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Auburntsts
09-10-2009, 09:55 AM
OK,
So I've settled on TruTrak as the AP for my RV-10. However I'm not sure on which model -- RV-10 AP or the DigiFlightIISGV. According to the product info webpage, the only difference in the 2 is the RV-10 AP has altitude select where the Digiflight does not. However, the RV-10 AP also lists for $2000 more. Is there any compelling reason to pay the extra $2K for the RV-10 AP? Would a suitable compromise be to order the RV-10 AP servo's/install kit and the DigiFlight control head?

Thanks,
Todd

the_other_dougreeves
09-10-2009, 10:00 AM
Form factor is also an issue - RV-10 AP is offered as a horizontal head unit only, while the Digiflight II can be had as a 2.25" round or a horizontal unit.

TODR

TX7A
09-10-2009, 10:03 AM
the Digiflight comes either way:

http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/instruments_digiflight_2_VSGV.htm

TX7A
09-10-2009, 10:05 AM
the Digiflight comes either way as doug said
(I got ahead of myself )
http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/instruments_digiflight_2_VSGV.htm

Auburntsts
09-10-2009, 10:05 AM
Yep, didn't list form factor as a difference, but the horizontal version is what I'm planning on so it's a non-issue for me. Are there any other considerations that I might want to take into account?

MTBehnke
09-10-2009, 10:21 AM
Are you planning on an EFIS and if so, what model? The AFS EFIS can control a VSGV to effectively provide altitude select and other features (e.g. ILS approaches from an SL-30 or other nav radio).

Mike S
09-10-2009, 10:27 AM
Mike has it right, you need to consider the rest of the instrumentation in the panel.

I went with the Digiflight II VSGV, after talking to Grand Rapids Technology, as I already had their EFIS units in the plane. GRT says they worked with TruTrack to ensure the compatibility of the two.

Also, I checked with TruTrack, got the exact same response----

Call them, good folks.

Auburntsts
09-10-2009, 11:13 AM
Guys, thanks for the input. Although I have yet to select an EFIS, the 3 brands I'm looking at all work well with the TruTrak line. Sounds like the DigiFlight II is the way to go for my situation.

SMO
09-10-2009, 11:22 AM
Todd, one thing to be aware of is that in order to use the GPS Steering feature (no overshoots of the waypoints) you have to have an output from the GPS that delivers the right signal - most IFR certified GPS units provide this as does the GRT EFIS with ARINC.

pierre smith
09-10-2009, 11:23 AM
...is that the Digiflight II VSVG will fly a coupled ILS approach from a 430W/SL30 if you want. From what I understand, the others won't.

Regards,

TrutrakTech
09-10-2009, 01:20 PM
...is that the Digiflight II VSVG will fly a coupled ILS approach from a 430W/SL30 if you want. From what I understand, the others won't.

Regards,

Hopefully I can offer some useful info here. The VSGV will not fly an ILS, it will fly a GPS (LPV) approach. The DII VSGV has no inputs for analog ILS/LOC/VOR navigation. On the same note, the RV10AP does not have any of that either.

The RV10AP adds the capability to pre-select your altitude, climb/descend to that altitude on a selectable airspeed, and adds the VNAV function. The VNAV lets you setup your own descent/ascent profiles. For example, say you're 30 miles out from your waypoint flying at 9500'. As you cross your waypoint, you want to be down to 3500'. The VNAV feature lets you set that up so that after you have covered 30 miles, you'll be down at 3500' and you didn't have to worry about maintaining a target vertical speed or making sure you reach that target altitude. It will automatically adjust itself according to airspeed.

I hope I've shed some light on the subject. Please let me know if there are any other questions. Thanks!

Auburntsts
09-10-2009, 02:12 PM
Lucas,
I see that the RV-10 AP servos come with an RV-10 specific install kit. If I go with the DigiFlight II, do I need the same install kit? I guess what I'm asking is are the RV-10 AP and DigiFlight servos the same animal? If so, that would greatly simply things and give me more time to think about which control head to get as all I want are the servos right now.

Thanks,
Todd

pierre smith
09-10-2009, 02:30 PM
...for the clarification, Lucas. Can any of your units fly a coupled ILS approach?

Thanks,

Brantel
09-10-2009, 02:35 PM
The Sorcerer and the AP-100 have the analog interfaces and software to follow NAV sources for VOR/LOC/GS.

http://i32.tinypic.com/2ps0kea.jpg

Some EFIS's can manipulate VOR/LOC/GS analog signals and convert them to GPSS and GPSV sentences which the less expensive TT models that support GPS steering can use.

rleffler
09-10-2009, 02:40 PM
Lucas,
I see that the RV-10 AP servos come with an RV-10 specific install kit. If I go with the DigiFlight II, do I need the same install kit? I guess what I'm asking is are the RV-10 AP and DigiFlight servos the same animal? If so, that would greatly simply things and give me more time to think about which control head to get as all I want are the servos right now.

Thanks,
Todd

The servos are a/c specific, so they are the same on the RV-10. However, the harness is different becuase of the different AP heads.

pierre smith
09-11-2009, 05:59 AM
......
Some EFIS's can manipulate VOR/LOC/GS analog signals and convert them to GPSS and GPSV sentences which the less expensive TT models that support GPS steering can use.

Will the GRT HX do this? Reason for asking is because I have one that'll go in my -6 this winter and I'd like that capability.

Thanks,

Geico266
09-11-2009, 06:41 AM
The RV10AP adds the capability to pre-select your altitude, climb/descend to that altitude on a selectable airspeed, and adds the VNAV function.

Altitude preselect is a very nice feature. Once you have it you'll miss it when you don't.

rleffler
09-11-2009, 07:30 AM
Will the GRT HX do this? Reason for asking is because I have one that'll go in my -6 this winter and I'd like that capability.

Thanks,

Yes, The GRT HX can do it. So can some of the other GRT EFIS if configured properly.

I'm sure if you post something to the GRT Yahoo List, you will get many that are flying to validate. (I'm not flying yet) Perhaps Paul Dye, Bob Condrey, or Mike Stewart will add their two cents here, since they both have HXs installed and are flying?

This was a very well discuss subject at the RV-10 HQ at Camp Scholler this year. The only issue that the EFIS is now in the critical path for a sucessful approach. Although, I think most people would agree if the EFIS goes south, they have other issues to contend with.

Martin Sutter
09-11-2009, 08:07 AM
Yes, the GRT can do that. I have dual GRT WS screens (the first version) and driven by my GNS430W the Trutrack Digiflight II VSGV does a beautiful job flying the ILS or the GPS approach including tracking the glide slope, flying the missed approach, the hold and procedure turns. You can also pre select altitude and climb rate or speed. The GRT has to be equipped with the optional ARINC module.

Martin Sutter
building and flying RV's since 1988
EAA Tech Counselor

TrutrakTech
09-11-2009, 10:00 AM
You guys are making it too easy on me! I'm late getting to the game but Brian and rleffler are both right.

SMO
09-11-2009, 11:13 AM
driven by my GNS430W the Trutrack Digiflight II VSGV does a beautiful job flying the ILS or the GPS approach

If you add a 430 into the mix then my understanding is you have a choice of using the 430 to provide instructions to fly the approach, or the GRT (HX, or HS with ARINC), but not both. I think I read somewhere that the Trutrak can be configured to default to the secondary source if it loses the primary source but not sure about that. Lucas, can you confirm?

Bill Dicus
09-11-2009, 12:09 PM
Haven't flown it yet but it's my understanding that the AFS EFIS with ARINC adaptor (which I have) can send output to the IIVSGV so it can fly ILS/VOR/LOC approaches. This seemed an economical way to obtain the capability. Anybody out there flying this combination successfully? Bill

TrutrakTech
09-11-2009, 03:10 PM
If you add a 430 into the mix then my understanding is you have a choice of using the 430 to provide instructions to fly the approach, or the GRT (HX, or HS with ARINC), but not both. I think I read somewhere that the Trutrak can be configured to default to the secondary source if it loses the primary source but not sure about that. Lucas, can you confirm?

You can wire in a switch to change the ARINC input to the AP from an EFIS to a 430/530 if you'd like. This gives you the capability to change to the other if one fails.

I think specifically what you are thinking about concerns the use of a handheld/portable. If you wire in the portable as the RS232 source and the 430 as the ARINC source you would have an instant backup of sorts. If you're flying a flightplan on GPSS from the 430 and it suddenly fails, if you have the same flightplan in the handheld then you simply need to push the MODE button and you will go into GPS Nav to continue your flight plan.

I hope this helps!

breister
09-11-2009, 10:14 PM
Let me add clarification to the above, and point out once again that I think TT "undersells" their product.

The TT Digiflight II VSGV has two inputs. One is Serial, suitable for hand held GPS units (or, I believe, an SL30?). The other is ARINC, suitable for precision GPS approaches or other devices (such as the GRT EFIS) which can generate ARINC steering commands. If, for example, your only navigation devices were a Garmin 430 and a Garmin 496 (no EFIS), I would recommend that you hard-wire the 496 to the Serial input and hard-wire the 430 to the ARINC connections for GPS approach capability. Without any switching, then, if the 430 were to fail you could simply press "MODE" to re-engage the TT following the alternate source (in this case the 496). This is a feature I think TT does a suboptimal job of marketing.

Only the ARINC mode can provide vertical steering (for a coupled precision approach), and only the ARINC mode provides intercept steering (so it won't keep shooting back and forth across the course line in pesky winds when tracking a flight plan).

Both formats offer a "stream" of data; both inputs can be routed through a switch to allow input from multiple sources (but only one at a time). When you move the switch it will take a moment to decode the new stream, and you may need to select MODE again to engage the new source. However, the TT will never "look at" the Serial data if it is receiving legitimate ARINC data, so if you truly wanted to select among multiple inputs of different formats you would need a 3-pole rotary switch (one for the serial line, and two for the ARINC A & B lines). In this scenario you would want to assure that NO ARINC signal is being delivered if, for example, you wanted to force the TT to use course information from a Garmin x96.

The Garmin 430/530 apparently do not output VOR/ILS data on either ARINC nor Serial in a format which the TT understands. This is a pity - it means you cannot even perform a LOC approach coupled unless the signal is processed first through a system such as the GRT EFIS. On the other hand it is becoming less relevant as precision GPS approaches are proliferating while ILS/LOC approaches are being dismantled.

If Garmin had a clue, they would change their ARINC output to fly the data chosen by the pilot (GPS or VOR/LOC). But they don't seem to be very responsive to what the customer wants.

ajudge
09-12-2009, 07:53 AM
So this is a probably a really dumb question, but I am replacing a navaid (so all this fancy stuff is new to me). I understand the differences between the units from the model matrix, so what is "altitude select?" Only the truTrak RV-10 AP and the sorcerer models have that? Is that select and altitude and it will climb on a air/vertial speed profile to pre-determined altitude?

If so, that means that the others only fly on a vertial speed and we have to catch the altitude manually?

Neal@F14
09-12-2009, 09:35 AM
The Garmin 430/530 apparently do not output VOR/ILS data on either ARINC nor Serial in a format which the TT understands. This is a pity - it means you cannot even perform a LOC approach coupled unless the signal is processed first through a system such as the GRT EFIS. On the other hand it is becoming less relevant as precision GPS approaches are proliferating while ILS/LOC approaches are being dismantled.

If Garmin had a clue, they would change their ARINC output to fly the data chosen by the pilot (GPS or VOR/LOC). But they don't seem to be very responsive to what the customer wants.

I thought the Sorcerer model could fly a coupled ILS/LOC approach when driven directly from the ARINC outputs from a Garmin 430. Is this not the case?

rleffler
09-12-2009, 03:01 PM
So this is a probably a really dumb question, but I am replacing a navaid (so all this fancy stuff is new to me). I understand the differences between the units from the model matrix, so what is "altitude select?" Only the truTrak RV-10 AP and the sorcerer models have that? Is that select and altitude and it will climb on a air/vertial speed profile to pre-determined altitude?

If so, that means that the others only fly on a vertial speed and we have to catch the altitude manually?

Sort of..... Think of it more as to where you want to manage the process. The RV-10 and the Sourcerer can manage this process independent of any input from your EFIS. The Digitrak VSGV can appear to have the same capability when driven by an ARNIC attached EFIS (GRT or AFS).

If you want redundacy of this capability, then the RV-10 or Sourcerer is your choice. If you want to save some bucks and have the EFIS manage the altitude process, then you can get by with the Digitrak VSGV.

The EFIS (GRT or AFS) is capable of converting the analog approaches (ILS/LOC) and feeding the Digitrak VSGV as well. I believe only the AP-100 and the Sourcerer can support these natively.

Brantel
09-12-2009, 06:06 PM
I thought the Sorcerer model could fly a coupled ILS/LOC approach when driven directly from the ARINC outputs from a Garmin 430. Is this not the case?

Not on the ARINC outputs but on the Analog Outputs of the 430 instead.....Different technology. Same outputs that drive an analog HSI or CDI also drive the Sorcerer's VOR/LOC/GS inputs.

Brantel
09-12-2009, 06:08 PM
I believe only the AP-10 and the Sourcerer can support these natively.

Only the AP-100 and Sorcerer not the AP-10...

TrutrakTech
09-14-2009, 08:00 AM
Everyone is spot on again! Maybe I should be afraid of being replaced! :)

N999BT
09-14-2009, 02:48 PM
Haven't flown it yet but it's my understanding that the AFS EFIS with ARINC adaptor (which I have) can send output to the IIVSGV so it can fly ILS/VOR/LOC approaches. This seemed an economical way to obtain the capability. Anybody out there flying this combination successfully? Bill

I have an SL-30 Navcom connected to the AFS, an Airinc adapter, and the Digiflight II VSGV. ILS, VOR, LOC approaches work fine. I usually use the the AP when practicing, but when I do it for real, I haven't been able to just trust the electrons. Plus I like to fly them by hand.

dynonsupport
09-14-2009, 04:51 PM
The Garmin 430/530 apparently do not output VOR/ILS data on either ARINC nor Serial in a format which the TT understands. This is a pity - it means you cannot even perform a LOC approach coupled unless the signal is processed first through a system such as the GRT EFIS.

The Garmin 430 absolutely outputs VOR and ILS data in ARINC-429 format. The SL-30 does it in serial. If an AP manufacturer wants to fly a VOR or ILS, all the data they need is already there, and in fully published formats. ARINC or Serial is the only connection we (Dynon) need to fly a VOR or ILS. The limitation is not a Garmin or hardware limitation.

RV10inOz
09-14-2009, 08:40 PM
And from our 530W it flies it very well indeed :)

Brantel
09-15-2009, 06:15 AM
The Garmin 430 absolutely outputs VOR and ILS data in ARINC-429 format. The SL-30 does it in serial. If an AP manufacturer wants to fly a VOR or ILS, all the data they need is already there, and in fully published formats. ARINC or Serial is the only connection we (Dynon) need to fly a VOR or ILS. The limitation is not a Garmin or hardware limitation.

Yeah but then they can't charge you for the outdated and expensive analog interfaces and the premium for the extra programing.

Now Dynon on the other hand needs to get off their duff and use this to their advantage in the AP76 for the thousands of "Current Generation" products out there in the field!

"ARINC or Serial is the only connection we (Dynon) need to fly a VOR or ILS" If only you had the AP76 to make good on this statement (disregarding the SL-30)

Rick S.
09-15-2009, 07:16 AM
Todd,

Being an owner of the RV-10 AP, GNS 480 and an SL-30 If I had to do it all over I would have climbed all over the Sorcerer if only to take advantage of the added features and the features of both Nav/Comm's. That said, I found a great deal on my RV-10 AP, which is why I bought it, and it ROCKS!!! Now if I was energetic enough to yank my panel to install the ARNIC adapter on my AFS 3500 I could control it from the EFIS, currently I use the 480 to feed the AP. Now that is a good thing because the guys I know that have 480's in their certificated mo'chines understand it's capability and know how to use that capability :p drool over the Trutrack's capability....and PRICE :D. If you decide to go with the RV-10 AP.....If at all possible dig a little deeper and go one more step up...you won't be disappointed.

KPmarc
09-15-2009, 08:59 AM
To clarify on the 430 Arinc/analog discussion. It's my understanding that the straight 430 does not output VOR/LOC/ILS onto any digital stream; analog only. But the 430W does have the Arinc stream containing the VOR/LOC/ILS data, and a separate Arinc GPS stream.

mburch
09-15-2009, 09:42 AM
To clarify on the 430 Arinc/analog discussion. It's my understanding that the straight 430 does not output VOR/LOC/ILS onto any digital stream; analog only. But the 430W does have the Arinc stream containing the VOR/LOC/ILS data, and a separate Arinc GPS stream.

Not quite sure that's true... both the WAAS and non-WAAS 4xx/5xx units on my desk will happily output VOR/LOC/ILS data via ARINC 429! :)

cheers,
mcb

KPmarc
09-15-2009, 09:45 AM
I stand corrected. My info came from a fairly famous avionics shop, who must also stand corrected!

Brantel
09-15-2009, 09:52 AM
Shhhh.. TT does not want anyone to know that it would just take some software changes to make all their ARINC enabled AP's talk to the Nav side of the 430/530/430W/530W....Keep that quiet! :p

breister
09-15-2009, 10:10 AM
The Garmin 430 absolutely outputs VOR and ILS data in ARINC-429 format. The SL-30 does it in serial. If an AP manufacturer wants to fly a VOR or ILS, all the data they need is already there, and in fully published formats. ARINC or Serial is the only connection we (Dynon) need to fly a VOR or ILS. The limitation is not a Garmin or hardware limitation.

The data may be there, but the TT does not know how to "read" it - thus my comment "...in a format which the TT understands."

I rather suspect that due to competition from vendors such as yourselves they will rectify that in the future. When they do, I would be grateful if they offer it as an upgrade for my Digiflight II VSGV. I should then be able to install a switch to select between GPS and VOR/LOC from my GNS 480, since my Dynon EFIS does not provide the nifty interpreter feature to drive my existing autopilot the way other vendors do...

:p

Competition is a wonderful thing!

TrutrakTech
09-15-2009, 10:42 AM
The data may be there, but the TT does not know how to "read" it - thus my comment "...in a format which the TT understands."

I rather suspect that due to competition from vendors such as yourselves they will rectify that in the future. When they do, I would be grateful if they offer it as an upgrade for my Digiflight II VSGV. I should then be able to install a switch to select between GPS and VOR/LOC from my GNS 480, since my Dynon EFIS does not provide the nifty interpreter feature to drive my existing autopilot the way other vendors do...

:p

Competition is a wonderful thing!

Ask, and ye shall receive. We are finalizing the casing design and waiting on the boards for our ARINC module. This will allow our EFIS to display the VOR/LOC from the 430. It will also allow the EFIS AP IV to use that info for navigation, glideslope, etc. As for other products receiving this capability....who knows. ;)

The module should be available in 2-3 weeks and will cost between $200-$250. Thanks all!

SMO
09-15-2009, 11:27 AM
It will also allow the EFIS AP IV to use that info for navigation, glideslope, etc.

Great news!!! As an EFIS AP IV owner with a 430W I look forward to the update!

breister
09-16-2009, 01:37 PM
Ask, and ye shall receive. We are finalizing the casing design and waiting on the boards for our ARINC module. This will allow our EFIS to display the VOR/LOC from the 430. It will also allow the EFIS AP IV to use that info for navigation, glideslope, etc. As for other products receiving this capability....who knows. ;)

The module should be available in 2-3 weeks and will cost between $200-$250. Thanks all!

EDIT - disregard if you saw my original post, can't keep the vendors straight in my head...

:o

Are you saying that it will convert the ARINC VOR/ILS/LOC from my GNS 480 and thus allow me to fly a coupled ILS approach?

What else will this do? Will it transition me from a GPS - ILS automatically?

We want more news!!!!

:D

jeff beckley
09-18-2009, 07:47 AM
EDIT - disregard if you saw my original post, can't keep the vendors straight in my head...

:o

Are you saying that it will convert the ARINC VOR/ILS/LOC from my GNS 480 and thus allow me to fly a coupled ILS approach?

What else will this do? Will it transition me from a GPS - ILS automatically?

We want more news!!!!

:D

I have been looking at buying the TT EFIS with IV AP. I only have a miserly 430 non W. From what I have been told even with the new interface TT will not allow for a fully coupled approach. Only localizer. I would still have to hand fly the G/S. Too bad as I really want the ability to fly fully coupled.

breister
09-18-2009, 12:32 PM
I have been looking at buying the TT EFIS with IV AP. I only have a miserly 430 non W. From what I have been told even with the new interface TT will not allow for a fully coupled approach. Only localizer. I would still have to hand fly the G/S. Too bad as I really want the ability to fly fully coupled.

I wouldn't be so quick to form an opinion of that; here is why. LOC/ILS approaches are now outnumbered by GPS/GPSS approaches, and the former are being decomissioned while the latter are growing in number.

With the TT II VSG (no vertical coupling, but vertical speed select) the autopilot can approximate a perfect ILS. Just dial in the course as you intercept the LOC, and make small 1-2 degree corrections for wind as necessary. Once intercepting the glideslope, punch in 500fpm descent. If your trend is low, decrease by 100fpm - reverse that for trending high.

Is that a perfect solution? NO! However, I've tried that in really gusty wind conditions for fun (because the Digiflight will NOT fly the ILS coupled) and it works like a champ - smoother than I can fly it. According to field reports the Dynon does not <YET> have a vertical speed select considered "reliable in chop" (and when did you ever fly an approach in smooth soup?). So that leaves you with NO precision approach capability in the Dynon today (they are working on it, it will come).

Both vendors will improve their solutions - I am a supporter of BOTH Dynon and TT, and not promoting either. But neither does EXACTLY what you want just yet (check out the TT forum, I'm giving them grief about not creating an ARINC converter to make the Digiflight series capable of LOC/ILS). Too, if you choose later to upgrade your 430 to a "W," TT will upgrade the VSG to the VSGV for the difference in cost - giving you fully coupled precision GPS approaches.

Hope that muddies the water for you! Both have their plusses and minuses, and it is good to know EXACTLY what you are buying.

TrutrakTech
09-18-2009, 03:32 PM
I have been looking at buying the TT EFIS with IV AP. I only have a miserly 430 non W. From what I have been told even with the new interface TT will not allow for a fully coupled approach. Only localizer. I would still have to hand fly the G/S. Too bad as I really want the ability to fly fully coupled.

Hi Jeff,

I believe we spoke on the phone earlier today. I think we ended the conversation before I was able to clarify.

The EFIS AP IV WILL be able to fly a coupled approach with the ARINC module from a non-WAAS 430. The software is not available yet for that feature. There could be some small changes to the way it works, but OVERALL it will do it.