iPod in an RV.....

I guess that Comm is the closest forum I can get for this topic, since it deals with an interesting Audio oddity....

After checking out the aux input to my audio panel using a small MP3 player, I decided to treat myself to one of the new 30 Gig, thin video iPods. It makes a great place to store my entire music library, and fits in a shirt pocket - plugs into the audio system in the plane, and sounds great! (You can even put videos on it, but I really think that you shoudl be flying the airplane, and not watching "Desparate Housewives...)

Interesting problem however - I kept having the iPod lock up on me! It would play fine for about 20-30 minutes, and then the music would stop. And when I say locked, I mean LOCKED! Apple has their own version of the Microsoft "three-finger-salute" (ctrl-alt-dlt), and that wouldn't even work, The thing was locked up, and stuck ON. The only way to get it to reset was to let the battery completely discharge, then put it on the charger, and let it start up again. After the third time in two weeks with this new toy, I said enough, and took it back to Best Buy for an exchange. No problem - got a new one, spent four hours downloading my music again, and took it flying....until IT did the same lock-up dance!!

Now this is just a theory, and I am interested if anyone can help prove or disprove it, but I think the problem is high-frequency vibration. I had the thing plugged in and sitting in the passenger footwell of my -8. If you put your hand there in flight, you can feel a very slight vibration. I wondered if somehow, this was bothering the miniature internal hard drive in this 0.40" thick package. So the past two days of flying, I plugged it in, and slipped it under the strap of my kneeboard. Guess what - no lock-ups! This would suggest that you don't want it in direct hard contact with structure.

Has anyone else experienced this, or am I just unlucky enough to get two lemons? And before we start a Mac/PC war, I must say that this is the very first piece of Mac gear I have ever bought - I'm a PC owner becasue I am cheap, and like to know how my computer works.....

Anyway - a little experience, word of warning - and quest for any other experiences...still, a cool little unit - 30Gigs in that little thing?!

Paul

Paul, Paul, Paul...

This has been covered about a million times and I'm pretty sure on this site, but perhap not.

Anyway, couple of questions... What Alt where you? I suspect that the new 2.5" drives that apple is using is even more suseptable to the problem than the older units.

Anyway, yes, the heads float on a pillow of air. I suspect you were at a density alt that made that air too thin and in fact, you crashed the heads into the platters. While it might have been recoverable for a few times, you're just asking for it long term.

Only solution is to go get a Mini, a Nano, or a Shuffle. They are all solid state disk drives and won't have this problem. However the largest you can get is only 6G I think...

Sorry, you had the Ipod problem, but it's well known among flyers.

aadamson said:

Anyway, yes, the heads float on a pillow of air. I suspect you were at a density alt that made that air too thin and in fact, you crashed the heads into the platters. While it might have been recoverable for a few times, you're just asking for it long term.

Click to expand...

Now wait just a second here... Let's not quite state everything like fact if there are other facts...

I've been flying for the last 3 years with 2 different ipods in my 9A. 450 hrs of trouble free music enhanced flying. Both ipods are still working just fine and both have harddrives in them. Both times I crossed the country I flew at 11.5K for hours on end with no music problems at all.

Now the ipods I have, 1 is the 2nd generation 10gig, and 1 is the 4th generation b&W click wheel 20gig. I have not tried the new video one.

As always, YMMV.

Interesting!

Alan,

Sorry, I don't think I'd seen this one discussed here on the site, and hadn't run into it elsewhere...but sure enough, your post made me do a quick search, and you're absolutely right - here was one example:

http://www.macintouch.com/readerreports/ipod/topic2425.html

basically, this says that Apple gives the limit as 10,000' - whch doesn't explain why mine had the problem at 8,000 (on a cold day...), but hey, what's a couple of thousand feet among friends....it also says that Apple has the same altitude limit on the solid state units...which makes no sense at all...

But then, Apples are intended to free you from the need to understand the technology anyway, so perhaps, I shouldn't ask...

Paul

iPod lockup - Not uncommon even at sea level

Ironflight said:

I guess that Comm is the closest forum I can get for this topic, since it deals with an interesting Audio oddity....

Guess what - no lock-ups! This would suggest that you don't want it in direct hard contact with structure.

Has anyone else experienced this, or am I just unlucky enough to get two lemons? And before we start a Mac/PC war, I must say that this is the very first piece of Mac gear I have ever bought - I'm a PC owner because I am cheap, and like to know how my computer works.....

Anyway - a little experience, word of warning - and quest for any other experiences... Paul

Click to expand...

I have a iPod. Yes there has been iPods in plane discussions, but mostly in refrence to altitude effect, but I don't recall a repeated discussion on lock-up issues.

Although I have had my iPod for 3 years, I have not used my iPod in a small plane yet, but have plenty dead heading in the back of an airliner (about 8,000 cabin altitude) with no problem.

I have also suffered the LOCK-UP syndrome, once may be twice in 3 years, just as you described, locked up ON, no music, display locked and the reset trick not working. I would let the battery run dead (really had no choice) and than recharged it. After that it worked fine again as usual. I use mine ALL the time.

One time I recalled it locked up, I was getting out of my car. My iPod was in my right front pant pocket. The iPod got squeezed between my leg and the steering wheel as I slid out the car seat. I don't know if I pushed down on the case back/front or some of the buttons. Regardless the symptoms was the same as you describe, and this was ground level, below 1000 feet MSL . The second time, I recall I was being a little aggressive switching thru the songs, the battery was very low and it locked. (I have a 20gig one version back from the latest, buttons, music only unit.) Are you running on battery power? Both times the battery level was low when it happened.

I think it could be your unit, a iPod thing. Hard-lock ups are not uncommon even at low altitude. As far as the PC or MAC thing I am loading my iPod with a big old PC, yes sir. I do not think it matters. Even MAC is putting a Pentium chip in! hahahehe.

Check the iPod forums, love the iPod, but they can be a little squarely sometimes. As long as you are below 8,000-10,000 feet and not subjecting the thing to lots of vibrations I see no reason for this. Check out the battery thing. I am not saying it is dead, but there could be a correlation to locking up and battery level. I am all out of guess work.

George

I suppose I should have been more specific

akarmy said:

Now wait just a second here... Let's not quite state everything like fact if there are other facts...

I've been flying for the last 3 years with 2 different ipods in my 9A. 450 hrs of trouble free music enhanced flying. Both ipods are still working just fine and both have harddrives in them. Both times I crossed the country I flew at 11.5K for hours on end with no music problems at all.

Click to expand...

You have been very lucky. The G3 units won't change songs, volume, etc as the membrane "keyboard" goes flaky above about 10K. Above 12K and you are asking for a hard drive crash. I have a friend who lost 2 in a King Air that he was flying with out being pressurized.

I *never* take my 20G G3 in the plane, I only take my Mini. I only have the keypad problem above 10K, but it's been to 15 just fine.

Paul, sorry, I guess I figured this had been discussed here. Must have been the CPA site or another airplane list that I read often... Either way, 10K is bout the extreme. I suspect the change to the thinner 2.5" drives are not as robust as the 2.5" drives that the older generation use.

I have about 800 songs on a mini and still have about 1G left over on a 4G mini... Course the Nano would be the ticket, it's even smaller and in color

Thinner Drives...

I think you're right Alan - as the drives have gotten thinner, the head clearances must be infinitesimal (I vaguely remember an exercise back in fluid dynamics where we computed the aerodynamic affects of heads and disks - but that was a LONG time ago, back when they carved the bits into stone disks with chisel s...).

George's older one is thicker - not by much, but probably enough...

Oh well, a checklist addition - Climbing through 8,000 - iPod - Off

I was just reading more Apple Forum web sites - amazing how many people htink that airliners are pressurized to Sea Level!

Altitude issues on hard drives is not absolute

Some hard drives will work in the atmosphere to well over 14000'. As an IT director for a university, I have people traveling all over the world, using macs, PCs and iPods(it also doubles as a great external HD). I had a group travel to the big island to work at the Keck Obsevatory, on Mona Kea, at 13000+, for several days at a time. All had Dell or Apple laptops and several used iPods at nearly 14000 feet. No problems except for XP. I can tell you from my own trip to Keck that the roads casue severe vibration on ipods.

I believe the problem most encounter is a combination of the altitude and vibration. The easy answer is to use one of the non hard drive iPods and create a playlist that will fit it and your flight. If travelling cross country, just reload it with another playlist from your laptop when you arrive at your destination.

BTW this is composed on a mac/intel laptop.

FWIW

I have the new iPod 30 GB player in my Rocket. So far, it has worked just fine as high as 9,500'. I keep mine loosly laying on the carpeted floor so it is not subjected to much vibration.

I have had it lock up once at work on me. Same deal as yours, I had to let it drain and then re-connect it. It has only happened once so far.

Vibration + Altitude!

I think Robbie has the right thread - as long as nothing disturbs the head/platter relationship, and there was clearance to begin with, there shouldn't be a crash (air or no air) - in total theory...But add a litle disturbance (vibration), and you're off to the races.....

I do have a little 256 Meg flash drive player...I just am too lazy to hook it up and change the music to keep me from being bored...

Thanks for the discussion guys - now we've captured some itnerestign information for the search archives!

Weather's nice again today - I'm off to the airport!

Paul

Vibration, location and attitude.

f1rocket said:

I have the new iPod 30 GB player in my Rocket. So far, it has worked just fine as high as 9,500'. I keep mine loosely laying on the carpeted floor so it is not subjected to much vibration.

I have had it lock up once at work on me. Same deal as yours, I had to let it drain and then re-connect it. It has only happened once so far.

Click to expand...

Where in the floor? Right by your hip on the sub floor. I know the floor on the RV's, between spar and firewall vibes quite a bit.

Not sure if the floor is best, So the QUESTIONS TO ALL ARE: (?)

Where's the best place to put an iPod for least vibration?

How should it lay or mount to minimize the hard drive head issue:
(on end/side vertical, laying on back on face)?


From what I have read so far: anything under 10,000 should be OK, and older iPods have thicker drives and may be more head/disk clearance.

Cheers George

Ummm...

gmcjetpilot said:

Where's the best place to put an iPod for least vibration?

Click to expand...

Wait, I know, I know... In your shirt pocket!

brilliant

aadamson said:

Wait, I know, I know... In your shirt pocket!

Click to expand...

Alan Alan Alan Alan Alan Alan Alan Alan..... Yea I thought of that, but was thinking more in a "mounted" position, but it would work.

I am also thinking of some vibration mount. I have a Cigarette mount in my car with silicon padded clamp, which besides holding the iPod, it powers and has a FM radio modulator. That would help no doubt. Remember turn tables with the vibration damping feet? Silicon pad? Any way thanks aadamson, we can always count on your for the obvious. G

PS How about a Velcro or sewed pouch on the side of the seat bottom cushion? All the connections, power/audio could be routed between the seat or to the side. Com-on guys lets get creative.

PSS pressurized iPod "Pod" idea below. Love it! What about an Otter Box, water tight cases. As long as you don't open it is should stay at field elevation? Just need to seal the pwr/audio wire egress. There are cool wireless remotes with audio output: iPod wireless audio and controls Down side is battery power, I have got 7hrs of my 3G, but usually less.


Some water/air tight cases: Airtight Otter Box; **Pelican Airtight case**; **Pelican case has automatic pressure purge valve, to equalize ambient pressure. Not sure of exact function, have to ask. If a case is good for 50 feet under water, well over a positive 2 Atmo, it should be good for neg 1/3rd Atmo (at 11,000 ft). At 18,000 feet is only 1/2 Atmo. Even if they don't maintain perfect positive pressure (although I don't see why not), they provide vibration & shock protection. Good idea "srv".

hiPod

Since y'all are done with the kit building, you could build a pressurized container for the iPod... Call it the hiPod. Could use the remote switches, not sure which models support those.

gmcjetpilot said:

Pelican case has automatic pressure purge valve, to equalize ambient pressure. Not sure of exact function, have to ask. If a case is good for 50 feet under water, well over a positive 2 Atmo, it should be good for neg 1/3rd Atmo (at 11,000 ft). At 18,000 feet is only 1/2 Atmo. Even if they don't maintain perfect positive pressure (although I don't see why not), they provide vibration & shock protection.

Click to expand...

I'm not exactly sure what they mean by "automatic", but all the Pelican cases I used in the Corps had a pressure equalization valve that used a little manual pushbutton to equalize the internal and ambient pressures before opening the case.
Good pieces of gear. We beat the cr@p out of them and they still sealed...

gmcjetpilot said:

Where in the floor? Right by your hip on the sub floor. I know the floor on the RV's, between spar and firewall vibes quite a bit.

Click to expand...

On my Rocket, I keep the iPod on the carpet, horizontally, next to my seat where it plugs into my headset control box. I have not noticed any significant vibration. This is a sub-floor, not a skin to the outside. Also, my carpet is fairly plush.

Panel mount

Here's my mounting location. I simply have a clip mounted on the panel face that takes the belt button clip that many ipod cases already have.

I have the 30GB Ipod. I mounted mine on the panel of my RV-4 just like the photo in the above post. What I found is that there was too much vibration which would cause it to skips songs and apparently lock up just like others have found. I finally changed my mounting location to my seat belt. I use the same clippy case as above except that I clip it to my seat belt.

Isn't experimental aviation wonderful? Can you imagine having this conversation even 5 years ago?

ipod updates anybody?

Now that some time has passed how are the ipods working in the RV's? In particular the 30 gig video ipods... How high have you flown with yours?

Thanks,

Rumors of flash-only ipods and laptops abound this quarter so everyone will be upgrading soon

Bryan Wood said:

Now that some time has passed how are the ipods working in the RV's? In particular the 30 gig video ipods... How high have you flown with yours?

Thanks,

Click to expand...

Since I got my 396 with XM, I'm afraid that the iPod has pretty much stayed at home, or in my truck.....the 10,000' altitude limit is real, and I trashed two of them before becoming a believer. Maybe with an all-flash 30 gig, I'd change back....(still like the thing, it's just more convenient to use the XM for tunes right now).

Paul

8gb flash memory

I just bought a 8 Gb flash memory unit which holds 8000 songs and has a built-in FM tuner. More songs than I own. It's a Sansa E280 (made by San Disk)and is smaller than an iPod. $157 on e-bay, $250 in a local store.

The out plug is larger than the in plug on my PMA-8000B, does anyone know where to get an adapter? (I haven't searched yet but, someone may have a ready answer).

MP players are GREAT. It took me long enough to join the club though. Now that I no longer have a 10 lb, 2 cubic foot boom box on my shoulder....

Jekyll

aadamson said:

Wait, I know, I know... In your shirt pocket!

Click to expand...

Way to go Alan. I just love it when some one hits the nail on the head.