards. It is up to each person to decide whether they wish to take advantage of the exemption, or not. So you can decide which reg you like the best. If you use the basic CAR Std 549.15, it says:

CAR 549.15 said:
Unless otherwise required in the applicable section, all aircraft shall have the following placards:

(a) On the side of the fuselage, in a position that is readily visible to persons entering the aircraft, in letters at least 10 mm (3/8 in.) high and of a colour contrasting with the background:

(1)

NOTICE:

THIS AIRCRAFT IS OPERATING WITH A SPECIAL CERTIFICATE
OF AIRWORTHINESS FOR AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT.

AVIS:

CET A?RONEF VOLE AVEC UN CERTIFICAT DE NAVIGABILIT?
SP?CIAL POUR A?RONEFS DE CONSTRUCTION AMATEUR.

(2) For aircraft with passenger seats, during the period when the applicable initial operating restrictions apply:


"PASSENGERS PROHIBITED"


"PASSAGERS INTERDITS".

(b) In any area of an aircraft designated for the carriage of passengers, other than an area beside the pilot, a placard shall be displayed showing the maximum permissible load in such compartment or area:

"MAXIMUM PASSENGER AND/OR BAGGAGE LOAD: KG ( LB)",

"CHARGE MAXIMALE, PASSAGERS/BAGAGES: KG ( LB)".

The load values to be used on this placard shall be obtained from the Aircraft Weight and Balance Report.
Click to expand...

The exemption says:

Exemption to CAR Std 549 said:
27(a). Unless otherwise required in the applicable section, each amateur-built aircraft shall display the following placard:

1. one containing the following statement readily legible from each passenger station, or displayed on the side of the fuselage:

YOU FLY IN THIS AIRCRAFT AT YOUR OWN RISK.

THIS AIRCRAFT DOES NOT COMPLY WITH INTERNATIONALLY

RECOGNIZED STANDARDS.

VOUS VOLEZ ? BORD DE CET A?RONEF ? VOS PROPRES RISQUES.

CET A?RONEF N?EST PAS CONFORME AUX

NORMES RECONNUES ? L??CHELLE INTERNATIONALE.
2. if the placard required by 27(a) is displayed on the side of the fuselage, it shall be in a position that is readily legible to persons entering the aircraft, in letters at least 10 mm (3/8 in.) high and of a color contrasting with the background;
3. in any area of an aircraft designated for the carriage of passengers, other than an area beside the pilot, a placard showing the maximum permissible load for that compartment or area:

MAXIMUM PASSENGER AND/OR BAGGAGE LOAD: ..............KG (LB)

or

CHARGE MAXIMALE, PASSAGERS/BAGAGES: .............KG (LB)
Click to expand...
 
Ummmmm

Ok, I have read all the posts...

I must be slow...I am more confused now then I was when I asked the question.

:confused::mad::confused::eek:
 
Placards...

Rick
It sounded more like a political debate in downtown Calgary than an answer to your questions...

Gents, get out of your backyards more often and you might learn a think or two about multiple languages requirement in the world..:rolleyes:

Bruno
St-Jerome,Quebec...
 
???

RV-4 said:
Rick
It sounded more like a political debate in downtown Calgary than an answer to your questions...

Gents, get out of your backyards more often and you might learn a think or two about multiple languages requirement in the world..:rolleyes:

Bruno
St-Jerome,Quebec...
Click to expand...

M. Bruno, you seem to have fallen into the exact same malady that I believe you are speaking against. What does Calgary have to do with this discussion? Have you lived here? Before you ask, I lived in Quebec for almost 3 years. Having lived in both provinces, my belief is that natives of both who don't have outside perspective are equally ignorant of the "realities" of the other.

Back to the topic... I don't have the answer for you Rick. I wanted to add that I found it interesting that if you import a US built aircraft, we are required to remove the "experimental" labels (at least, from what I can gather from the MDRA). Have you contacted them?
 
Rick
In your final inspection package that you received, or will receive, there is an section that tells you what the inspector will be looking for. It goes over everything, placards included. If you follow the guidelines everything will work out. I expect that Mac will be your final inspector and if so just put the 11" letters on the side. After the inspection, and before paint, YOU can decide how you want to interpret the regs for registration marks, the worst that can happen is a random ramp check where you might run into another interpretation.
 
Last edited:
Kevin Horton said:
Note that there is an exemption to Standard 549 that amends many of the provisions, including the bit about placards.
Click to expand...
I'm reasonably certain that the Exemption only applies to amateur-built aircraft being imported from the US. It does not apply to new construction.

Tom Martin said:
YOU can decide how you want to interpret the regs for registration marks, the worst that can happen is a random ramp check where you might run into another interpretation.
Click to expand...
No, the worst that can happen is the ramp check results in your plane staying where it's ramp checked until you arrange to apply temporary letters that meet the regs so you can move it. You may believe your "interpretation" to be correct, but if the inspector disagrees, you're still grounded.

The regs say they must be:
"(i) in Roman capital type without ornamentation, "
Click to expand...
I believe the regs in this case are only trying to avoid people who want to do silly things like using a scripted font.

I've reviewed the registration marks issue a number of times with people, and most of the RV's in Canada do not meet the letter of the law. MD-RA inspections are not consistent *AT ALL* and that should really be addressed. Some inspectors will not allow your registration to span both the vertical stab and rudder. Some will. Some will allow 3" letters on the tail, without 19" letters under the wing. Some won't. The regs are definitely confusing, but if you take the time to work through them as they apply to amateur-builts, a lot of the clauses drop out and you're left with regs that are not all that complex.

Here's a summary I wrote a few years ago for the RAA mailing list:

Marks on the underside of wings must be no smaller than 50cm (19.7") in height. If you use marks under the wings, there is no size restriction for marks on the side of the fuselage or tail.

If you do not mark the underside of the wings, marks on the side of the fuselage or tail must be no smaller than 30cm (11.8") in height. The only exception is where dimensions of the structure of the aircraft do not allow 30cm (11.8") letters, then the size may be reduced to 7.5cm (3") or the maximum height that the structure permits, whichever is greater (i'm speaking specifically for Amateur-Built Aircraft here, the limit is higher for certified a/c).

That would seem to allow letters as small as 7.5cm (3") on the tail alone. BUT: The regs clearly say that if there is a place where you can fit the 30cm (11.8") letters, that you must use it. The tail on an RV will not accomodate 30cm (11.8") letters, but the fuselage between the wing and the tail can, so you must use the fuselage. Or you have to put 50cm (19.7") letters on the bottom of the wings.
Click to expand...
 
Snowflake said:
I'm reasonably certain that the Exemption only applies to amateur-built aircraft being imported from the US. It does not apply to new construction.
Click to expand...
The Application section of that exemption quite clearly applies to all amateur-built aircraft. Also, there are provisions in the exemption that clearly could only apply to new construction aircraft, such as:

Except as provided in (6) or (7) an amateur-built aircraft must be assembled in Canada.
Click to expand...
 
Kevin Horton said:
The Application section of that exemption quite clearly applies to all amateur-built aircraft.
Click to expand...
Ah, I see now:
Transport Canada said:
Purpose

The purpose of this exemption is to permit persons who apply for a special certificate of airworthiness in the amateur-built classification:

* to contract for professional assistance in the construction or assembly of parts of the aircraft, provided the work is subject to the builder?s overall control;
* to import, register and operate in Canada foreign-built amateur-aircraft, subject to a Transport Canada inspection of the aircraft; and
* to not have to comply with the maximum permissible take-off mass (weight) and the maximum number of passenger seats requirements.
Click to expand...
I still read this as only applying in these cases, though. So new construction in Canada, but only for people looking to contract for professional assistance, and to exempt from the gross weight or passenger count requirements. Neither of which are present in the case of the original poster.
 
Snowflake said:
Ah, I see now:

I still read this as only applying in these cases, though. So new construction in Canada, but only for people looking to contract for professional assistance, and to exempt from the gross weight or passenger count requirements. Neither of which are present in the case of the original poster.
Click to expand...

Transport Canada said:
Application

This exemption applies to persons who apply for a special certificate of airworthiness in the amateur-built classification.
Click to expand...
You are giving the Purpose section way too much weight. These things need to be read with your lawyer hat on. The Application section says who this applies to. It clearly applies to anyone who applies for a Special C of A for an amateur-built aircraft.


Regulatory Change 101 - How to Stick Handle Your Way Through the System in 25 Easy Steps - we have an incredibly cumbersome process to change regs in Transport Canada, and it typically takes around 10 years to get a regulation amended. We have another, much quicker, process to issue exemptions to regs. The folks inside Transport Canada who manage the regs regarding amateur-built aircraft have a list of changes they intend to make to the regs, but it will take many, many years using the normal process. So, they decided to use the exemption process to speed things up. But, if you say the Purpose of an exemption is to "short cut the defined process for regulatory change", your proposed exemption will get shot down in flames.

So, you find another issue that needs attention (process to import amateur-built aircraft from the USA, for example), propose an exemption to solve this problem, and add in all the other changes that you are trying to push through the system. Once that exemption has been published, your new improved regs are available to those folks who wish to use them. Eventually, CAR 549 will get updated to incorporate the new wording, and this exemption will be canceled.
 
Rob
My comments were based on my personal experiences, in my part of Ontario, with numerous aircraft, inspectors etc; Rick Woodall happens to be in my part of Ontario. You are absolutely correct when you say that there are differences between inspectors and our regional differences are great. We are very fortunate to have a new Regional Transport Canada official. He is a homebuilder and someone you can actually talk to. Rick, you might want to call the Hamilton office and speak with Mike Sckozen (sp?) regarding his interpretation of the regulations, but the first step is to speak with your MDRA inspector. Do not hesitate to call me at 519-631-1369 and I can walk you through the process.
 
Thanks all

To all the posters, thanks. I have read the mdra papers, I have read various transport papers and talked to various builders, as you can see from the conficting comments here...its pretty grey and subject to both inspector and builder interpretation.

I will certainly call Mac soon and get the skinny as he is my inspector, just wanted to clean up the issues before I asked any "dumb" questions.

Thanks
 
Com antenna location

Hi all,

I just read a document from Garmin regarding installation of the SL40 (applies to any VHF Comm).

http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/GNS480_CanadianCOMRadioInstallation+OperationLimitations.pdf


It states that if you are installing a comm antenna in a Canadian aircraft it must be at least 24" from the pilot and 54" from any passenger!

That pretty much prevents me from putting my comm antenna (RV8) anywhere but in the wing tips.

I may have a nice new VHF Comant antenna up for sale soon.

Has anyone had an issue with this during an MDRA inspection?


Thanks kindly for any help with this.
 
Don't think that it will be a problem

If you consider the implications of the stated need to keep all transmitting antennas at least 54" away from all aircraft occupants then few certified aircraft would meet this criteria either.

If you actually look up the RSS102 spec you will find that it is aimed at everything from body-worn transmitters, to cellphones laptops and even medically implanted transmitters. No mention anywhere of aircraft radios or aircraft installations.

As long as the occupants seat is not mounted externally on the aircraft fuselage in close proximity to a transmitting antenna, I think it will be OK. I think this is a government compliance thing where common sense and normal airworthiness standards are not a consideration.
 
jmitchell said:
I just read a document from Garmin regarding installation of the SL40 (applies to any VHF Comm).

It states that if you are installing a comm antenna in a Canadian aircraft it must be at least 24" from the pilot and 54" from any passenger!

That pretty much prevents me from putting my comm antenna (RV8) anywhere but in the wing tips.

I may have a nice new VHF Comant antenna up for sale soon.

Has anyone had an issue with this during an MDRA inspection?
Click to expand...
The MD-RA guy won't be bothered by this at all as long as you don't bring the subject up. If you point out that your installation does not comply with the manufacturer's instructions, then this puts the MD-RA inspector in a difficult position. So, don't mention it to him.

Given that there is a large piece of aluminum between the antenna and the occupants, I wouldn't worry about this. The radiation in the cockpit will be low. It might be an concern if you had a composite aircraft, and were prone to talk on the radio for hours at a time.

Build on.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top