RV8 Pattern Speeds ???

A friend has asked me if I could get some feedback on the speeds people use in the pattern with the RV8(A)s. I figure there is not better place to get that feedback than here.

So (if you RV8'ers out there would be so kind) here goes:

What speeds do you normally use ... ?

1. Entering the pattern
2. Downwind
3. Base
4. Final
5. "Over the fence"
6 Touchdown

Thanks for any replies

James

Oh, and do you normally 3-point it or wheel land it in???

RV pattern speeds

jclark said:

What speeds do you normally use ... ?

1. Entering the pattern
2. Downwind
3. Base
4. Final
5. "Over the fence"
6 Touchdown

Thanks for any replies

James

Oh, and do you normally 3-point it or wheel land it in???

Click to expand...

Well this is based on flying RV-4,RV-6 and RV-7, but all RVs are simular.

Entering:
1. Pattern (the 45) slowing to 100-120 mph / 0 FLAPS
2. Downwind 100-120 mph / 0 FLAPS
(Check: boost pump on/tank fullest, prop fwd, belts, if you have not already)
2a. Before turning base, slow to below 100 mph / 1/3-1/2 FLAPS (1)
3. Base 85-90 mph, GUMPS (2), add 2/3rd FLAPS or as needed
4. Final 80 - 85 mph (no slower than 75 mph), add 2/3 to full FLAPS
5. "Over the fence" Stable approach, on speed, full FLAPS, on aim point (3)
6 Touchdown, slowly reduce power and flare, do NOT stall fly it on (4)
7 Landing attitude 3-pt? No (5)

Notes:
(1) Before starting to decend turning base, you need some flaps. If clean and decending it is hard to get under 100 mph flap extension speed, Vfe. Just make sure you have some flaps before starting down.

(2) Checklist: Gas (tank/pump), Undercarriage (down and welded), Mixture (rich), Prop (fwd/hi rpm), and Safety (belts, lights, LOOK for traffic always)

(3) AIM POINT: Remember you should have an aim point (on the runway or landing area) picked out. That aim point should not move up or down relative to a fixed sight point on your windscreen. If the aim point goes down from your windscreen sight point you are over shooting. IF the aim point moves up on the windscreen you are undershooting. This is very important in making good consistent landings. On final, control speed with power and configuration (flaps). You should only have to make small pitch correction and you should be trimmed for hands off.

(4) At what speed? I don't look at this point and it does not matter, but it will be around 50's (CAS). Wheel landings are another story. I never found a need to wheel-it-on, but it requires a little extra speed and power (very little) and a delicate touch on the stick.

(5)Three point or not is not important. You get what you get, and you will know when the landing is right. Normal landings are on the mains first tail low. In fact a full stall landing will result in the tail wheel hitting first. RV tail draggers are best landed with a little speed just above stall for control, with emphasis on a LITTLE speed above stall. The point is RVs are flown-on more than Plopped-on in a full stall. You will see, when you land you will be near a 3-point but the mains will touch down first. You can force a 3-pt with practice but there is no advantage to a 3-pt or almost 3-pt. What ever you do not STALL and drop in, fly it on just above stall. If you try to STALL it on the tail wheel will slam down first than the mains, not desirable. If you feel you are hanging there, pitch attitude is past a 3-pt attitude and you are still flying, add some power, lower the nose or go around. For some reason a common RV landing accident is flaring too high or too early, stalling many feet above the runway. It is not a C-152. You need to fly it down low over the runway and level it off close to the deck before chopping the power. With a C/S prop speed will decay faster at idle. Normal approaches are made with partial power. With practice you can land with min float and close to the aim point. Once you get good at normal landings (with power), practice power off landings. The RV will sink if you get it too slow. This is good to do once and while to stay current for forced landings. The old saying is it has an engine because it needs it. The RV is fast but is not a glider. The Ratio is a bit of a mystery, with reports from 6 thru 9 to one. You can count on say at least 1 kt-mile for every 1000 feet altitude with no winds.

POWER: By proper planning you should set the appropriate power. If you have C/S prop speed control is a little easier because at slow speed and high RPM the prop acts like a drag brake. Fixed props have a little more thrust at idle. You don't mention fixed or c/s prop, so you will have to work out the power setting you need for each phase of flight. Also you have to plan ahead. If you are doing say 180 mph, to get to 100-120 in level flight may take a mile or more, so plan ahead and pull the power back early. I am also not into chopping power. Power reduction should be in gradual stepped reductions to landing, where you are only at idle upon landing. Occasionally you have to chop to idle in the pattern, especially with fixed pitch props but try not to jockey the throttle back and forth.

George

jclark said:

What speeds do you normally use ... ?

1. Entering the pattern
2. Downwind
3. Base
4. Final
5. "Over the fence"
6 Touchdown

Thanks for any replies

James

Oh, and do you normally 3-point it or wheel land it in???

Click to expand...

RV-6A (but 4, 6 7 & 8 are similar), fixed pitch, empty pattern:
1. I enter at cruise speed at pattern alt & shut the throttle at the upwind end of the runway.
2. Slowing down to 100 mph, pull 1 stage of flap & start turning, my aim is not to go too far down wind.
3. Aiming for 80 - 85 mph, usually in a gentle turn
4. 80 - 85 mph, min 75mph if light, pretty much always use full flap to get a reasonable rate of descent (fixed pitch prop).
5. min 75mph, preferably 80.
6. No idea, looking down the runway.

Pattern busy - similar speeds to George - typically 120 mph.

During my transition training I was taught 90 mph for base & final with a c/s prop, but I have found 80-85 mph to be better. With a fixed pitch prop you have to plan ahead to lose altitude & speed to join the pattern. Use these numbers as a guide, fly a lot of patterns, and figure what works in your airplane.

Pete

Be aware of possible airspeed system errors

When you are reading these posts, be aware that each RV has its own unique airspeed system errors. Errors may be due to ASI instrument errors (mine has up to a 3 kt error, but I've heard of ones with over 10 kt errors), pitot or static system leaks and static port position error. Many builders get creative with the static ports, by using a flush mounted port, or one on a pitot tube, and this can affect the static system error.

Two RVs flying the exact same calibrated airspeed may have very different indicated airspeeds.

Bottom line - be very wary about lowering your final approach speed just because other RVers say the lower speed works well for them. They may have a very different airspeed system error than you do.

2+2=? Don't bet your rivets on it.

Kevin Horton said:

When you are reading these posts,.......................... be very wary about lowering your final approach speed just because other RVers say the lower speed works well for them. They may have a very different airspeed system error than you do.

Click to expand...

Kevin,
There is much wisdom in your words. Even though I had the static system checked out by a professional with the proper equipment, I'd have to say one of the biggest concerns I had on Darla's maiden flight was the accuracy of the airspeed indicator. Because of that unknown quantity, I tended to land much faster than required. I did not feel confident about the airspeed readings until subsequent flights (when I programmed the AOA) by stalling the airplane and noting the INDICATED speed at which it broke, with and without flaps. After that, I started breathing easier...and coming over the threshold much slower. This is truly a situation in which YMMV.

Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla"

Know Thy plane

Kevin Horton said:

When you are reading these posts, be aware that each RV has its own unique airspeed system errors. Errors may be due to ASI instrument errors (mine has up to a 3 kt error, but I've heard of ones with over 10 kt errors.

Click to expand...

Very true, know thy pitot static errors, but 10 kts

All airspeeds are IAS, corrected for error or CAS, calabrated airspeed. Kevin advice is well taken, however even with a few MPH error you will not fall out of the sky (unless you are the 10kt error guy ).

The stall speed at gross of most 2 seat RV's are just under 60 mph (CAS) at gross (low 50's for the RV-9). Even if you are flying at 80 mph you have 20 mph margin stall. In other words the 1.3 time stall speed is about 75 MPH. If you want to fly 1.4 or 1.5 times stall for some margin early on, nothing wrong with that. However pick a speed and stick with it. Even if the numbers are off a little, fly the numbers.

That is biggest challenge with new RV pilots, speed control. It is a clean plane and the flaps are not the barn doors found on some factory planes.

So what I get from this Kevin is when flying a new RV add a few MPH on short final and into the flare for the wife, kids and the dog, until you can verify the calabration. Of course GPS ground speed can give you an idea of gross error, knowing the winds. Also, when flying a new RV the first order of business is verifying the accuracy of the airspeed indicator.

Slow flight practice is one of the most important skill in flying the RV in the pattern, of course at a safe altitude. So if at all possible, if you are new to RV's, you should get some practice in a RV to feel what slow flight and stalls feel like before first flight. Even if the A/S is off, your seat-O-pants should tell you are near stall.

George CFI RV-4, -6, -7

Let's seee....

....Decelerate through Mach 1.0 as you cross over mid-field at about 50K ft, hit a high-key point on a continuous downwind-base-final circle (still decelerating) at about 40Kft. Roll out on the final approach at about 15 kft doing 295 knots and hold that down a 19 degree Glideslope to 3Kft, where you pull a 1.5G pre-flare manuever to settle into a 1.5 degree final approach. Cross the fence at about 240, gently flare to a touchdown at 205 (195 if you're light), and hit the drag chute.....

Oh, wait a minute, that's my OTHER airplane... We call it a very heavy glider....

For the RV? I'm still trying to figure out how to land it consistantly, so pay attention to what the other guys said - especially Kevin's cautions on ASI accuracy - don't want to fall out of the sky on final because you're going slower than you think!

Paul

gmcjetpilot said:

Very true, know thy pitot static errors, but 10 kts

Click to expand...

ASIs with 10 kt errors are obviously not serviceable. But I've seen a post on the RV list from someone who had a flying RV, but was a bit suspicious of his airspeed accuracy. He had the ASI instrument error checked, and it was greater than 10 kt. I've also got a copy of a post from someone who bought a new ASI from Van's and found it had an 8 kt instrument error.

George, thanks for such a detailed response!!

I fly a 6 and felt the numbers would basically be the same as well but agreed to ask just in case.

Your commentary is very useful as well.

Again thanks.

James

gmcjetpilot said:

Well this is based on flying RV-4,RV-6 and RV-7, but all RVs are simular.

Entering:
1. Pattern (the 45) slowing to 100-120 mph / 0 FLAPS
2. Downwind 100-120 mph / 0 FLAPS
(Check: boost pump on/tank fullest, prop fwd, belts, if you have not already)
2a. Before turning base, slow to below 100 mph / 1/3-1/2 FLAPS (1)
3. Base 85-90 mph, GUMPS (2), add 2/3rd FLAPS or as needed
4. Final 80 - 85 mph (no slower than 75 mph), add 2/3 to full FLAPS
5. "Over the fence" Stable approach, on speed, full FLAPS, on aim point (3)
6 Touchdown, slowly reduce power and flare, do NOT stall fly it on (4)
7 Landing attitude 3-pt? No (5)

Notes:
(1) Before starting to decend turning base, you need some flaps. If clean and decending it is hard to get under 100 mph flap extension speed, Vfe. Just make sure you have some flaps before starting down.

(2) Checklist: Gas (tank/pump), Undercarriage (down and welded), Mixture (rich), Prop (fwd/hi rpm), and Safety (belts, lights, LOOK for traffic always)

(3) AIM POINT: Remember you should have an aim point (on the runway or landing area) picked out. That aim point should not move up or down relative to a fixed sight point on your windscreen. If the aim point goes down from your windscreen sight point you are over shooting. IF the aim point moves up on the windscreen you are undershooting. This is very important in making good consistent landings. On final, control speed with power and configuration (flaps). You should only have to make small pitch correction and you should be trimmed for hands off.

(4) At what speed? I don't look at this point and it does not matter, but it will be around 50's (CAS). Wheel landings are another story. I never found a need to wheel-it-on, but it requires a little extra speed and power (very little) and a delicate touch on the stick.

(5)Three point or not is not important. You get what you get, and you will know when the landing is right. Normal landings are on the mains first tail low. In fact a full stall landing will result in the tail wheel hitting first. RV tail draggers are best landed with a little speed just above stall for control, with emphasis on a LITTLE speed above stall. The point is RVs are flown-on more than Plopped-on in a full stall. You will see, when you land you will be near a 3-point but the mains will touch down first. You can force a 3-pt with practice but there is no advantage to a 3-pt or almost 3-pt. What ever you do not STALL and drop in, fly it on just above stall. If you try to STALL it on the tail wheel will slam down first than the mains, not desirable. If you feel you are hanging there, pitch attitude is past a 3-pt attitude and you are still flying, add some power, lower the nose or go around. For some reason a common RV landing accident is flaring too high or too early, stalling many feet above the runway. It is not a C-152. You need to fly it down low over the runway and level it off close to the deck before chopping the power. With a C/S prop speed will decay faster at idle. Normal approaches are made with partial power. With practice you can land with min float and close to the aim point. Once you get good at normal landings (with power), practice power off landings. The RV will sink if you get it too slow. This is good to do once and while to stay current for forced landings. The old saying is it has an engine because it needs it. The RV is fast but is not a glider. The Ratio is a bit of a mystery, with reports from 6 thru 9 to one. You can count on say at least 1 kt-mile for every 1000 feet altitude with no winds.

POWER: By proper planning you should set the appropriate power. If you have C/S prop speed control is a little easier because at slow speed and high RPM the prop acts like a drag brake. Fixed props have a little more thrust at idle. You don't mention fixed or c/s prop, so you will have to work out the power setting you need for each phase of flight. Also you have to plan ahead. If you are doing say 180 mph, to get to 100-120 in level flight may take a mile or more, so plan ahead and pull the power back early. I am also not into chopping power. Power reduction should be in gradual stepped reductions to landing, where you are only at idle upon landing. Occasionally you have to chop to idle in the pattern, especially with fixed pitch props but try not to jockey the throttle back and forth.

George

Click to expand...