What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

IFR flying

B

Bavafa

Well Known Member
I have been working on getting my ticket for IFR and hopefully will have my check ride in about a week. The hardest part so far for me has been the radio work and was wondering if any one has any suggestion in ways to get better at that. I have been listening to different approach/Tower etc on the Web and it is not as hard (though still miss a bit of it) since I am doing nothing but writing down instructions. But when you have to aviate (and in an RV is not the easiest thing) navigate and then get all the instructions, it becomes a hefty task for me. I am even wondering if I should continue, its like 90% done and 90% to go :(
 
I wouldn't get too discouraged

A couple of things work in your favor as far as communications are concerned:

1) The controllers typically use a very standard format for clearances so once you get used to the format it isn't that difficult to understand what they are saying.

2) You can always ask them to repeat their transmission if necessary.

Don't be afraid to ask questions either. Often I have trouble finding VORs or other waypoints because I can't figure out how to spell them. If I can't find the waypoint on my chart, I just ask them to spell it.

Have a pad and a pen handy and write down what you hear (even if initially you don't understand it).

As far as approaches are concerned, study the plate before you get to the airport and try to visualize how the approach will work. Generally, the controllers will do exactly what you expect. Of course this isn't always true, I have been vectored through the final approach course in IFR weather a few times (and it definitely can get confusing).

If you feel you are behind the power curve talking to a controller, just say so. Unless you are in very busy airspace like around NYC or ATL, the controllers will work with you (within reason).

You will get more comfortable with comms as you get more experience. Like any skill, it takes some practice to get good at it. Make a habit to file IFR even on VFR days just to work on comms and navigation.

Lastly, I hope you have an autopilot if you fly IFR regularly. It makes all the difference in the world to have the autopilot when you are trying to find things on the chart, write down clearance changes etc.
 
You can go to liveatc.net and listen to live audio feeds from many airports and practice copying clearances. You did not mention if you have an autopilot. Single pilot IFR requires an autopilot in my book, especially in an RV.
 
Keep it up your almost there! The IFR ticket is one of the most rewarding of all.

Remember to read back headings, altitudes and clearances. So when they give you a string of info, clue into the HAC's.

Use your 5 t's (Turn, Time, Twist, Throttle and Talk).

Remember T.I.T (tune, identify and track) for all your en route.

Try to keep your situational awareness (not always an easy task). Visualize your position in relation to your destination.

Enter your holds with the least amount of turning possible. Know your winds aloft! Make rule of thumb estimates and crab into the wind accordingly.

Try to visualize all your approaches in advance. Know your altitudes! Don't go below. Keep you scan going, but don't fixate.

Your examiner doesn't expect perfection. Just use good, safe procedures. NOTHING had to be done instantly. Take one task at a time.

Throttle back. Take your time.
 
Experience is your best friend - there is no substitute for time in the saddle. DO NOT BE AFRAID to ask for a repeat, and don't feel afraid to tell them you are an IFR student. That will automatically grant you "student treatment" from the controllers and you will have an easier time picking it up. Even once you have your ticket, don't be afraid to ask for assistance. Most of these guys will go out of their way to assist if they have any idea you might need it.
 
Thanks all for your good feedback. I do have an A/P but my instructor does not allow me to use it while learning. I know once I can delegate some of the tasks to the A/P, it would make a lot of difference. I have actually had less of an issue with the approach itself, mostly when the instructions comes in a rather longer string. Another thing that makes it much harder for me when I am actually in the cloud. I seem to do much much better under the hood then without it. Once I asked my instructor if I can keep the hood on when we were in the cloud? the answer was negative

Anyway, thanks in advance and I agree that there is no substitution for experience.
 
Things are always easier when you know what to expect and radio work is no different. After you fly in the system a bunch you will be able to anticipate alot of what the controller is about to tell you.
writing a mnemonic down the page such as :
c (clearance limit)
r (route)
a (altitude)
f (freq)
t (transponder code)
s (special instructions)

gives you a heads up on what's coming next when receiving a clearance and using IFR shorthand like ^5000 means climb to 5000...the ^ is a arrow up but don't know how to do that on a computer, will help speed the writting and give you more time to think and listen.

Like the above mentioned if in doubt get clarification, that's what the pro's do.
 
Bavafa said:
I have been listening to different approach/Tower etc on the Web and it is not as hard (though still miss a bit of it) since I am doing nothing but writing down instructions. But when you have to aviate (and in an RV is not the easiest thing) navigate and then get all the instructions, it becomes a hefty task for me.
Click to expand...
A real key thing is to be ahead of what's happening, so you can expect what ATC is going to tell you. Then it gets a whole lot easier. There's a flow that you are fitting into, and when you get a feeling for what that is, the instructions become almost obvious. Situational awareness is a big part of that... "That last vector right to heading 180 has me about 90 degrees to the final approach course... so this is the base leg... next vector probably will be to intercept, with a descent altitude and the approach clearance..." Deviations from the flow happen, but the basic flow gives you the context to understand what they are, and ATC will usually point them out: "Fly heading 180, vector through the final approach course for sequencing, we'll get you back to it."

You mentioned listening to ATC on the web. One thing I find really helps to supplement that is to view the approach plates and STARs for the sector while you are listening to it. Pick a busy one like the Socal Approach 124.35 sector (streaming http://d.liveatc.net/kmyf_app.m3u) during afternoon rush. Then go to http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp and for KSAN download the Lyndi Two STAR and LOC 27 approach, the KMYF ILS 28R, the KSDM VOR-A, and the KSEE LOC-D. That one controller is handling an insane amount of traffic into all those airports, and the only way it can work is for everyone to be handled in as standard a way as possible. Looking at the approach plates, you can figure out what that is. You'll see that pretty much everyone at the same point is getting pretty much the same instructions from ATC... From the point of view of information theory, the bit rate is really quite low :).
I am even wondering if I should continue, its like 90% done and 90% to go :(
Click to expand...
That's an easy one: definitely! Like every rating you get, it's really a license to keep learning.

--Paul
 
Good Luck!

If you are nearing the check ride, I don't see any choice but to press on. It would be much better to have gotten your instrument rating in a docile Cessna 172 or Piper Archer then stay current in your RV. I had flown IFR for 20 years in my Piper Archer II including 15 years of flying to work every day in the LA basin never using the autopilot. I didn't think I would need it in my RV-6A so I didn't install one. For a little over a year I flew it IFR without an autopilot and it was a significant challenge (read very difficult). You are a superman to come as far as you have and you should not give up on the rating if the instructor approves you for the checkout by the examiner and you fail - it is likely that they have no appreciation for how much more difficult it is fly the RV under these conditions than a Cessna or Piper that plod along like a grazing cow. The rating can save your life and make your airplane more useful for travel. This past weekend the conditions around Fayetteville, Arkansas were at best marginal vmc and four people were killed in a Bonanza flying from Hot Springs for a Razorback basketball game (University of Arkansas). It is probably a good thing that the instructor is not allowing you to use your autopilot (probably required) because you more fully appreciate what is required and are more self reliant but it is a tall order for you to demonstrate smoothness and competence for the instructor and the examiner in your RV. Experience will make you better but it will never be easy.

Bob Axsom
 
Bavafa said:
I have been working on getting my ticket for IFR and hopefully will have my check ride in about a week. The hardest part so far for me has been the radio work and was wondering if any one has any suggestion in ways to get better at that. I have been listening to different approach/Tower etc on the Web and it is not as hard (though still miss a bit of it) since I am doing nothing but writing down instructions. But when you have to aviate (and in an RV is not the easiest thing) navigate and then get all the instructions, it becomes a hefty task for me. I am even wondering if I should continue, its like 90% done and 90% to go :(
Click to expand...

First, please continue your IFR training. You'll regret it forever if you quit. Sometimes it's like trying to take a drink out of a fire hose. But one day it will click and start to become natural for you.

My other recommendation is to go visit a tower that has an approach control. You'll have to call in advance, but most towers are very accomodating. Be sure to identify yourself as a pilot doing IFR training. Meet the controllers, listen and watch them work for awhile. and share with them your radio issues. I'm sure they'll give you a few pointers from their perspective.


bob
 
I also had problems with picking up ATC instructions when I was a student. It was especially difficult for me to get the approach instructions because the controller just rattles them off to you with no warning. Once it sank in that they always used the same format and had an idea when I would receive them so I was ready, it made it easier. I also then and still have no problems asking the controller to repeat an instruction or spell a waypoint.

What helped me the most was going to the airport with my hand held and and approach plates then listen in on all the controllers from en-route, approach, to tower and clearance delivery. Clearance delivery can rattle off some pretty long clearances here in the DC/Baltimore area so my shorthand in copying clearances came along pretty quickly.

On my last trip up the NE corridor I was rerouted twice in the air with some complex routes and had no trouble writing them down and complying.

To help while in the air, speak slowly to the controller and often they will speak slowly back to you. I hadn't thought about that until I flew IFR with an older pilot, ex B17 WWII pilot old, who spoke slowly and the controllers automatically reciprocated. Hopefully you are right handed while flying the -7 so you can write and hold the stick steady at the same time. Also, try holding the stick steady between your thighs while copying instructions, they move a lot less than your hands and arms....just be sure you are trimmed out properly.

Keep at it. You'll be a much better and more confident pilot when you are done and have a few IFR flights under your belt.
 
Last edited:
FWIW...I'm also getting IFR refreshed...

....after many years of no IFR filing or flying.

You guys have helped me and probably many others with these great answers
as I get back up to speed in the -10 which now has a 430W and an ADI II.

Thanks guys,
 
I felt the exact same way at the 90% mark. My Instructor gave the same advice many have in this thread to continue and it will click. He was right, it seems not long before the check ride it all came together and kinda fell in place. Check ride went better than expected and I look back now after 20 years very thankful to have accomplished it.

Hang in there, it will come for you!
 
Continue & practice, abreviate, practice..........

Bavafa said:
..... The hardest part so far for me has been the radio work and was wondering if any one has any suggestion in ways to get better at that....... I am even wondering if I should continue, its like 90% done and 90% to go :(
Click to expand...

The IFR ticket is well worth getting. Don't even think of quiting

Find abbreviations to make copying clearances more manageable. I use a mix of abbreviation and graphical symbols

Keep practicing & look for simplifications in copying.

When you have a moment of slack, always look for what needs to be done next and do it proactively to reduce future workload.

Also, to a degree you set the pace by controlling your airspeed. If things are moving too fast, slow down the airplane
 
We've All Been Where You Are Now

Lots of very good advice here. Looks like you're doing most of your flying in the land of Radar Vectors, so you're already in the deep end of the pool. That's a good thing, as what you're experiencing is as complicated as it's likely to get - certainly from an ATC perspective.
An earlier post suggested filing everywhere you go from this point forward. I think that's a great idea as you'll find it will help to continue to improve your skills and confidence. I would only add that you try to do all this practice without your autopilot. That way, if you decide to use it during a flight in IMC, it will be an aid, rather than a crutch. Sounds like you're getting good, solid instruction.
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
 
Practice makes Perfect

I had one of my former students tell me, quite humbly, the following:

"Don, I'm not bragging, but I'm a member of Mensa, and this instrument training is HARD!"

He eventually got it and frequently tells me "It's so easy now..."

Most of IFR flying is knowing what to expect and when. ATC is much more rigorous with phraseology than any pilot. For instance, you will always hear "(your callsign), position 3 miles from the localizer, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS Rwy 36...)

You hear the word "position" and that's a tap on the shoulder...

To help me teach I used to subscribe to IFR magazine. You pick up a few tricks now and then. After some experience, you'll feel like a pro.
 
It's Good...

that your instructor doesn't allow you to use the A/P, but ask him to let you fly a few approaches with it on. You might surprise yourself by doing so, because now you have different things to monitor, plus you still have to control the airspeed with the throttle. Flying by hand and flying by autopilot are two different animals. Also, if you have a two-axis autopilot, fly with only one mode selected and hand-fly the other two.

You will probably find that using the autopilot is not as easy as simply punching a few buttons. Your instructor might learn a few things too:) When I first checked out in the 737 with FMC's (flight management computers), the instructors told us that some of the most common sayings they would hear in the sim were: "Where's it going now?" and "Why is it doing that?" And they were right. Even though we had the aircraft on autopilot, we didn't understand the source for the autopilot's signals or we didn't have the FMC programmed correctly (GPS in your case). You might find that you forgot to switch from a Nav source to a GPS source.

Get to the point of feeling comfortable both hand-flying and monitoring the A/P and exhibit proficiency in both. You will get there:D

HTH!
 
Like a poster above said, don't be afraid to ask for a repeat. I went to a CFI refresher clinic years ago, one of the instructors was an older Texan with every rating in the book. He told the story of a clearance delivery controller firing off a clearance so fast he couldn't copy it. He said he paused, and with his Texas drawl slowly responded "Any of that important?" I never forgot that story. Stick with it and good luck.
 
MSFT-1 said:
Make a habit to file IFR even on VFR days just to work on comms and navigation.
Click to expand...

Hang in there. You will be glad you did. Lot's of excellent advice given here. This quote from Bruce is one I really recommend. Even now, before you have your rating, you can utilize flight following on most flights and the communications are the same.

Good luck!
 
I still remember my check ride 30 years ago. My examiner put me in a hold and then after a couple times around shot me a clearance with a lot of intersections and non standard fixes. I couldn't find all of them on the map (before GPS). I did not leave the hold and asked for help. The lesson he taught me, never accept a clearance until you thoroughly understand your route of flight. He would have busted me if I had left the hold without finding all the fixes.

Studying SIDs and STARs help if you are departing or arriving at busy airports.
 
Hopefully your instructor is allowing you to use the autopilot for some coupled approaches if it is capable. That is a required demonstration on the practical.
 
I am currently doing upgrades on my 7A to make it instrument flight capable so I can do my instrument training in it. When I say "currently" I mean I was cutting holes in the panel last night and I have a mess of wires and harnesses dangling inside the airplane. :)

Naturally I'm finding this thread very interesting. Let us know how the checkride goes! Good luck!
 
Take the AOPA Air Safety Foundation Course Mastering Radio Comm

I found this very helpful in cleaning up my ATC communications. I learned to fly at a Class C airport and now fly out of Santa Monica so interation with ATC is a daily occurance. This is a good course which really helped me clean up my terminology. The controllers definitley handle you different when you speak their language.

http://flash.aopa.org/asf/radiocomm/swf/flash.cfm?
 
IFR Training

Practice and More Practice! The IFR rating is a tough nut and often takes more training and hours than earning the private ticket. As you are experiencing, the single-pilot IFR cockpit is the ultimate example of serious multitasking.
Stay with it and keep a positive outlook - just remember it does take many hours of hard work to put it all together.
 
Autopilot Not Required

scard said:
Hopefully your instructor is allowing you to use the autopilot for some coupled approaches if it is capable. That is a required demonstration on the practical.
Click to expand...

Hi Scott:
The Practical Test Standards for Instrument Rating (FAA-S-8081-D) call for the applicant to utilize an autopilot, if installed, "during the instrument practical test to assist in the management of the aircraft". This assist may involve only a very short period during the flight exam. Further, "the applicant will be required to demonstrate the use of the autopilot during one of the non-precision approaches". An additional non-precision, specifically without the AP or radar vectors, is also required. No requirement for a coupled approach.
However, glad to see your examiner had you demonstrate all the equipment. Not much point in having it if you don't know how and where it can help you.
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
 
terrykohler said:
Hi Scott:
The Practical Test Standards for Instrument Rating (FAA-S-8081-D) call for the applicant to utilize an autopilot, if installed, "during the instrument practical test to assist in the management of the aircraft". This assist may involve only a very short period during the flight exam. Further, "the applicant will be required to demonstrate the use of the autopilot during one of the non-precision approaches". An additional non-precision, specifically without the AP or radar vectors, is also required. No requirement for a coupled approach.
However, glad to see your examiner had you demonstrate all the equipment. Not much point in having it if you don't know how and where it can help you.
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification. I shouldn't have used the word coupled. I just think of any modern autopilot in an RV as being used coupled to some nav solution. I guess you could just use a wing leveler with heading hold or something, how retro that would be :).
 
Don't forget the repeat feature on many audio panels. I know both PS Engeneering and Garmin Audio Panels allow you to push 1 button and hear the last transmission again. A real help.

Gary Specketer
 
It helped me, to write the clearance on a yellow pad with a first grade #2 pencil, in much larger print than normal. I listened to a scanner at home and soon developed a shorthand that was easy to read back and to follow.
Don't quit!
H
 
Lots of encourgments and many great advises here, so many thanks for that.
I am fairly confiedent that it will only get easier with experince and just looking forward to that day. To be honest? I think my instructor has been pushing my limites during the last couple of lessens perhaps to get me really ready for the check ride as we go to three/four different airports all within 10 miles of each other. So, as you can imagine, lots of botton/knobs to push, get the right AP and still fly and talk. And in terms of instructions from ATC, I understand them much better then I can repeat them back and that becomes a "slap in the back of the head" from my instructor.
 
Lots of good advice

You're almost there -- keep on. As you said, your instructor is pushing you to your limits for training (and when do you ever expect to fly IFR to multiple airports, all within 10 miles of each other?).

As a 35 year CFII, 25 year (now retired) air traffic controller, and now a UAV pilot, I'm sure that if you can fly IFR in your RV (no easy task), you're doing well. On the controller side -- all the advice about listening and learning the 'rythm' of air traffic is very true. The clearances mostly all come in the same format, the controllers do what to be helpful (as an ATC supervisor I had to get on them occasionally for getting themselves into difficult traffic situations by being too accomodating), and with good situational awareness, you will learn to anticipate what is coming. Above all else, if you need help, ask for it. Don't be afraid of the system. They are there to provide a service to you --- do your part and be as professional as possible. Review your charts and plates before your flights, be organized in the cockpit, and be professional on the radio.

Have fun, and good luck.

Howard Long
CFII, Retired LA Center Controller, UAV pilot (presently overseas)
 
Great helps - Thanks

I'm in the same boat, passed the IFR knowledge test, been fighting weather and plane down for engine work for six months to finish my IFR rating. I was ready for the checkride, but now I've got to spend a few weeks getting it all back together again before the checkride. All the words of encouragement and good tips are helpful to me as well. I have found that MS Flightsim X is extremely helpful for keeping IFR training up when conditions don't allow real flying - assuming it has an airplane similar to the one you're actually flying.
 
Well folks, I like to report that after a few more lesson, mainly my x-country trip that gave me a bit more time with ATC, has helped me relax much more and am far better with the radio work. Things are coming together much better now and staying relax has been a great help. I am scheduling my check ride in a week or so, so the I am on track.
Once again thanks for all the advise and encouragements.
 
It's true, flying under the hood with a sadistic instructor giving you instructions is worse than what ATC will give you in real life, 99% of the time. But the instructor has your best interest in mind. They want to prepare you to handle that 1%.

The checkride will be halfway in between. Mostly a standard series of approaches, but with a stress riser or two thrown in. Sounds like you will be ready...

Let us know how it goes!

--Paul
 
Keep at it

Bravada:

I flew for 25 years and it still was a challenge sometimes. When your busy aviating, and navigating, the communicating always seems to suffer. But that is the way it should be. Just remember, you can always ask them to repeat. If they are worth their salt , they'll understand that sometimes they tend to machine-gun out the clearances.

Don't quit.

Ruley
N277PM
LAF
RV-7A
 
Old dogs and new tricks!!

Don't feel too bad. I've been out of IFR flying for many years and just spent 1.7 hours under the hood yesterday (for the second time) with a really good ol' Southern instructor with that good ol' Southern drawl:)

He really task-loaded me with turns to headings while climbing to prescribed altitudes while maintaining a given airspeed and rate of climb:eek:

I was also pleasantly surprised to find that my TruTrak ADI II will fly an RNAV approach down the centerline of the runway, driven by the 430W:)

I'd really suggest an autopilot if you're gonna do a lot of IMC though,

Best,
 
pierre smith said:
.....I'd really suggest an autopilot if you're gonna do a lot of IMC though,
Click to expand...

So would I. There will be trips where everything will go as planned and there will be trips where it won't.

The primary task is to fly the airplane as per the clearance. When the clearance gets changed for whatever reason things can get very busy. To fly a heading, altiutude and airspeed, copy a clearance and then reprogram a GPS or find the new route on a map is quite a work load for anyone without a copilot or auto pilot. Throw in a frequency change and/or have to deal with turbulence, rain and maybe ice, the work load is overwhelming.

With an autopilot, at least one can throw it on altitude hold and select a heading to get going in the right direction.

Single pilot IFR without an auto pilot is still legal but only if it is for personal flying. All commercial operations require a copilot or auto pilot IFR. That was not always the case but it has been so for many years - and for good reason.
 
Oh yes, I would not have got past the fifth hour of training if I knew I would have to hand fly it all the time. I have the TT VSGV coupled to the 430W and GRT and can fly actually fairly complex flight plans down to the center of the runway. My instructor had me fly one just to make sure I know how to use it and he was very surprised as how accurately every thing went.

Regards
 
It is official

Well folks, it is done and official. I had my check ride scheduled for today and after two hours of ground and hour and half of flying I passed the checkride with flying colors.

Now looking forward to acutally put some of new skills to use, though very slowly and cautiously.

thanks for your support and encouragments
 
congrats.......

you the new man. dont waste any time. get right out there and file in nice wx. then build up. short trips to start.
heard a jet jock getting a full reroute clearance. took him 3 times to get it all. dont ever fell pressured, take your time when you are on the radio. it is your dime. brush up on your pilot/ controller glossary page 933 FAR/ AIM. when doing an approach dont forget to tell them what you want to do after the approach, full stop, low approach followed by what. think ahead. welcome to the cloud busters. have fun. a great rating.
i was at block island when the fog rolled in. it was a mad house ,vfr guys trying to get out. filed, popped out at 400 ft and went home. be safe.
 
Bavafa said:
Well folks, it is done and official. I had my check ride scheduled for today and after two hours of ground and hour and half of flying I passed the checkride with flying colors.

Now looking forward to acutally put some of new skills to use, though very slowly and cautiously.

thanks for your support and encouragments
Click to expand...

Mehrdad,
Congrats on the accomplishment,

I can't believe you had to go through a 2 hour ground!!! I hate to read this as I am starting my IFR training, I'm just not sure I want to go through it again.
 
Tim,
If I had kept a count, I am sure there are more times that I wanted to quit then number of approaches that I have done in the process but I am very glad to have stayed with it, thanks to the encouragements of many including on this site.

It is really very much worth the effort and makes one a much better pilot.

In regards to the oral portion of the check ride, I got to say that it was the hardest part despite my extended study and doing very well on the ground test. He went thru stuff that I had not seen/read anywhere or covered during my ground training with my instructor.

Anyway, good luck and stay with it. You will be glad when is done.
 
Congratulations

Way to go. I can't wait to hear your thoughts the next time you popped out on top, into clear sunshine, it might be something like; "Yeah, I'm glad I did that."

Let the real learning begin.

Paul
LAF
N277PM
Wings
 
Or..."Whew, that was close"...

Pbr47906 said:
Way to go. I can't wait to hear your thoughts the next time you popped out on top, into clear sunshine, it might be something like; "Yeah, I'm glad I did that."

Let the real learning begin.

Paul
LAF
N277PM
Wings
Click to expand...

........as you find the ground when you were out of ideas, gas and a minimum overcast:eek:

Best,
 
Tim 8-A said:
Mehrdad,
Congrats on the accomplishment,

I can't believe you had to go through a 2 hour ground!!! I hate to read this as I am starting my IFR training, I'm just not sure I want to go through it again.
Click to expand...

Tim, not to worry. There are just so many new things to cover in IFR flying that it can take a while for an examiner to get an idea of your knowledge of instrument flying. If you think a 2 hour oral is bad, just wait until you do your first CFI rating.
 
a few points........

if you get a high score on your written, your oral might be a bit easier.they have these results before that exam. this was my case and all i remember of my oral, which was very short, was the first question he asked me. he pointed out the smallest thing on the ifr chart, a small 1/8 inch circle with a dot in it. it is the smallest thing on the chart and it took 1 second to tell him what it was. the oral stopped soon afterword. great flight 3 approaches ect.

if you want to get great ifr hood time try flying at NIGHT under the hood. it is the closest to the real thing except the ride will be very smooth. congrats again. turbo
img0212v.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top