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jeff beckley
09-18-2009, 07:51 AM
Can I get a witness for any one flying the new Trutrak EFIS with the AP IV?
How does the two efis's compare in regards to flying ILS operations.

Brantel
09-18-2009, 08:01 AM
Since the Dynon AP currently won't fly the GS on any approach, not sure you can make a comparison here...

dynonsupport
09-18-2009, 10:56 AM
And the AP IV can't receive any information at all from an ILS receiver, so I'd say we win since we can at least fly the horizontal portion. Even once they do have the ARINC converter, Jeff has been told that they won't do the vertical portion either:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=359765&postcount=44

He might be asking about the depiction on the EFIS portion, not the AP, but we still win since we can show the CDI and GS from an ILS and they can't yet.

TrutrakTech
09-18-2009, 03:42 PM
Please read my updated post as I believe Jeff made his post before we spoke on the phone today.

The AP IV WILL display and WILL (not quite yet though) fly a coupled approach. As soon as the ARINC module is finished, all EFIS models will be able to display VOR/LOC info. Also, the EFIS does currently support serial interface to an SL30 for VOR/LOC display.

Brantel
09-18-2009, 03:59 PM
Looks like Dynon better get moving......AP76 anyone?

jeff beckley
09-18-2009, 05:55 PM
Wow I got four Emails today from people with a beef about Dynon dropping support for the AP76. Normally I would blow that off but coming off a bad purchase of a Blue Mountain EFIS I feel their pain. Planning a panel and purchasing a product with the expressed idea that a particular product will soon follow then finding out later that it was only vaporware really sucks!
I HAVE BEEN THERE!
Dynon you lose real credibility with me and future customers if you do not follow through with promises of product delivery.
If you promised a product would come out and sold systems based on that promise then you should make good. Have you not learned from Blue Mountain?
Do not misunderstand... I think Dynon makes some great products and the customer support is good but unless they get this straightened out I'm kicking them off the island.
Sorry for the rant but I am taking it in the shorts for just this thing....

nucleus
09-18-2009, 07:26 PM
Wow I got four Emails today from people with a beef about Dynon dropping support for the AP76. Normally I would blow that off but coming off a bad purchase of a Blue Mountain EFIS I feel their pain. Planning a panel and purchasing a product with the expressed idea that a particular product will soon follow then finding out later that it was only vaporware really sucks!
I HAVE BEEN THERE!
Dynon you lose real credibility with me and future customers if you do not follow through with promises of product delivery.
If you promised a product would come out and sold systems based on that promise then you should make good. Have you not learned from Blue Mountain?
Do not misunderstand... I think Dynon makes some great products and the customer support is good but unless they get this straightened out I'm kicking them off the island.
Sorry for the rant but I am taking it in the shorts for just this thing....

Dynon is a very solid supplier, don't blame them. Garmin, AFS, and GRT have all had upcoming model delays and or changes.

I take issue with people who plan their panels around "upcoming" products. These modern avionics products are complex and need lots of debugging. One little component sourcing issue can cause major delays. Delays and product line reshuffles are part of the game.

From the get-a-clue department:

Wait until the product is actually shipping before you plan your panel around it.

Hans

jeff beckley
09-18-2009, 08:35 PM
Dynon is a very solid supplier, don't blame them. Garmin, AFS, and GRT have all had upcoming model delays and or changes.

I take issue with people who plan their panels around "upcoming" products.
Wait until the product is actually shipping before you plan your panel around it.

Hans

I see... You would rather blame the customer for believing what the supplier promises rather than holding the supplier feet to the fire. That"s rich!
I know Dynon is a solid supplier and I hope they stay that way.
I know delays happen but where has Dynon posted that they intend to go ahead with the AP76? I just read "on hold" and when asked directly on this board I see no reply's from Dynon that it is still in the works. Makes me think that it will never come out.
I am not trying to bash Dynon but hope to educate them that promises are taken very seriously. Some of us invest a ton of time and money based on faith from the words of the suppliers.
But you think we are stupid for believing them. You might be right..
You said not to blame Dynon because Garmin, AFS, GRT has had delays but the difference is that they all delivered everything they promised. I fully expect Dynon will do the same.
Blue Mountain set the lower limits on customer service. I would rather deal with the IRS than deal with them again. I hope no other supplier ever gets that close again.
Dynon needs to identify the customers that are impacted by the change and work to resolve their loses or make a statement that the AP76 is delayed but rest assured will be delivered. Until then I will hold reservations.

Brantel
09-18-2009, 09:47 PM
:confused: Thanks for the lesson on life DOC, but the reality is that the technological world runs on what you call vaporware and promises. The computer you typed that on was created based on someone's promise that software would be there in the future to control it. Manufacturers all over the world tool up to build components for larger assemblies that are promised to be produced. etc. etc. :cool:

From the get-a-clue department:
Hans

L.Adamson
09-18-2009, 09:54 PM
I would rather deal with the IRS than deal with them again.

No.. you wouldn't...

L.Adamson

Brantel
09-18-2009, 10:01 PM
And the AP IV can't receive any information at all from an ILS receiver, so I'd say we win since we can at least fly the horizontal portion. Even once they do have the ARINC converter, Jeff has been told that they won't do the vertical portion either:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=359765&postcount=44

He might be asking about the depiction on the EFIS portion, not the AP, but we still win since we can show the CDI and GS from an ILS and they can't yet.

Yea but can your AP fly a GPS course without dropping out every few minutes and giving an error requiring a reset of the AP?

How well does your highly marketed Alt hold and change function work in anything but smooth air?

Have you figured out yet why even though your SV32 servo has more torque than the TT servo for the same aircraft, your servo slips excessively and in some cases you have recommended moving up to the larger and heavier SV42 model?

How many controls/parameters do you give the end customer in order for them to fine tune and tweak your AP's performance to a particular aircraft?

How many employees of Dynon are actively working on the AP development/bug fixes full time?

Please help me with these questions to help me feel better about myself and the fact that I bought into the "VaporWare" as Nucleus called it.

RV10inOz
09-20-2009, 02:06 AM
I take issue with people who plan their panels around "upcoming" products. These modern avionics products are complex and need lots of debugging. One little component sourcing issue can cause major delays. Delays and product line reshuffles are part of the game.

Ohh do you?

When it is printed and advertised with a Price and a delivery date, you should be pretty much right to go.

DB:cool:

RV10inOz
09-20-2009, 02:10 AM
Another point, and I am not suggesting that you should not hammer suppliers for poor performance, but we have no problems with the A/P dropping out however we do use the G530W and ARINC429. I suspect the problems are serial links with the GX96 products.

We have more issues with teh G530W being so fussy with sattelites and going into DR mode. :cool:

DB

Jamie
09-20-2009, 05:24 AM
One thing to consider when you are planning around a yet-to-be-released product is that you will by definition be putting a 1.0 product in your airplane. I don't know about you guys, but I am FINISHED paying good money and putting 1.0 products in my airplane with any expectation that they will actually work as advertised.

rbibb
09-20-2009, 05:55 AM
Interesting thread. As a -10 builder that is starting to think about avionics planning (I'm still year or two away from flying) I've been trying to follow these threads. As someone who has been involved in the electronics business for 30 years or so I can see both sides in the "vaporware" discussion.

I think the thing that really amazes me is the large number of players in the EFIS/AP, etc market targeted toward mainly experimental aviation. The market is just so small. The complexity of the features being developed, the real downside to product failure, the extreme difficulty and expense of real-world testing and it is hard to see how the market can support the number of vendors. Add in that the support costs in the market model is very high as I see direct-to-consumer support being offered on a one-off basis time and again and again I wonder how anyone is making any money.

So wondering what horse to hitch my future wagon to will have to be one made very carefully. Promises of certain functionality delivered on a certain date will be looked on with a jaundiced eye, not because I believe the vendors are lying charlatans but because I know that what looks like a "simple matter of programming" often opens the proverbial "can of worms" once the integrations and regression testing begins. The pressure to "tell the market what they want to hear" or have heard from the competition in order to remain a viable force in the market competes with the desire to only deliver exactly what you works right now in any company.

You can, as a consumer, avoid this in our market by buying proven, certified, TSO, stuff. Functionality may seem archaic by comparison to the latest "gee-whiz" and cost three or four times as much. The fact you have the choice is the benefit of the freedoms we enjoy in our market. That the freedoms have some downside and "costs" not always obvious should be expected, IMHO.

Brantel
09-20-2009, 06:08 AM
Another point, and I am not suggesting that you should not hammer suppliers for poor performance, but we have no problems with the A/P dropping out however we do use the G530W and ARINC429. I suspect the problems are serial links with the GX96 products.

We have more issues with teh G530W being so fussy with sattelites and going into DR mode. :cool:

DB

Confirmed bug on most if not all GPS's using the RS232 link. Not just the X96's..........Can't blame this one on the GPS since Dynon's competitors don't seem to have a problem with this one.

SMO
09-20-2009, 01:01 PM
When it is printed and advertised with a Price and a delivery date, you should be pretty much right to go.DB:cool:

I spent a number of years as an IT consultant helping clients select software for their business. Part of the process includes setting selection criteria, weighting it, and subsequently scoring how well the vendor's functionality measures up against the criteria. While it is always interesting/important to know the direction a vendor is planning to take their software, a cardinal rule is to ALWAYS score future releases with a ZERO. If it can't be demonstrated that it works effectively today, then unforseen problems could cause it to never become available.

Break this rule at your own peril. Been there, done that.

It's easy to say the vendors shouldn't make promises for things they ultimately don't deliver, however from the vendors perspective they have the very difficult task of trying to balance telling the market what they are planning versus the probablility of resolving unknown problems in a timely fashion. That they "lean" too far one way or the other when trying to achieve this balance should not come as a surprise to anybody.

breister
09-20-2009, 09:45 PM
Ohh do you?

When it is printed and advertised with a Price and a delivery date, you should be pretty much right to go.

DB:cool:

Guys, I think this point has been made too many times on this forum. Dynon made a mistake, and they have clearly paid for it in lost sales opportunities. It's time to stop the bashing and move on. If you think you can do so much better, there is nothing stopping you from forming a competing company.

It seems to have been simply a case of overoptimism on their part. Which would you rather have them do - do what they did and admit that they made a mistake and won't be able to deliver on a proposed product, or devote all their resources to delivering that product at the cost of becoming unprofitable, uncompetitive and ultimately going out of business? Boy, that would teach THEM!!! Oh, and a special thanks from all their other customers for driving them out of business so there is no one to support our products...

Not that you guys should give up petitioning for them to take it up again, but the bashing is becoming tiresome and I'm thinking it's about time the Mods step in...

MODS - WAKEY WAKEY...

RV10inOz
09-21-2009, 01:00 AM
Hey hang on a minute.

I am the last person to Bash Dynon and you clearly used my post as a reference.

I am partly responsible for the massive uptake of Dynon's in Australia, and they do not really know it. No need to brag any further on that, but its fair to say I will support them all the way.

They produce a great product and always deliver great service etc. In fact they really make most other suppliers look third rate.

I do also support the theory that once the Skyview gets its VNAV functionality sorted, they could and should be able to release that for existing customers. If nothing else to restore some faith in the market place.

I really do not see why the should not come out and say Yes we will, and the price will go up, so be warned..... but at the same time, be honest about it. Some companies take pre orders and deposits, some dont, I see that some folk have had trouble with this in the past, however if some level of comitment was made on both sides I think it would be a good thing.

Yes I will be petitioning and lobbying hard, I just need to get past the apathy of some folk and get the numbers on the board. Problem is talk is cheap. I am prepared to put money where my mouth is.

DB:cool:

breister
09-21-2009, 08:43 AM
I was specifically not intending to single anyone out - I was referring to a trend across several posts and even different threads.

Sorry if you took it that way - just trying to keep things positive. Keep the heat on, but let's keep it nice.

:)

RV10inOz
09-21-2009, 03:03 PM
Thank you.

The last thing I want to do is start that kind of publicity. Its not fair and not accurate. I do however believe through positive action and a comitment to work together we can all achieve great things!

DB:cool:

jeff beckley
09-21-2009, 08:17 PM
I too was not trying to bash Dynon. I just was not too eloquent in my wording.
I understand that business models change for what ever reason. Product availability, lack of sales base, what ever...
What Dynon need to do is to make right for the few customers that were financially effected by the change. The customers that put faith in the promised products that planed and built their panels.
My business is 90% customer service and 10% labor. If I were to enter into an agreement with a customer and for what ever reason I could not fulfill my obligation I HAVE to reconcile with them.
I live in a small community. My reputation would be shot if I blew off just a few customers.
Dynon and other EFIS venders are marketing to a VERY small market. If they do not make it right for the customers that are effected negatively then it will only come back to haunt them.
I am speaking from experience. I beta tested for Blue Mountain Avionics and watched them fall from grace because of false promises. Sure that was an extreme. Dynon is a far far better company.
Sorting things out for the effected customers would be the stand up thing to do and that show of first class customer service would be returned ten fold.

I would have liked to consider Dynon's products for the upgrade I am doing but .........

dynonsupport
09-22-2009, 10:45 AM
Just so everyone is aware, when we announced we were putting the AP76 on hold, we offered ANYONE that had purchased an autopilot a full refund. We can't do much more than that to support our customers when we have to change course or delay a product. Hopefully nobody feels like they're ultimately out anything from Dynon. We do try realy hard to craft our policies to minimize the impact customers feel when we need to change plans. We've been around long enough to see that this industry has a tendency to sting customers along, and in announcing the hold on the AP76, we were making an earnest effort to not to do that to you with a series of perpetual "delays" to the ship date. Anyway, we will still honor that refund promise even though it's been 9 months since we announced the hold on the AP76.

The reality is that basically nobody has taken us up on that promise because getting even the base features of our AP in any other product costs vastly more. We do still expect to deliver the AP76 at some date, and we will tell you right away if that ever changes. We'd tell you now if we thought there was even less than a 50% chance we'll do it. What we can't do is give you a date it will ship. If you need an AP right now with a specific feature that was on the AP76, then unfortunately we are not your choice. Of course, even in this very thread, other vendors are promising future features, so Dynon is in no way alone in trying to give the market a heads up on our future plans so that people can make informed decisions. What we HAVE tried to do is to be upfront about delays and changes of plans, and to basically convey the honest statuses of different projects within the company.

RV10inOz
09-22-2009, 06:01 PM
Great reply Dynon. :)

The reality is, for folk like us, we had a panel built and the AP74 installed knowing the 76 was coming, and prepared to wait and trade up.

Taking a refund was never going to be an option, the cost of doing that would be tens of thousands of dollars in real cash or my man hours. So you can see why I am so keen. I would have gone the option of the TT for RV10 if I had to and known, but because of the great belief in Dynon products, and I still have it, we stuck with the AP74/76 program. Are we unhappy, no! Just keen to get what we expected to get. Will we wait and pay, of course!

We do still expect to deliver the AP76 at some date, and we will tell you right away if that ever changes.

This is at least a positive step forward.

I am keen to come to see you guys, and discuss what it will take, costs, marketing etc..... I am a firm believer in being part of the solution. So count me in!

DB:cool:

Jamie
09-22-2009, 08:47 PM
Taking a refund was never going to be an option, the cost of doing that would be tens of thousands of dollars in real cash or my man hours.

Hyperbole, perhaps?

Why would it cost 10's of thousands of dollars to swap out the AP? Is the Australian exchange rate that bad? :)

I assume you are referring to rebuilding your ENTIRE panel because of one module (the AP76 cutout). I think it you will look you would see that it would not be that difficult to fit the TT RV-10AP module or one of their other "flatpack" modules into that hole. If I remember correctly, the dimensions are very similar. A little creativity (you know, the type us builders are supposed to have) would take care of it.

Swapping out the Dynon AP for a TT -- I did that very thing. It took a total of about 10 hours, me working by myself, including running new TT harnesses. The servos mounts and pushrods are the same so there's no work to do there...just bolt the TT servos in.

I'm not trying to convince you to swap out your Dynon AP for a TT. I'm just wondering where that tens of thousands of dollars is coming from.

jeff beckley
09-22-2009, 09:29 PM
That is a very good offer. I would have killed for an offer like that from Blue mountain.