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zsadecki

Active Member
A couple comments on the RVOPA idea. Personally I like it. I definitely agree that it would carry more weight, and sounds more 'professional'.

About running the site by yourself.. I think you should at least have an assistant or backup. I mean what if you got sick, went on vacation, or something else happened. The site could continue functioning with a SIC.
 
Thanks!

My lovely wife is the backup right now. She occasionally uploads files that I forget to (after I've gone to work). And, when traveling I don't stay at hotels that don't have wireless/highspeed access.

Best,
d


zsadecki said:
A couple comments on the RVOPA idea. Personally I like it. I definitely agree that it would carry more weight, and sounds more 'professional'.

About running the site by yourself.. I think you should at least have an assistant or backup. I mean what if you got sick, went on vacation, or something else happened. The site could continue functioning with a SIC.
Click to expand...
 
Sounds good to me!
As an association, who knows, maybe insurance companies that WILL insure RV's would give you a little itty bitty break if you belong, since they will know you're getting the absolute best info and advice concerning construction and flying techniques.
What a great information source this site has become!
 
Doug,

I think it's a great idea. So much so I'll go on the record in public and say sign me up!

I will also offer to help where I can if you would like. I have a little background as you know.

Not everyone may agree but as Margaret Thatcher said -- " consensus is the negation of leadership".

If you didn't lead to this point we wouldn't have this forum to be talking would we?

Lead on.
 
My 1-1/2 cents is to keep the organization's name as "Van's Airforce". It's not only descriptive, but I feel that would continue to give due honor to the individual without whom there would be no organization at all. I know "RV" is the same thing, but it's not as personal.

You just wait, Doug. You too will get all teary eyed sentimental in your advancing years and stuff like this will occur to you. :)
 
Doug,

I don't care to be the first naysayer but I like Van's Airforce a heck of a lot more that I like the sounds of RVOPA. VAF is grass roots, informal, friendly. RVOPA may sound more "professional" to a casual observer but that's not who I think the group represents. When I want to sound like a professional pilot I push the AOPA. I don't need another "professional" organization. In my opinion the AOPA is a necessary business but it sure isn't GA or especially experimental GA friendly, imo.

When I want to hang out with a group of RV friends I don't look for a professional organization. RV friends and informal talk is what I find here and at other RV events and sites. You can check your records and see that I've contributed to VAF for the past three years (starting a year before I began building). I like what you've done (well, I'm still deciding about these new forums). I have no plan to stop contributing to VAF but I'm not sure I'd keep visiting if it becomes RVOPA.

I know its your show and you're welcome to do what ever you want and you won't hear another negative word from me on this topic.

Cheers,

Don
 
Who's to say they're can't be "VAF" stickers to encourage revenue? Still gives those who pay a bonus and gives you people to honk and wave wildly at on the highway. I agree with the last post that we DON'T want to be like MMOPA or COPA, so keep the name VAF.
 
Don't forget the B!

Some of us don't qualify as owners or pilots yet! That includes us dreamers too.

RVOPBDA?
 
Now THAT is funny, Alex :) .

I wouldn't envision any procedural changes taking place - same old site regardless of the name. I was thinking (as an example) down the road when a local group of RVators is dealing with their city...."I'm a member of the Nevada RVOPA and we're wondering if the city can provide portable restrooms for our local fly-in...." Getting vendors to offer products cheaper if you're a RVOPA member (have an assigned number) - maybe they sell it to Van's cheaper so the savings can be passed on. That type of thing.

I don't see it as a formal 'association' at all - with elected officials, etc. Never a AOPA or EAA type organization. I have to ask myself always, "What would be best for the RV builders/flyers."

Just like everything else this has a ebb/flow nature to it. Usually the best course of action presents itself all by itself if given a little time.

Oh well, back to work. Talk soon.

B,
d


Alex said:
Some of us don't qualify as owners or pilots yet! That includes us dreamers too.

RVOPBDA?
Click to expand...
 
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I suggest dropping the owner part out and call it RVPA. It might just be me, but RV Owners and Pilots Association sounds a group of people that own recreation vehicles and happen to be pilots too. Another idea might be to call it RVAPA for RV Aircraft Pilots Association.
 
Doug,

I don't think you can keep it as "loose" as you believe and still be effective. Groups are effective in certain areas because of their size, organization and membership profile. Otherwise, they are nothing more than a "rag tag" bunch of folks that kind of hang around together. To get concessions and/or special considerations, you have to negotiate, and sometimes there are legal issues there. Not bad things, just things that need to be addressed.

You also have to define the type of organization: for profit or not for profit. If it's for profit, there is no need to have elections, etc. because you own the name and agreements, and provide a service to your customers, the membership. Not for profit gets really strange every which way you look at it, and leads you down the path of an EAA, SSA, AOPA, etc. Not that one is better than the other, just different.

I have no problem with either concept. If I'm not mistaken, both the Cessna Owners and the Piper Owners groups are for profit (although I may be wrong!), and I have belonged to both over the years. It really comes down to providing a service to the membership, and how best to go about it. I suspect this really needs to be a for profit group - getting enough people together to pull off everything needed to be pulled off is tougher than you can imagine (been there, done that, have more bruises and black eyes than I care to admit)! What ends up happening is that you get one or two folks ram-rodding the effort, pretty much out of the goodness of their hearts, with no assurance that their vision will be maintained. Unless you have a unique individual (Paul Peberezny?) willing to devote the time and effort, and then suffer the allegations of nepotism, personal gain, wrongful actions, etc., I'm not sure why anyone would bother with a not for profit org!

So, with that, where do I sign, and who do I make the check out to? But, I suspect you have a bit more work to do to pull this off if that's your choice. I would caution you about only one thing: the forums have to be open to the public! We depend on the free exchange of information, and I suspect many, many people will not pay even a thin dime to get it! My $0.02.....

Dave
 
Doug,
I know this runs counter to my email to you today...but here goes. Someone above made a good point that an RV to most people is a motor home. What if we combined "RVOPA" and "Van's Air Force" and come up with ...(drum roll, please).... :D

....."RV Air Force?" :cool:

Maybe you could initiate a poll...Would that mean we'd have to go back to Yahoo to run the poll? :confused:
Don Hull
 
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I like bmurris's suggestion. RVPA. Because isn't RV owner and RV pilot the same person (people) 99% of the time? so the O and P are redundant (and the xxOPA seems kinda cliche).

Although it doesn't really matter much as long as the site (and group of people) stay as good as they are today... And like Brian130 said, a VAF sticker would be pretty cool too :)
 
Dave's Comments

I read with interest Dave Durakovich's comments. Actually I read everyone's comments with interest. It was Dave's that most cogently expressed what I was trying to formulate and say. He is very perceptive about the substantial number of lumps and bumps that one goes through to organize such a venture. That being said I believe we are moving into an era that will require active and well-organized groups to keep us in the air. The home built community is nicely represented by the EAA. I think the RV community is a strong and united group and will be needed to be another voice singing in unity with the BIG TWO (EAA and AOPA) to keep us flying. I am a big supporter of an RV organization. The name is irrelevant. The unity in purpose is essential. Any of the names suggested will put us under one banner. Some chatting with Van himself may help with a name. Keep up the good work Doug.
 
ddurakovich said:
..... I would caution you about only one thing: the forums have to be open to the public! We depend on the free exchange of information, and I suspect many, many people will not pay even a thin dime to get it! My $0.02.....

Dave
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more, Dave. One thing that would absolutely stay in place is that regardless the name of the site, the non-paying public would still see all the areas that the paying public would (forums, white pages, service bulletins, etc...)

This is 100% different from every other plane site on the planet (AOPA, EAA, COPA, LOPA, CPA, MMOPA, etc). They all have 'members only' areas. Mine won't.....ever.

The yearly donation would be a sort of 'thank you'. You get a sticker, and maybe the first time you send in your check you get a laminated card with your RVOPA member number (I get #1, so don't ask.:) ).

Maybe once a month or so we do a random drawing using the membership numbers only for a prize (set of plugs, case of oil, etc. Whatever I can get various vendors to donate). Calling them as Doug from the RV Owners & Pilots Association might get more stuff.

My gut instinct is this would be a positive thing for the builders/owners, and the instict has worked before (white pages, yahoo groups, forums, Land of Enchantment Fly-In, etc)

Maybe this is all a lousy idea, but I kinda like the idea of having a signature line like...

John Doe
RVOPA #576
RV-8 Flying
Dallas, Texas

...and a cool sticker on my truck. What's usually the case about these kinds of things (historically for me) is that sooner or later some unexpected use comes up for the 'new setup' and because it's in place what we want/need gets done easier. Case in point: Information now goes out instantly in the forums...as opposed to the the Yahoo groups which sometimes take hours/days to get information out.

Oh well, enough typing. It's Friday and I wanna rest <g>.

Best to all and have a great weekend,

Doug Reeves
RVOPA #1 ;)

PS: I ran the idea by Tom Green at Van's a few months back and he thought it was a good idea (the idea and the name (RVOPA)).
 
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Fpbo

How about Flying and Partying with you Buds Organization (FPBO)? Seriously, the Van's Air Force sounds good to me. So often when you say the word RV, you have to listen to someone's stories of when THEY owned an RV and drove all over the country in it - IT'S AN AIRPLANE!!!!!
 
Doug,
Leave it alone I say....it ain't broke....besides how are you going to get all those letters on your wing... :D
I really appreciate the work you put into this site for us all to enjoy and learn about our ships, but having said that I would still use the site even with a name change....
Marc
 
I like the sound of Van's Air Force or RVAF. Kinda rolls off the tongue easy like. Besides, there's too many other _OPA groups out there as you mentioned in talk #4.
For what it's worth, as an ex-AOPA member, I did get insurance riders at no additional cost from my underwriter (theft of handheld avionics, free transportation home from the crash site, etc.).
I would $upport a "club" toolbox sticker or jacket patch.

my $.02,
Steve
 
....besides how are you going to get all those letters on your wing... :D
Click to expand...
Not to mention trying to put "RV Owner's and Pilot's Association" down Flash's side...it'd run from nose to tail! :eek:

Doug,
Just my 2 cents, but I've always liked the sound of "Van's Air Force". It makes us different from the forest of other -OPA's out there. I understand what you're saying and thinking, though, and I'm with you whichever way you decide to go.
 
Bill, Doug did... he explains it in his talk #4.

...my $0.02, FWIW:

Look around, we ARE a rag tag bunch!

:D

We build our own custom planes to our unique configurations. Our ideas are often copied from another fellows plane. The thing we have in common is the platform is from this little place in Oregon called Van's Aircraft.

I personally dislike the name, "Van's" and "RV" for a plane to begin with. So sorry, Van... nothing against you, I purchased into it regardless.

:D

I just think it isn't a good name for a plane. A great name for an individual, however! The name "RV" conjures up ideas of busses with converted interiors. I understand it is your initials and all, but... Just google it, see what I mean?

Soooo, like Doug says, "What's in a name?"

A name is like a president. It gives a mental picture of the group in one catchy phrase. The "Air Force" thing, I like! On the other hand, being a "rag tag" bunch, perhaps the "XX-OPA" thing isn't truly representative of we lone wolves? It sounds too "conformist" and politically driven.

Here is a vote for leaving it alone.

:cool: CJ
 
Possible new name (but kinda leaving it the same)

LOL!

Possible new tac, then......What do you think about just shortening the current name and taking off the 'World Wide Wing'? I need to make sure it's OK with the people who did the original Van's sticker that they use on all the coffee mugs and stuff (Randall Henderson?).

Maybe the sticker for your vehicle would look like:
vaf.jpg


I still need to work on the 'why should I donate yearly' aspect....maybe getting sequentially numbered laminated cards made up just like EAA/AOPA and assigning those numbers to those who donate. Once a month pick a random number and give a donated prize to (plugs, case oil, etc). Vendor gets exposure and you're in the running each month.

Still thinking all this through. Need to present the group in a more organized fashion while still retaining the 'rebel' aspect :) . It's a fine line, I understand.

Enough for now. I need to go out to the airport and work on Flashv2.0.

Best as always,
 
After reading all the other posts I think my overall impression is that I like Van's Airforce. With over 4000 flying we truly are an Air Force. The number of RV's flying alone is what gives us credibility not the name. In another 10 years Van's Air Force will be as recognized as Cessna or Piper to nearly any human that remotely cares about aviation. That said, if you want to change the name to RVOPA, charge $40.00 a year, and give us all a nice shiny thick magazines full of RV aircraft and articles then tell me where to send the check. ;)
 
Tandem seat picture

Doug,
Great new logo...but you accidently put a side by side aircraft on it. An oversight I am sure. You need to use a tandem seat picture! You are forgiven.
Steve
 
DeltaRomeo said:
I still need to work on the 'why should I donate yearly' aspect....maybe getting sequentially numbered laminated cards made up just like EAA/AOPA and assigning those numbers to those who donate. Once a month pick a random number and give a donated prize to (plugs, case oil, etc). Vendor gets exposure and you're in the running each month.
Click to expand...

Doug,
Do you think you could talk your advertisersers into providing discounts to VAF members? Things like that might encourage membership. I always ask myself why I need to join yet another organization... product discounts would definately sway me. Anyways, just an idea.
 
Captain_John said:
I personally dislike the name, "Van's" and "RV" for a plane to begin with.
Click to expand...
:eek: Now you've gone too far!

Captain_John said:
I just think it isn't a good name for a plane.
Click to expand...
:eek: I'm shocked. Shocked you hear!?


Captain_John said:
A great name for an individual, however! The name "RV" conjures up ideas of busses with converted interiors. I understand it is your initials and all, but... Just google it, see what I mean?
Click to expand...

Oh! Well that's okay then. :cool:

Seriously though I agree with you. When we're flying and broadcast "RV 311SV left downwind runway 29" People know we're not talking about a Winnebago. But you talk to the average GOS (guy on the street) he'll think you're nuts when you tell him you fly an RV.

Doug,
My vote is to stick with VAF. It's short, no-nonsense, and fits in nicely with other 3 letter organizations like CIA, NSA, FBI, GAO, FAA, and uh... FFA.

I say let democracy reign. Cast a poll.
 
Already on it, Scott :) . Beyond the possible discounts from advertisers, it's going to be really important to me to emphasize that there is no 'penalty' for not sending in a yearly donation, other than you:

  • don't get a sticker (still planning this)
  • don't get a card with your assigned 'membership' number (still planning this)
  • don't get to participate in monthly prize giveaway - randomly drawn membership number (still planning this)
No 'members only' areas. I'm really supporting this concept, as I truly believe it's the open nature of the site that fosters its growth rate. I remember the story about Henry Ford wanting to give Model T's away and only sell accessories and replacement parts.

Well, off to the airport. Kids are packed and truck is full of tricycles of video tapes.

Best,
dr (VAF #1)

PS: I'm loving these forums. They make the exchanging of ideas so easy. BTW, by ISP email server is down right now for weekend upgrades, which makes using this that much more convienent.


svanarts said:
Doug,
Do you think you could talk your advertisersers into providing discounts to VAF members? Things like that might encourage membership. I always ask myself why I need to join yet another organization... product discounts would definately sway me. Anyways, just an idea.
Click to expand...
 
Captain_John said:
Bill, Doug did... he explains it in his talk #4.

...my $0.02, FWIW:

Look around, we ARE a rag tag bunch!

:D

:cool: CJ
Click to expand...


Man, I went from 'cogent' and 'perceptive' to 'rag-tag' in just 3 posts! Only on the Internet!!!

Seriously though, considering the $$$$$ we spend, the time we invest in our 'hobbies', and the skills needed to maintain it all, I really don't think 'rag-tag' applies!

Eccentric? Absolutely!
Crazy? Quite possibly?
Rebels? For sure!
But rag-tag? Naw...... But then again? :D

Dave
 
Formal name and informal one

For all those that want to keep the old name. I think that we actually could. Any formal organization (for profit / not) could be named RVOPA.

But we can all keep our stickers and patches. Van's Air Force would be the RVOPA. The web site would stay the same. We would just be stating the obvious. The RVOPA nickname would be Van's Air Force - that way Doug wouldn't have to get a new paint job.

Paul
B not O or P yet
 
DeltaRomeo said:
I couldn't agree more, Dave. One thing that would absolutely stay in place is that regardless the name of the site, the non-paying public would still see all the areas that the paying public would (forums, white pages, service bulletins, etc...)

This is 100% different from every other plane site on the planet (AOPA, EAA, COPA, LOPA, CPA, MMOPA, etc). They all have 'members only' areas. Mine won't.....ever.

The yearly donation would be a sort of 'thank you'. You get a sticker, and maybe the first time you send in your check you get a laminated card with your RVOPA member number (I get #1, so don't ask.:) ).

Maybe once a month or so we do a random drawing using the membership numbers only for a prize (set of plugs, case of oil, etc. Whatever I can get various vendors to donate). Calling them as Doug from the RV Owners & Pilots Association might get more stuff.

My gut instinct is this would be a positive thing for the builders/owners, and the instict has worked before (white pages, yahoo groups, forums, Land of Enchantment Fly-In, etc)

Maybe this is all a lousy idea, but I kinda like the idea of having a signature line like...

John Doe
RVOPA #576
RV-8 Flying
Dallas, Texas

...and a cool sticker on my truck. What's usually the case about these kinds of things (historically for me) is that sooner or later some unexpected use comes up for the 'new setup' and because it's in place what we want/need gets done easier. Case in point: Information now goes out instantly in the forums...as opposed to the the Yahoo groups which sometimes take hours/days to get information out.

Oh well, enough typing. It's Friday and I wanna rest <g>.

Best to all and have a great weekend,

Doug Reeves
RVOPA #1 ;)

PS: I ran the idea by Tom Green at Van's a few months back and he thought it was a good idea (the idea and the name (RVOPA)).
Click to expand...


Doug,

Not to sound like I'm flip-flopping, but it was primarily the forums that I thought should be kept public!

However, being an amateur student of human nature (and remembering the multiple times I've been told by various A&P's that the only thing cheap about airplanes were the owners :eek: ), I really do believe that many, if not most people will not voluntarily pay for something they can get for free!

While I believe that the forums are necessary as a source of information, to keep people engaged, there are plenty of areas on the site (POH's, Parts bag contents, etc.) that are of significant benefit that have little impact on safety, building techniques, etc. I suspect that many of these things would be of value to people, and worth joining (or contributing) moreso than a decal for their car, boat, RV or Bonanza (although I really, really want the one that says Vans Air Force!).

And lastly, there are cerrtain realities of life that affect us all, with financial and time considerations usually being at the forefront. I DO NOT PRESUME to know you at all, but most people will not continue to do something forever without getting something out of it! You are providing a valuable service to the RV community, and probably spend a fair amount of time doing it. And if this is more successful than it already has been, will have to spend even MORE time at it! You may very well be a completely selfless person, but I suspect that if there is a lack of contibutors, it will eventually take it's toll.

With 4000+ flying, and probably at least that many under active construction, while Cap may be right and we are a rag-tag bunch, we are a BIG rag-tag bunch, and are (or will be) a force to be reckoned and negotiated with! I have no doubt that at some point there will be an 'Official' owners group for RV's, just as there is for so many other types. You already have the inclination, the structure, and the audience, and while it looks professional, many will never take it seriously if it is nothing more than a 'hobby' with voluntary contributions!

I'll quit now before it sounds like I'm on a crusade, but again, tell me where to send the check, and what name to put on it!

Dave
 
VAF vs. RVOPA

Doug, does this mean that you'll have to repaint the wings on Flash v.2 to RVOPA instead of VAF?
I'm against it for a variety of reasons. I like the simplicity of VAF.
We're not directly associated with AOPA (I'm a member) and don't want it to sound like we are.
For getting potties for a fly-in, etc do you really think people are going to jump when you say RVOPA? You'll still have to explain what the group consists of: people who are resourceful, devoted, and idealistic enough to build their very own airplane. I don't think you will get anything more out of RVOPA vs. VAF. What it comes down to with me is, basically, I just like the name of Van's Air Force. :D

Mark Dews
RV6A N885SM
Splendora, TX
 
Use both names

parashak said:
For all those that want to keep the old name. I think that we actually could. Any formal organization (for profit / not) could be named RVOPA.

But we can all keep our stickers and patches. Van's Air Force would be the RVOPA. The web site would stay the same. We would just be stating the obvious. The RVOPA nickname would be Van's Air Force - that way Doug wouldn't have to get a new paint job.

Paul
B not O or P yet
Click to expand...
Doug,

Paul has a very good point here. Use both names. And, put BOTH names on stickers, mugs, hats, underwear(could be a big seller), etc. Many of us have become quite attached to the name "Van's Air Force". And, the name has been around long enough that the BATF probably doesn't get the willies anymore when hearing the name(it also helps that there are no documented cases of this "air force" group strafing parked spam cans or outhouses... ooops, that's a redundancy :D ).

But still, some folks might be put off by a name that has the words "air force" in it. Do we care? Hmmmm. It might be wise to choose words that are suited to the audience. This is not an attempt to be politically correct, rather an attempt to achieve a desired effect on the audience. In other words, don't use words just because it makes other people happy; use words in order to get what you want more easily.

Another point made by someone else in this thread: active builders ARE owners, they just haven't flown the airplane yet.

Although builder/pilots will probably constitute the lion's share of pilots for a long time to come, the number of RV pilots who purchased rather than built is likely to grow.

As far as people confusing our airplanes with automotive recreational vehicles or buses, well, save your breath because those folks are beyond help anyway ;)

Van's Air Force is already a de facto RV owners/pilots association. Use both names, and use them when/where/how you choose.

Mark Andrews N598X
builder/pilot
p.s. regarding contributions: some of use are a little absent-minded, maybe send an email annually expressing thanks for the previous year's contribution and offering the opportunity to continue contributing?
 
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What a great exchange of ideas and opinions this is. (34) replies to date, making it the 2nd most popular thread in this particular forum! Great points by all, and as I'd hoped, a number of points I hadn't considered.

I'm currently leaning towards just chopping 'World Wide Wing' off the end of the name and going with the simpler name Van's Air Force.

Ross Burgess said one time on mic as our three ship was lining up with final for the pitchout, "This is NOT a normal hobby." You know, it's not. I kinda like the way that has a fun, adventurous, rebel feel to it.

This is NOT a normal hobby.​




but I also like....​




Our planes totally rock! Yours doesn't.​




I'm working up a poll for the site on Monday where anyone who visits the site can vote on a particular name. We'll run it a couple of weeks and see what the whole group has to say. Real democratic-like...

I gotta say I really get a kick out of helping stear the ship, so to speak...and with the added benefits of these forums and online polling tools I get the feeling that regardless what we end up doing it will be in the best interest of the group as a whole. It has a very honest, well intentioned flavor to it, IMHO. Everyone really does have a say (unlike many other organizations).

OK, enough typing. It's time for a cold one and some TV. Tommorrow afternoon I get to take Flashv2.0 out for a spin.

I really love that plane :) .

B,
dr

redbeardmark said:
Doug,

Paul has a very good point here. Use both names. And, put BOTH names on stickers, mugs, hats, underwear(could be a big seller), etc. Many of us have become quite attached to the name "Van's Air Force". And, the name has been around long enough that the BATF probably doesn't get the willies anymore when hearing the name(it also helps that there are no documented cases of this "air force" group strafing parked spam cans or outhouses... ooops, that's a redundancy :D ).

But still, some folks might be put off by a name that has the words "air force" in it. Do we care? Hmmmm. It might be wise to choose words that are suited to the audience. This is not an attempt to be politically correct, rather an attempt to achieve a desired effect on the audience. In other words, don't use words just because it makes other people happy; use words in order to get what you want more easily.

Another point made by someone else in this thread: active builders ARE owners, they just haven't flown the airplane yet.

Although builder/pilots will probably constitute the lion's share of pilots for a long time to come, the number of RV pilots who purchased rather than built is likely to grow.

As far as people confusing our airplanes with automotive recreational vehicles or buses, well, save your breath because those folks are beyond help anyway ;)

Van's Air Force is already a de facto RV owners/pilots association. Use both names, and use them when/where/how you choose.

Mark Andrews N598X
builder/pilot
p.s. regarding contributions: some of use are a little absent-minded, maybe send an email annually expressing thanks for the previous year's contribution and offering the opportunity to continue contributing?
Click to expand...
 
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Doug,
I'm for keeping VAF, but if you go with the OPA thing, I personally wouldn't put the little thing below about "Our planes totally rock! Yours doesn't". I mean, RV's do rock, but that just comes across as being arrogant and snooty and most people I know that fly RV's aren't like that. I know it would all be in jest, but still.

This next part is for Dave Durakovich. I read your post, did I understand you correctly that you are encouraging Doug to charge some kind of mandatory fee? Don't forget that Doug has a lot of advertisers. It is easy to convince advertisers to advertise on VAF because of the incredible volume of traffic Doug has attracted to the site. Hopefully you see where I'm going. Start charging mandatory fees and, well you know what could happen. BTW, before anyone slams me in order to defend Doug, I know Doug, I consider Doug a friend, and I've contributed to Doug's site in the past. I love Doug's site and come here daily. I know how hard he works for all of us. I just think we should be careful what we ask for, for our sake as well as Doug's. (note to Doug: I know you are not advocating mando fees, I was just responding to Dave's post, hopefully this doesn't precipiatate your having to defend or clarify yourself on a position you haven't even taken.)

Tobin
Milton FL
 
Don't use the "...totally rock..." line. It sounds like something said by the same guy who said, "Karmageddon: It's like, when everybody is sending off all these really bad vibes, right? And then, like, the earth explodes and it's like, a
serious bummer. And then I went whoa, dude..."

The above quote is supposedly from The 2004 Washington Post's Style Invitational contest.

VAF,
Steve
 
I voted for option 2, VAF, and that's my recommendation for the following reasons...

1. Momentum - Van's Air Force as a concept already exists, has several local wings, and is widely known and recognized as the community of RV builders and flyers.
2. Tools - You already own both .net and .com VAF domains, and have permission to use the official VAF logo.
3. Symbology - The VAF logo is highly symbolic featuring an RV that is half plans but moves into a painted finished aircraft... the lifecycle of all RVs.
4. Uniqueness - RVOPA is a clear takeoff on AOPA whereas VAF has a slight military bend and is unlike any other aircraft type owners association or "community".

Now others have introduced the notion of a for-profit organization that provides benefits and sells merchandise. Not a bad idea actually although I'd recommend keeping a free section and forum for those unwilling to take that step.
 
Agreed and thanks as always, Randy.

Yep, the site will always be free and there will never be any 'members only' sections. As for the money angle I'm only thinking of selling a logo sticker and 'membership card' that comes with a unique number that will be part of a monthly drawing for stuff (oil, plugs, etc).

What I think sets my setup apart from others is that there won't ever be any 'members only' areas and that sending in a yearly donation is completely optional.

People who decide to not send in a yearly donation will see the exact same site that paying ones do (they just don't get a chance to win stuff). I *think* this way everyone wins (IMHO) and nobody is restricted from helpful information.

Of course, down the road I can leverage these numbers when dealing with various companies for discounts, etc. "The X,XXX members of VAF would like to make sure..." At least that's my take and I'm sure only more people are going to get involved with RVs down the road. 4,000+ flying now....who knows how many in ten years.

Best always,
dr
 
Doug,
I like either RVOPA or RVPA. Your point about professionalism is well founded. We seem to be a lot that are resistant to change. Pick one and go with it, we'll come around (sort of like the new web format).
Jaws :rolleyes:
 
DeltaRomeo said:
I'm currently leaning towards just chopping 'World Wide Wing' off the end of the name and going with the simpler name Van's Air Force.
Click to expand...

One thing that comes to mind is that there are a bunch of different "Wings of Vans Air force" out there, including this World Wide Wing. If the name of this group gets changed to "Vans Air Force", it imples that the different wings are part of this group, which isn't the case, at least yet. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/images/icons/icon7.gif
Smile

Regards,
Tom Velvick
 
Vaf

Why not keep VAF and then have Wings(by #), much as the EAA chapters. BTW what are the thoughts concerning joining with Van and supplementing the RVator publication with articles that are similar to the safety, construction and maintenance articles in some of the other ABC publications? :)
 
Ditto

ddurakovich said:
Doug,

Not to sound like I'm flip-flopping, but it was primarily the forums that I thought should be kept public!

However, being an amateur student of human nature (and remembering the multiple times I've been told by various A&P's that the only thing cheap about airplanes were the owners :eek: ), I really do believe that many, if not most people will not voluntarily pay for something they can get for free!

While I believe that the forums are necessary as a source of information, to keep people engaged, there are plenty of areas on the site (POH's, Parts bag contents, etc.) that are of significant benefit that have little impact on safety, building techniques, etc. I suspect that many of these things would be of value to people, and worth joining (or contributing) moreso than a decal for their car, boat, RV or Bonanza (although I really, really want the one that says Vans Air Force!).

And lastly, there are cerrtain realities of life that affect us all, with financial and time considerations usually being at the forefront. I DO NOT PRESUME to know you at all, but most people will not continue to do something forever without getting something out of it! You are providing a valuable service to the RV community, and probably spend a fair amount of time doing it. And if this is more successful than it already has been, will have to spend even MORE time at it! You may very well be a completely selfless person, but I suspect that if there is a lack of contibutors, it will eventually take it's toll.

With 4000+ flying, and probably at least that many under active construction, while Cap may be right and we are a rag-tag bunch, we are a BIG rag-tag bunch, and are (or will be) a force to be reckoned and negotiated with! I have no doubt that at some point there will be an 'Official' owners group for RV's, just as there is for so many other types. You already have the inclination, the structure, and the audience, and while it looks professional, many will never take it seriously if it is nothing more than a 'hobby' with voluntary contributions!

Dave
Click to expand...

Ditto, the above. Doug you do a LOT of work. For justice to be served you should be properly compensated. I am willing to join an organization to get the benefits of the organization. As Dave mentioned there has to be some benefit to being a member of RVPA or RVOPA and that is what you would be providing. John Frank has about 5 or 6 employees at CPA (maybe more) and several contributors to his magazine. The point here is that it takes a bunch of people (work) to run CPA and what you are embarking on is a BIG project. Thank you for all that you do Doug. And I thank Dave for expressing what I believe to be true too.
 
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