LASAR ignition fault code 16

The LASAR setup in our RV-6 occasionally drops out of "automatic" into "back-up" mode. Not a big problem in practice, since fixed 25* BTDC magnetos run the O-360-A1A fine, and cycling the LASAR controller brings it back... but this shouldn't be happening.

I've looked at the serial out from the controller, and the fault code when this happens is 16: "Non-sensor mag current -- defaults to backup and commands cockpit light when current is detected to be out of limits".

Talking to Joe Logie at Champion, this doesn't narrow it down all that much. It means the problem is either with the right mag, or with the controller box. I can send in the box, and they can run tests on it at no charge, but 2 week turnaround, and it's an older unit (1996 mfg date), not repairable or upgradeable.

So before I do that, I thought I would throw this out to the collective VAF brain trust. Anybody dealt with this error code before, and have any experience to share?

--Paul

This is a long shot.
High current values can sometimes be ground paths after current sensing points. So make sure the components in question are clean. Carbon bearing dirt is conductive.

Scott, thanks for that idea. There isn't any noticeable carbon dust or other crud that I can see. At the last condition inspection, I removed the mags, disassembled and cleaned them. I have removed the controller and disassembled it... looks very clean inside. All the cables and connectors, ignition harness etc. look good.

I sent the controller box off to Champion yesterday for testing. We'll see if they come up with anything. Meanwhile Joe Logie tells me in an email that there were lots of software bugs with the early LASAR controllers that caused "spurious glitches" like the one we are seeing. They didn't consider any of them important enough to issue SB's for, though they did fix them in later units. So I may end up looking for a serviceable post-2000 controller box; or I may just decide to live with this one.

--Paul

LASAR Ignition Q

Hello sir, I was wondering if you resolved your LASAR controller issue? I have a LASAR system in my (purchased flying)6A. My contrloller seems to have failed. It's almost impossible to start when hot (or even warm) so I'm thinking I have a temperature related failure mode. The indicator on the inst panel never comes on after power up. I'm not having much luck reaching someone at Champion. Do you happen to know what year the controllers become repairable? Mine's a 1998. Looking through the logs I found that the mags were replaced in 2005 and only have 460 hrs on them. If the controller was repairable I would consider repair but if I'm looking at $4K for a replacement controller I would consider other options. I'm going to attempt downloading trouble codes as well but sending the controller in may be my best option as well.
Thanks for any info. I've talked to several A&P's where I'm based and none are famaliar with the lasar system so I'm on my own.
Gunther Zion

Garage Guy said:

The LASAR setup in our RV-6 occasionally drops out of "automatic" into "back-up" mode. Not a big problem in practice, since fixed 25* BTDC magnetos run the O-360-A1A fine, and cycling the LASAR controller brings it back... but this shouldn't be happening.

I've looked at the serial out from the controller, and the fault code when this happens is 16: "Non-sensor mag current -- defaults to backup and commands cockpit light when current is detected to be out of limits".

Talking to Joe Logie at Champion, this doesn't narrow it down all that much. It means the problem is either with the right mag, or with the controller box. I can send in the box, and they can run tests on it at no charge, but 2 week turnaround, and it's an older unit (1996 mfg date), not repairable or upgradeable.

So before I do that, I thought I would throw this out to the collective VAF brain trust. Anybody dealt with this error code before, and have any experience to share?

--Paul

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Gunther,

The man to talk to about LASAR is Joe Logie at Champion: 904 772 1909. Give him a call. Or PM me and I'll give you his email address.

In my case, I removed the LASAR controller and sent it to Champion for testing. It turned out they could not test it, because they didn't have the correct cable to connect it to their test equipment... apparently that got lost in the transfer of Unison's assets to Champion. I received the unit back, and re-installed it, first taking care to clean the connector pins, which appeared to have some contamination. Result: it has worked perfectly ever since.

So, I got luckier than I deserved, on this one. I suggest talking to Joe and see what your options are. If it's not repairable, try double-checking all the cabling and see if that helps. As you say, it is a very expensive part to replace if you buy a new one from Champion. They do turn up on Ebay now and then, but be sure to match your part number, there are a bunch of different variations.

--Paul

LASAR controller

Thanks for the info Paul. I talked to Joe. He suggested I try a "push to test" on the indicator light. Apparently the builder didn't use this type of indicator because I don't have that feature. He did say I could sent the controller in and have it tested for free. Realistically though it's 12 years old and sending it in will keep me grounded for another couple of weeks. I'll take the connectors off and take a look though. I'm going to Osh so I'll (try to) make a decision on another ignition system. P Mag, Lightspeed Eng, Electroair, traditional Mags? The previous owner of the 6A bought new mags (now at 460 hrs) with an 03 date code so they may be worth some money (that could go toward a new system). Seems like the P mag is not there yet so I'll be checking out the Lightspeed and Electroair.
Gunther

Well - Well I hate to see this but ...

I have a LASAR System and it works fine I hate to see the change to Champion and to hear that the Ace product support man Joe told you that they can't checkout the controller because they don't have an interface cable. That is about as bad as it gets from a product support point of view. Obviously Champion has something up there sleeve - I hope it is a good thing but from the information here it looks doubtful.

I have the interface cable bought from Aircraft Spruce. When I first completed my RV-6A Unison had a really really good product support engineer. I had tremendously bad running engine because Lycoming had set the timing wrong on my factory new engine supplied by them with the LASAR ignition system. Never mind that they supplied a test cell run sheet indicating that everything was fine. It was off approximately 65 degrees in the advance direction. I bought the LASAR timing box from Van's and worked through my problem and ran the controller check with my laptop using the cable supplied by the product support engineer - it was fine.

My system had the non-sensor mag fail after around 450 hours but the sensor mag and the controller and the replacement non-sensor mag obtained from a fellow RV'r in California have performed well. I race my RV-6A and it does well there also.

The LASAR warning light does come on occasionally for no apparent reason and at all mag checks as described in the manual. It sometimes detects warning limit hits apparently and latches but it resets after shutting down and restarting the engine for your next flight. Unless you have a "BUSH" version the engine simply will not start by the starter if the controller has in fact failed. If the engine has stopped in flight it can be restarted by windmilling at 1500 rpm or above in the reverted to normal mag function mode. I had an occasion to test this in my early phase I testing after installing the LASAR warning light and a circuit breaker with a pullable open & pushable reset button as suggested by the truly great product support engineer at Unison at that time (early 2004).

Starting is never an issue for me except for two conditions:

1 - If the battery is low just forget it until the battery is recharged. It cannot be hand proped (unless you have the hand propable BUSH version of LASAR) and even with jumper cables mine just refuses to go. Leaving on the master as you go on a wine tour weekend can ruin the pleasant memories you acquired before you tried to restart the engine. If it is a XC Concord battery you might as well call Aircraft Spruce for a new one ASAP because it is not going to recharge period not matter what method is used. I've heard stories that conflict but twice burned has made this a shut down item that even my wife is sensitive to.

2 - When I start up cold I prime three cylinders through a solenoid primed valve and I usually hold the button in through six seconds (one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two...) and it usually bursts into operation immediately. If not I repeat the process and if it is really cold here in the great northwest (Arkansas that is) I may count to seven seconds. If I taxi to the fuel pump and shutdown for gas I do not re-prime AT ALL! If I do, I have to open the throttle wide, crank it and hope it clears the flood before my battery runs down. The same is true after a flight and a hot restart.

In summary the LASAR System has been very good for me, it always starts very well and I note the warning light as a warning that the controller may have failed and the system is truly operating in straight mag mode but THIS HAS NEVER ACTUALLY HAPPENED in ~600 hours of operation. I have purchased the T-100 mag service tool kit so that I can disassemble my mag for repair at home but from what your message tells me Champion is not going to be a dependable source for replacement parts.

My recommendation if you are looking for a change is go back to straight mags with impulse couplers and forget about the electronic ignition systems. I have racing associates with existing systems that when they fail, they fail dead - no get home on the old backup mag mode as with the LASAR system.

I hope this helps you and even more I hope Champion comes up with a serious support system and did did not buy as a competition kill shot like our GPS friends did in the past.

Bob Axsom

GWZ said:

I'll take the connectors off and take a look though.

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I had done that once, at condition inspection time last year, and it didn't make any difference. Then when I got the box back from Champion I thought I might as well take a closer look, following SHIPCHIEF's suggestion. There is a kind of electrolytic grease that is supposed to be used when installing the multipin connector on the controller, and it seemed to me there was more on there than necessary. And under a magnifying glass, it looked like maybe there was a bit of foreign material that had been captured in the grease. So, I cleaned it as best I could, leaving a little clean grease on it. Reconnected everything and it has worked perfectly in the 40 hours or so since. Worth a try at least.

I'm going to Osh so I'll (try to) make a decision on another ignition system. P Mag, Lightspeed Eng, Electroair, traditional Mags? The previous owner of the 6A bought new mags (now at 460 hrs) with an 03 date code so they may be worth some money (that could go toward a new system). Seems like the P mag is not there yet so I'll be checking out the Lightspeed and Electroair.

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I was running all those options through my mind too. Eventually I was leaning toward just getting a pair of regular mags, like 90% of the Lycomings out there, because it would be the easiest, and about the cheapest, way to go. But now the LASAR is working fine, I'm going to stay with it.

--Paul

Bob Axsom said:

I have a LASAR System and it works fine I hate to see the change to Champion and to hear that the Ace product support man Joe told you that they can't checkout the controller because they don't have an interface cable. That is about as bad as it gets from a product support point of view.

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If I understood Joe correctly, the bench technicians need different test harness cables for different versions of the controller, and they were just missing the one for this old 14 year old unit I had. He seemed genuinely appalled that this had happened, and paid for overnight return shipping to get the box back to me. But it took them two weeks to figure this out and I agree it doesn't inspire a warm fuzzy feeling about Champion's corporate commitment to this product line.

The LASAR warning light does come on occasionally for no apparent reason and at all mag checks as described in the manual. It sometimes detects warning limit hits apparently and latches but it resets after shutting down and restarting the engine for your next flight.

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Have you tried recycling the LASAR power in flight when that happens? That would pretty much always work for me, when we were getting that Code 16 fault. Takes about 20 seconds after cycling power for it to come back online, and meanwhile the engine runs fine in 'backup' mode (might have to richen the mixture a bit). Our EI electronic tach reads "0" when power to the LASAR is off, but you can deal with that.

1 - If the battery is low just forget it until the battery is recharged.

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One trick with low battery is, start cranking with the LASAR off. The LASAR draws some power, and this lets what's left of the battery concentrate on pulling in the solenoid and getting the prop spinning. Then flick the LASAR on. Of course if the battery is so low it won't spin the prop at all, this doesn't help.

2 - When I start up cold I prime three cylinders through a solenoid primed valve and I usually hold the button in through six seconds (one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two...) and it usually bursts into operation immediately.

Click to expand...

No primer solenoid in our installation, we just use the carb accelerator pump, but yes the LASAR does a great job of retarding spark for starting. (If there is enough battery to run it, that is.) Really quick, energetic starts.

In summary the LASAR System has been very good for me, it always starts very well and I note the warning light as a warning that the controller may have failed and the system is truly operating in straight mag mode but THIS HAS NEVER ACTUALLY HAPPENED in ~600 hours of operation.

Click to expand...

My understanding is that if the warning light comes on, the controller has detected a fault and HAS dropped back to straight mag mode. Some faults are 'healing' and will reset automatically after a certain interval if the condition causing the fault goes away, some are 'latching' and require a power cycle to reset, but if that light is on, you are running on 25* BTDC regular old magneto technology.

I have purchased the T-100 mag service tool kit so that I can disassemble my mag for repair at home but from what your message tells me Champion is not going to be a dependable source for replacement parts.

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All the recommendations I got said that for overhauling the LASAR mags, Progressive Air in Kamloops BC is the place to go. (They don't work on the controller boxes though.) I talked to them last year and they weren't worried about parts then. Also a lot of parts are shared between the LASAR 4700 series and the vanilla 4300 Slick mags. So I think we'll be OK for a while yet.

--Paul

Paul:

I see you are in San Diego. There are several of us a little farther north in SoCAL that also have LASAR systems. I am based at CCB and another Paul is based at L00.) Between Paul and myself, we have spare LASAR mags (4), spare controller box (1), spare controller box to mag cable, computer interface test cable, T-100 tool kit, timing light (2), and a paid subscription to all the service bulletins and manuals. Have so far been unable to locate pin removal and insertion tools or parts for the connector that is used on the LASAR controller and mags.

We are not experts on the LASAR system but are not afraid to open them up, follow directions in the manuals, and attempt to make them work. Both my friend Paul and I are Electrical Engineers for aerospace contractors.

IF I did not already have a working LASAR and the tools / manuals to keep it working, I would go with the G3I system on a set of Bendix mags.

LASAR Mags

Wow, this has been a valuable discussion. I'm going to the hangar tonight and look that connector over again, also I discovered my primer ports were completely clogged so that may have contributed to the hard starting. I'm sure my tach works so maybe that means the box is not (completely) dead. I'm also an Elect Eng and have been thinking of opening that box up to see if it's anything obvious. Back in 98 I'll bet they were using a lot of discrete components. If it's temperature related though I'd have to make a test fixture of some sort to get it working on the bench to be able to go at it with a heat gun/freeze spray.

Gunther

If you can start the engine at all the box is not dead

The controller box is fairly good size but I don't think 1998 is so far back that you can depend on a lot of discrete components - we were using ICs in the 70s. Just from the shape I would expect to find two or three stacked printed circuit assemblies, maybe multilayer, as the major structural implementation. You will probably find some resisters and capacitors there but I would expect all of the active components to be ICs. Without a schematic, parts list and wiring diagram you are just playing shade tree mechanic. I doubt that there is anything wrong with your controller at all ... at this point.

Bob Axsom

LASAR controller

Hi Bob, you are correct of course, I was just hoping for something obvious, like a fried resistor or blown up cap or maybe even an internal fuse. I removed the connector and looked it over again, it looks clean. I tried to start it and no luck at all. That's good really, having something intermittent is worse than a total failure (at least on the ground). Do any of you on this thread have an opinion of what my LASAR mags might be worth? they have 460 hrs and have an 03xxxxx serial number which puts them in the "repairable" category (in slicks eyes anyway) and out of the S/N ranges that are affected by the SBs. I've really enjoyed the super quick starts and the performance the LASAR system has given me so I'm still considering an electronic ignition. I really like the looks of the P-Mag and am watching the forum closely for problems with the 114 version. My unofficial survey at Osh showed that over half the people I happened to talk to were running one mag and one EI (most were running the Lightspeed).
Gunther

LASAR Qs

Hi Rivethead, the big problem with the LASAR system is that unless you have the "Bush Kit" neither of the mags has an impulse coupler, so if the box dies in flight you are ok (the system falls back to mags as you describe) but when you land you can't get the engine started (ask me how I know!). I don't believe it's correct or normal for the light to come on at low speed. As described earlier in this thread that light should only come on during the start up procedure or if there is a problem with the system.
Gunther