Flying in Icing conditions

Hey All
The other day we asked yourselves what happened to the dash 8 that went down in Buffalo. Here is an excellent video/demonstration that shows what very well could have happened.

Either way, it gives us a good review of what to look for if flying in icing conditions.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946

the other day I was doing pattern work (control tower) and than after about 3 touches I noticed ice on the windshield. I landed right away and than at the hangar I found all over the airplane at least 1/8 inch of ice over all leading edges, prop, wings, landing gear. Not something to play with.

Conditions for icing?

Steve,

What were the atmospheric conditions when you experienced the airframe icing? Temp? Humidity? Fog/mist/rain/snow? Overcast or sunny? Did you notice any difference in the feel of your RV?

I'm a fair weather flyer, but wonder if my definition of fair weather could get me into trouble.

Thanks

Jkkinz said:

Hey All
The other day we asked yourselves what happened to the dash 8 that went down in Buffalo. Here is an excellent video/demonstration that shows what very well could have happened.

Either way, it gives us a good review of what to look for if flying in icing conditions.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946

Click to expand...

Boy did I ever learn a lesson from that video. I was never taught to pull back the yoke with a tail plane stall. I was always told to leave the flaps up and land fast.

Very good video, thanks for posting it.

Stay out of clouds above the freezing level

Virtually every time I am in clouds above the freezing level I can expect ice to form on the leading edges. I try very hard to avoid that. If I start accumulating ice I take the best action I can think of to get out of that situation. If there is any possibility of freezing rain I keep the airplane on the ground and preferably in the hangar. If I have ice on the plane when it comes time to land I try to keep flying with the same configuration as much as possible - keep the speed up and don't put down the flaps. I don't try to get any more scientific than that. It has worked so far but I try harder to avoid it the longer I fly.

Bob Axsom

I'll admit it - Ice scares me more than Thunderstorms - and they scare the HECK out of me! I'll cancel a flight if there is any chance of ice in the clouds and I have to fly in the clouds - that's just a limitation of the aircraft we are able to afford to fly. At least you can see convective activity on radar and understand where the edges are going to be. Knowing where the ice is and isn't is nowhere near as sure.

Nope, not going to play in it - no way!

Paul

I won't fly in conditions that even remotely could cause ice. No flight is worth it.

Jkkinz said:

Hey All
The other day we asked yourselves what happened to the dash 8 that went down in Buffalo. Here is an excellent video/demonstration that shows what very well could have happened.

Either way, it gives us a good review of what to look for if flying in icing conditions.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946

Click to expand...

It certainly appears like ice may at least be some factor, and Horiz. stab. icing is a possibility, but the NTSB has now released info that at the moment of leaving controlled flight, the airplane pitched nose up 30 degrees and then made a heading reversal of 180 deg (something similar to a wing over I would imagine). The pitch up is opposite to what would be expected (as also detailed in the video) but it does seem to be similar because the investigators also said it appeared the flaps were being deployed when the airplane departed from controlled flight. The flaps apparently were only deployed to between 5-10 deg., not the normal first position of 15 deg.

Reasonable solution

We have designed a reasonable solution for ice detection. It's called the Wingman Ice Buddy. Email me for details... Easy install and priced right!

-d-

Maybe a spin

At a guess..One wing stalls and drags the plane round..Ugly.

I'm with you guys on ice..I have built up about 3/8ths of rime on the leading edges and it flew and handled just fine, but that was in contolled conditions..i.e plenty of room between the FL and the ground.

But planning a flight over the rocks at close to the FL at the MEA..Nope, I won't do it.

Fly safe..

Frank

you mean like a small camera pointed at the tail section?

personally if I was flying a -8, I would want to see the ice, so a camera would be nice. Of course you have the certified hocky that would probably stop such a thing.

The thing about ice is you are a test pilot when it starts to accumulate. You can see the ice forming but you can't tell for sure how much is on the entire airframe and to what degree the airflow is being inhibited. At the same time you are losing lift the airplane is getting heavier. Stall speeds will change in icing.
There is a running battle these days about the use of "boots." For years the conventional wisdom was to wait until the ice formed over the boot before deploying the boot. This was to prevent the ice from taking the shape of the "expanded" boot. Now the boots are greatly improved and the new conventional wisdom is to deploy the boots at the first sign of ice. The truth depends on who you talk to.
Tail plane ice is scary stuff.

The NASA research in 1997 and production of the video in 1998 is most impressive. I wonder how many turbo prop pilots have seen it and if it is part of safety training at airlines that operate such equipment and at Flight Safety with recurrent training for corporate pilots? If it isn't, it sure should be.

The RV, in context with the subject, is not suitable for flight in any icing conditions, the definition of icing being visible moisture and a freezing temperature. It appears anyone who has seen the video got the message - if it wasn't already on the list of things not to do with an RV.

Thanks for posting the link. I had not seen it nor was aware of the research behind it.

vernh59 said:

There is a running battle these days about the use of "boots." For years the conventional wisdom was to wait until the ice formed over the boot before deploying the boot. This was to prevent the ice from taking the shape of the "expanded" boot. Now the boots are greatly improved and the new conventional wisdom is to deploy the boots at the first sign of ice. The truth depends on who you talk to.
Tail plane ice is scary stuff.

Click to expand...

The interesting thing is that NASA and the NTSB are pushing really hard to get pilots to pop the boots at the first sign of ice accumulation. They acknowledge that new boot technology prevents ice bridging. They don't take into account that there are a great many airplanes out there that are flying with "older style" boots.

As a B1900 FO, I ascribe to the conventional wisdom that the ice needs to build prior to popping the boots. Ice bridging is very real, and I have seen it.

I did have the opportunity to watch the NASA video at my previous job flying Beechjets, and again at my current job flying the Mighty Beech. It's a GREAT video!

Anti-Icing on an RV?

This thread did get me thinking about the possibilities of modifying the leading edges of the wings and tail to make ice-resistant.

I would think that leading edges that would be electrically heated would probably be the best. I would think the fuel tank would have to be modified in such a way so that the fuel wouldn't come in contact with the hot metal. I suppose you could use boots, but that would just look silly.

Oh well, just thinking...

David-aviator said:

The NASA research in 1997 and production of the video in 1998 is most impressive. I wonder how many turbo prop pilots have seen it and if it is part of safety training at airlines that operate such equipment and at Flight Safety with recurrent training for corporate pilots? If it isn't, it sure should be.

Click to expand...

I know this video is widely used in training both intial and recurrent.

Yesterday........

.....a friend flew down to learn wheel landings in his -6. He flies right seat in a 777 for Delta and left seat in the 737's. I asked him about in-flight ice detection and what he did about it. He said that they don't do anything in the 777...it's automatic when their ice detectors detect ice...the leading edges and especially the engine intake leading edges are heated.

All of us need OAT gauges in our RV's and absolutely stay away from icing conditions. I have a gut feeling that rime ice accumulation in one of these short wing RV's would get ugly quickly....don't even think of going there IMO..

Regards,



Regards,

THERMA WING

Well here is a shameless plug for the company I work for. I have the fortune to work for a company at the leading edge(funny I know) of deicing technology. www.kellyaerospace.com Thermal systems. We are currently STC'd for Columbia(Cessna) 300,350,400 aircraft, and have a stc for SR-22 pending completion of test flights.
Our system is a all electric thermal deicing system with heaters that are "stuck" on the leading edge of the wing. You will need a really good source of energy, and we have a alternator that will produce 7500watts! The Alternator is dedicated to the Thermawing system only as it regulates itself to as much as 80 VDC. Definately not what you want on your aircraft buss.
We have an affiliate out in Redmond Oregon, RDD www.rddent.com who specializes in integration of our Stc'd systems to experimental aircraft. They are currently working on putting a system on a RV-10 so there is hope for the rest out there if you are so inclined.
I have personally flown behind our system and can attest it is a great thing. Im not a sales guy so this isnt a sales pitch, I am just passionate about my hobby and my job.
If this is something you are interested in by all means contact RDD and tell them I sent you.
The fuel tank will not be a problem as our heater is put on over the leading edge and is a composite lay up of materials that isolate it from the wing itself.
The experimental world is so much fun and if you want to do it, it can be done.
That all said all deicing systems have short comings and there is virtually no way to protect in all possible situations however, our system is a great "get out of jail free" solution for those of us who live where a good part of the year there are clouds that "may" contain icing. Typically we have a layer of clouds around here that have some ice but only go up to 6K or so.
Id be happy to answer any questions, [email protected]

I agree. Just stay far away from any conditions remotely likely to cause ice. No trip is that important. Lose a vacation day. Get yelled at by the wife. Learn to say no to flying on iffy days.

Stay alive.

Please Read Robert Buck's Weather Flying Chapter 13

Please Read Robert Buck's "Weather Flying" Chapter 13 "Ice and Flying It" if you want to get some straight talk on the subject. If you fly IFR in cold weather long enough you are going to encounter icing. It is good to have some input to help deal with the situation and this is my favorite source.

Bob Axsom

Ice for all to see

I took this still from a video clip that was shot by a neighbor in Buffalo, NY and posted on you tube. Note the ice still on the elevator boot even after experiencing an explosion and undetermined number minutes to the heat of the fire.

OAT and icing

I have only 100 hours of private time, 75 of it in RV's, 65 in my new RV-4. So, I am all ears when it comes to RV's and icing.

Having flown tactical jets in the Navy for 20 years, and instructing on two tours, I am a zealot about staying ahead of icing. The advice of not going near it is certainly solid. However, for those of us that might find ourselves nearing icing conditions I'd like to have some numbers to go by that would help me stay ahead of it, and tactically avoid it. A "completely avoid any chance of icing" mentality would be too conservative for how I intend to fly, and would drastically reduce my flexibility. Again, I do not take icing lightly. But, being the adventurous sort, I am willing to push the envelope a little farther than some others. I want to be able to predict icing before it is seen visually, or sensed by a sensor, and subsequently get out of harm's way.

In the Hornet, in visible moisture, staying away from minus 5 degrees Celcius (C) to +5 degrees C is the key. If in the landing configuration, the recommendation is to have at least +10 degrees C. Comments about RV flaps in earlier posts likely insinuate that icing is more prevalent with flaps down, which in the Hornet, after expensive industry testing, proves to be the case.

One fella told me recently that I should be very reluctant to be flying in visible moisture if the OAT is minus 2 C to +2 C. Anything less or more than that he thought would not be a factor.

Anyone have any data points regarding OATs and icing?

TT113 said:

I have only 100 hours of private time, 75 of it in RV's, 65 in my new RV-4. So, I am all ears when it comes to RV's and icing.

Having flown tactical jets in the Navy for 20 years, and instructing on two tours, I am a zealot about staying ahead of icing. The advice of not going near it is certainly solid. However, for those of us that might find ourselves nearing icing conditions I'd like to have some numbers to go by that would help me stay ahead of it, and tactically avoid it. A "completely avoid any chance of icing" mentality would be too conservative for how I intend to fly, and would drastically reduce my flexibility. Again, I do not take icing lightly. But, being the adventurous sort, I am willing to push the envelope a little farther than some others. I want to be able to predict icing before it is seen visually, or sensed by a sensor, and subsequently get out of harm's way.

In the Hornet, in visible moisture, staying away from minus 5 degrees Celcius (C) to +5 degrees C is the key. If in the landing configuration, the recommendation is to have at least +10 degrees C. Comments about RV flaps in earlier posts likely insinuate that icing is more prevalent with flaps down, which in the Hornet, after expensive industry testing, proves to be the case.

One fella told me recently that I should be very reluctant to be flying in visible moisture if the OAT is minus 2 C to +2 C. Anything less or more than that he thought would not be a factor.

Anyone have any data points regarding OATs and icing?

Click to expand...

Tom (TT113),

One data point for you. At work (737), the anti-ice goes on if we will penetrate visible moisture with the OAT (or indicated TAT) +10 C or below.

With no anti-ice/de-ice equipment, my conservative opinion would be to give it a larger margin. In fact, I concur with Pierre above. With no real way to prevent it, or shed it, I wouldn't go there either. Will be taking a look at Bob Ax's recommended reading mentioned above, but my favorite three words for icing in non-deicing equipped airplanes (as for thunderstorms in all airplanes) are avoid, avoid, avoid!

Not sure about the impact of flaps on ice accumulation on an RV. But those nice big, rounded wing leading edges make a pretty big target cross-section for the stuff. Another item (data point) from work is that we are prevented by limitations from holding in icing conditions with flaps extended. Not sure if its due to increased wing icing or increased tailplane icing, or both...but it is bad juju, either way. IIRC, flaps extended while holding in icing conditions may have been a factor in the crash of an ATR-42 due to tailplane icing many years ago.

I'm another adventerous Navy TacAir bubba, but when it comes to this area, I'm pretty cautious.

Just my $.02

Hope rocketing around in your RV in the Lemoore area is a blast!!

Cheers,
Bob

KBUF approach anomaly and controllability

Apparently the KBUF approach that the accident airplane was flying has known anomalies in the GS and/or LOC signal. Add to that an autopilot coupled approach, and possibly aircraft control compromised by airframe icing, and you could have what caused this accident.

RV's in icing condx? On purpose? Wrong airframe no matter how equipped, and not what RV's are designed to do.

Also, don't forget carb icing which can occur at OAT's well above freezing.

wv4i said:

Apparently the KBUF approach that the accident airplane was flying has known anomalies in the GS and/or LOC signal. Add to that an autopilot coupled approach, and possibly aircraft control compromised by airframe icing, and you could have what caused this accident.

RV's in icing condx? On purpose? Wrong airframe no matter how equipped, and not what RV's are designed to do.

Also, don't forget carb icing which can occur at OAT's well above freezing.

Click to expand...

Link,

Concur with you on the icing thoughts. Just to add some data to what you said about the KBUF ILS:

At work, we received a bulletin describing the anomaly. Appears that when being vectored for an ILS to Rwy 23 (I believe it's 23, don't have access to the bulletin where I'm at) if the localizer is approached from the right downwind side, and the GS is armed before the localizer is captured, the warning states that before localizer intercept, the GS will show an incorrect "fly down", then rapidly moves to a correct "fly up" indication as one intercepts the loc from the right base (if being vectored below the glideslope, as would normally be the case). If the GS is armed, and captures before this movement occurs, the warning states that the aircraft could pitch down, then up rapidly upon the rapid movement of the GS to the correct indication. That's the way I understand it, and our bulletin requires us to be sure that the GS is not armed until the LOC is captured (something that is standard procedure, but reinforced in the bulletin) and we've asked that we be vectored from the left downwind side as a matter of standard procedure while this gets sorted out.

I have not heard it tied to the recent accident, and am not speculating or inferring as such...will let NTSB do their part on that. However, just wanted to put out what I know on this issue.

Like Larry always says...let's be careful out there!

Cheers,
Bob

Fuel Tank Vents and Icing

One thing to consider if an icing encounter occurs in an RV is the fuel tank vents are not protected and can become blocked. Notice that Cessnas have fuel tank vents located behind wing struts to prevent this.

I asked Van about this years ago and he said, "I never considered that"

A possible solution is a small hole on the back side of the fuel tank vent line. This has been suggested in other posts to take care of blockage from bugs. A more sure solution would be a manual valve to open the the fuel vent line into the cabin.

Chuck
RV-8 N828RV
1380 Hours and Counting

rvmills said:

Link,

Concur with you on the icing thoughts. Just to add some data to what you said about the KBUF ILS:

At work, we received a bulletin describing the anomaly. Appears that when being vectored for an ILS to Rwy 23 (I believe it's 23, don't have access to the bulletin where I'm at) if the localizer is approached from the right downwind side, and the GS is armed before the localizer is captured, the warning states that before localizer intercept, the GS will show an incorrect "fly down", then rapidly moves to a correct "fly up" indication as one intercepts the loc from the right base (if being vectored below the glideslope, as would normally be the case). If the GS is armed, and captures before this movement occurs, the warning states that the aircraft could pitch down, then up rapidly upon the rapid movement of the GS to the correct indication. That's the way I understand it, and our bulletin requires us to be sure that the GS is not armed until the LOC is captured (something that is standard procedure, but reinforced in the bulletin) and we've asked that we be vectored from the left downwind side as a matter of standard procedure while this gets sorted out.

I have not heard it tied to the recent accident, and am not speculating or inferring as such...will let NTSB do their part on that. However, just wanted to put out what I know on this issue.

Like Larry always says...let's be careful out there!

Cheers,
Bob

Click to expand...

I saw that report, and read another talking about it that mentioned the crew was talking amongst themselves about the ice on the airframe, so they were obviously aware of it. The second report I read INFERRED (total speculation at this point) that the pilot flying was springloaded to react in the case of icing-induced tailplane stall, which would manifest itself as a shaking in the control stick (for a direct-connected control surface - which he did not have) and a nose drop, for which the corrective action would be full aft elevator to break the tailplane stall. The report indicated that the pilot allowed the aircraft to get slow on the approach and the pitchup from the ILS caused a further slowdown, and the aircraft reached aerodynamic stall which activated the stick pusher and caused the nose to drop, and INFERRED that the pilot may have misinterpreted this as a tailplane stall, pulling the nose up sharply and entering a deep stall which was unrecoverable in the remaining altitude.

Bob, thanks for the reply. Did a spin rendezvous last weekend with a Debonair - likely the first one HJO has seen in a while.

another icing consideration

If you have a composite constant speed MT prop and you hear the vibration they can get with some ice on them, you'll take great pains to avoid ice in the future. Just a note from personal experience.
Bob House RV9A N462BD