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Electroair (Jeff Rose) EI

I

Indiana Larry

Member
I have been running with Electroair system for 300 hours on the right side with slick mag in left. I have the timing pickup for the Electroair in the right Magneto hole. It has been running just fine until 3 days ago. On runup, the EI took a couple of seconds to kick in when I turned off the slick mag. But it did then run the engine. I cycled this several times and it did this strange cutout twice and then operated normal. I flew that day around the field with no problems. But I did not do a mag & EI check when I landed before turning it off after the flight. The next day I looked things over and every fitting is rock tight. The engine starts and runs on the slick mag but will not run on the EI at all now. I've confirmed, it has power coming to it and the plugs are all fine.

I have called Electroair a couple of times and they have not returned my call. I also emailed them without a response. I am beginning to think they do not want to support my system but would prefer I go through Aircraft Spruce or one of the other dealers.

Has anyone got some words of advice for me? Larry -- grounded in Indiana
 
Electroair is a small operation and you may have found a window of time where the handful of people running the business are out of pocket for some reason.

I recommend you keep trying to contact them.
 
A more reliable test

rocketbob said:
Measure the resistance of the magnetic sensor with a DVM, if its open or shorted you need a new one. I think its supposed to measure 40 ohms, and would have to double check mine to verify. If you can't get a hold of Electromotive, you can get it here: http://www.electromotive-inc.com/sensors.html
Click to expand...

Larry,
Bob is correct in using an ohm meter to inspect the magnetic sensors. This style sensor is used extensively in modern automobiles. I have often found defective sensors which would test good with an ohm meter. I found a more reliable test is to use a digital volt meter and set it on it's lowest DC voltage setting. For me, that is a 0 to 2 volt scale. The meter must be capable of reading thousandths of a volt. Connect the leads of the volt meter to the leads coming off the sensor, at the connector. Do this with the connector unplugged. Crank the engine over and watch for a very slight voltage signal (anywhere from .002 to .03 volts) The presence of voltage indicates a functioning sensor. No voltage means the sensor is bad.
It is common for the leads on the magnetic pick up sensor, to break right where they enter the sensor. Most of the time, the insulation is undamaged, so the wire "appears" intact.
Try wiggling the harness while performing the voltage test, to determine if this is the problem. If your sensor is bad and it's the older, 3/8" diameter style, I would suggest upgrading to the 1/2" diameter sensor. The upgrade will require that the mounting hole in the housing, be opened up to 1/2".

Charlie Kuss
 
Pull the plug wires off at the unit. Crank the engine and you should see a spark jump between the post. If not, take out the top plug and repeat the test. If you have a green led and no spark, take the unit out of the mag hole and attach a drill to turn the shaft. If you still don't have a spark, send the unit in for repair. If you do have a spark with the drill, something is making the unit think you do not have at least 100rpms.

You should be able to crank on the mag and the unit work fine. Remember, if you turn the unit off in a mag check, it take a couple of seconds before it will fire when it is turned back on.

If you are stranded, you can call me, (Sam 817-579-5771) and i will try to help.
 
Electroair

Last week while ferrying an RV-8 from Oregon, we had the Electroair fail. We continued on with a borrowed magneto in place of the Electroair.

I left a message with the company and got a return call a few days later(after we got home). The gentleman said to measure resistance between the red and black wires out of the sensor. It should be between 600 and 800 Ohms. Also check for the +5 Volts at the top lug at the electronic box.

The Electroair rep said he would be unavailable for a few days..don't remember the reason.

Good luck,

Mitch Garner
RV-4 flying
 
chaskuss said:
Larry,
Bob is correct in using an ohm meter to inspect the magnetic sensors. This style sensor is used extensively in modern automobiles. I have often found defective sensors which would test good with an ohm meter. I found a more reliable test is to use a digital volt meter and set it on it's lowest DC voltage setting. For me, that is a 0 to 2 volt scale. The meter must be capable of reading thousandths of a volt. Connect the leads of the volt meter to the leads coming off the sensor, at the connector. Do this with the connector unplugged. Crank the engine over and watch for a very slight voltage signal (anywhere from .002 to .03 volts) The presence of voltage indicates a functioning sensor. No voltage means the sensor is bad.
It is common for the leads on the magnetic pick up sensor, to break right where they enter the sensor. Most of the time, the insulation is undamaged, so the wire "appears" intact.
Try wiggling the harness while performing the voltage test, to determine if this is the problem. If your sensor is bad and it's the older, 3/8" diameter style, I would suggest upgrading to the 1/2" diameter sensor. The upgrade will require that the mounting hole in the housing, be opened up to 1/2".

Charlie Kuss
Click to expand...

Actually an even better test would be to use a scopemeter and check for an AC waveform, while running.

I have a friend that had problems with a 1/2" pickup, even after changing the sensor out for a new one. He ended up going back to the 3/8" sensor. With the teeth on the gear being so small, less current is induced with the larger sensor.
 
Spirit

Larry,

Where is you pioneering experimental spirit. I am going all out, dual p-mags!

My comment is purely tongue and cheek, to each his own. I just like gadgets.

Cheers
 
RVG8tor said:
Larry,

Where is you pioneering experimental spirit. I am going all out, dual p-mags!

My comment is purely tongue and cheek, to each his own. I just like gadgets.

Cheers
Click to expand...


My pioneering experimental spirit dimmed when my Light Speed Ignition took my RV-10 out of the air and into an emergency landing situation with two souls on board. Fortunately, I was barley able to make the airport I deverted to. Failure was due to heat soaked control module. Then when I learned the "wires" used in the Light Speed Engineering crank shaft position sensor is "plenum" or" speaker wire" my experimental ignition pioneering spirit "caught the last train for the coast."

When I realized LSE was trying to save $5.00 (or less) in wire cost at the expense of my safety I had to ask myself open question; "What else are they skimping on?"

http://geicodevelopment.com/light_speed_engineering

Yep, to each his own.
 
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Wow, glad it turned our OK

Geico266 said:
My pioneering experimental spirit dimmed when my Light Speed Ignition took my RV-10 out of the air and into an emergency landing situation. Fortunately, I was able to make an airport. When I learned the "wires" used in the Light Speed Engineering crank shaft position sensor is "plenum" or" speaker wire" my experimental ignition pioneering spirit "caught the last train for the coast."

When I realized LSE was trying to save $5.00 (or less) in wire cost at the expense of my safety I had to ask myself opne question; "What else are they skimping on?"

http://geicodevelopment.com/light_speed_engineering

Yep, to each his own.
Click to expand...

At least this makes me glad I did not go with LSE, how long ago was this, I know P-mags have had their growing pains. In fact I had a guy at the Van's tent at SnF frown with I said I was going with the P-mag, he then said do your research. Which is difficult to do, this forum is one of the best resources, the bulk of the comments are positive WRT the P-mag but them maybe the people who have had problems with them don't post. I would share you concern if I found something along the lines you did with your ignition.
 
Lightspeed

To follow up on Larry's advice - I had two runups with failed Lightspeed ignitions and shut down both flights. (Actually three total but the other was resolved after the magic box was returned to me with the explanation that all was fine. Funny, it worked too....) :rolleyes:
The other two were both due to a cheap computer style connector inside the engine compartment from the magic box to the Hall Effect Sensor. Took many hours of sweating and grief to clean up and get going again. When I complained about paying essentialy 10% of the cost of a whole system for a "new and improved" connector that they knew was necessary, they told me to go get a mag and leave them alone! Yo, double Lightspeed Moderator Sam, how 'bout letting this post stand.... :D
Fortunately I had an excellent radio builder who took the cap and unsoldered the cheap ($1.10) connector and resoldered the best available connector that cost $1.95......!
So to answer the question about what else they short take on, I'd say most anything. That $0.85 cost me many hours of sweating grief at a strange airport once and a missed ooportunity to meet a great aviation legend the second time. Hope it hangs in there for a while more, but next time it goes in the trash! :mad:
 
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RVadmirer said:
Hope it hangs in there for a while more, but next time it goes in the trash! :mad:
Click to expand...

As the saying goes; "Once bitten, twice shy."

I might put an electronic ignition on my -3, but I put my family and grand kids in the -10. The extra cost and limited benfit (if any) does not even come close to out weighing the risk. Not even close.

Enough said.
 
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RVG8tor said:
At least this makes me glad I did not go with LSE, how long ago was this, I know P-mags have had their growing pains. In fact I had a guy at the Van's tent at SnF frown with I said I was going with the P-mag, he then said do your research. Which is difficult to do, this forum is one of the best resources, the bulk of the comments are positive WRT the P-mag but them maybe the people who have had problems with them don't post. I would share you concern if I found something along the lines you did with your ignition.
Click to expand...

I understand risking your own life on experimentation, in a single seat airplane.
 
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The Electroair in the RV has been rock-solid, and am a happy customer. I have five of these systems...
 
Man have we killed some coffee with this one!

Geico266 said:
Dual Slick mags.
Click to expand...

Many of my Georgia RV friends have Single LSE/Mag, Single PMag/Mag, Single ElectroAir/Mag, Dual LSE and Dual PMag. I agree with Larry. In this area, safety/reliability and where I fly dictates dual Slicks on everything. As listed below, Mitch had a failure and "continued on with a borrowed magneto". My position has always been that I can land with a bad mag issue and usually get it repaired. I've seen many transients with regular mag ignition issues land at OKZ and in less than an hour be on their way without issue. If any of these problems had involved troubleshooting an experimental ignition system, the repair may have taken days. I further agree with Larry on exposing others to experimental component reliability. Not trying to start a discussion, but my take is a little different. I don't see why we have used electronic ignition, reliably, on cheap cars for years, but cannot have it in GA.

Mitch757 said:
Last week while ferrying an RV-8 from Oregon, we had the Electroair fail. We continued on with a borrowed magneto in place of the Electroair.

I left a message with the company and got a return call a few days later(after we got home). The gentleman said to measure resistance between the red and black wires out of the sensor. It should be between 600 and 800 Ohms. Also check for the +5 Volts at the top lug at the electronic box.

The Electroair rep said he would be unavailable for a few days..don't remember the reason.

Good luck,

Mitch Garner
RV-4 flying
Click to expand...

Its a holiday weekend and they may be away for vacation. Just a guess.

Hope you get your problem resolved soon and don't take any chances. We have already lost two RVs this week. Good luck.
 
Ditto...

Yeah, what Rocket Bob said! I bought one of Jeff Rose's first EI's for my RV4 back in the early 90's before pre-punch, pre-drill and pre-preg. He was and still is an innovative, brilliant Southern Gentleman. All the others including LS copied Jeff in one form or another. Jeff sold the business to some guys up North who continue to upgrade and tweak the setup. It has worked great on both my airplanes for thousands (yes thousands Larry:))of hours. I run a Bendix Mag as the co-conspirator and found the EI increased my cruise efficiency 1GPH on the RV4 and up to 3GPH at altitude in the Rocket at 32 degrees or greater advance(the mag of course is welded at 25BTC). Installed and maintained properly, they are far superior to Magnetos.
My Rocket's EI has been flawless. On both aircraft I use Denso L14U auto spark plugs and Accel auto wires, a must I found over the modified harness/aircraft plug setup.

My Dos Centavos.
Smokey
HR2

PS: If you like Dual Magneto redundancy, look at the G3i system, similar to the Unison certified system but much cheaper.
http://www.g3ignition.com/
 
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EI

just bought an old-style gold ElectroAir.
I expect the installation will be challenging, but do-able.
...but swapping A Slick for Bendix was not plug 'n play either!
I expect that in a room full of 500 -hour pilots, you will get quite a few hands when you ask who has had a mag problem.
I fully agree that keeping one mag should garner the advantages of their vintage and commonality.
...and adding one experimental EI will gain the advantages and disadvantages of their strengths and weaknesses, however we try to minimize them.

Mike at Electroair has so far given excellent support on ensuring my old system tests as functional before installation.
 
Electoair - Jeff Rose

For troubles, Jeff Rose was always willing to help me.

Try Jeff at: 423-622-8825

Barney in Memphis
 
It took about 3 weeks from problem start to problem resolution. I worked with Mike on the phone at Electroair for 3-4 days doing tests to try and determine what part was failing. UPS'ed the entire unit to Mike and after another week he determined the mag hole timing sensor was the problem. It was overhauled and I have completed tests after reinstallation and I am now happy with my EI. The total cost with shipping and all was about $175.

Thank you everyone who made suggestions on my problem. This forum is one of the nice things about flying an RV.

Larry in Indiana with RV7 (300+ hours)
 
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