Safe flying altitudes (was "New FAA time for PPL?")

.... My new girl friend ..... I took her flying and told her to fly 3750 MSL,[where it was] and she went to 4000 and did a fine job holding it,but I said 3750 and told her why. So I'm thinking she either is programed for even thousands and thousands + 500 or she doesn't listen well, or maybe that's why it took her 150 hrs. to test. I told her the reason I fly thousands + 250 or 750 when 3000 AGL or below is because everybody is at thousands even or + 500 and if you fly between at 250/750 you are giving yourself a safety margin between the masses.

Safe flying altitudes (split from "New FAA time for PPL?")

....Please don't be offended but the correct altitude is 3500, not 3750 or 3250, the regs are clear about that. Furthermore, your GF needs to realize that 4000' is an IFR altitude and flying at 3750 puts you only 250' lower than IFR guys. Just fly at the correct altitudes and keep your eyes open and use Flight following on cross-countries.

Regards,

Hi Pierre

Hi, Pierre, I believe that you can fly at any alttitude 3000AGL an below, above 3000 AGL its the 3500/4500 east/west thingy. I read this in some mag and ran it by my CFII and he said sounds good to him. Now I'm gona have to get that dang FAR/AIM book out and look it up. I thought it was a good idea and the fella writing the article fly's in the Seattle area and mention how many times he's been close and the 250 ft thing gave him a cushion. Won't be the first time I'm wrong, we'll see what the regs say,because this is what I do religiously. There's 3 things I'm scared of, height's, midair's and my daugther's. People look at me like I'm crazy when I tell them I'm freaked out about heights and I'm a pilot, it doesn't bother me in a plane, weird. Gene

gbumga said:

Hi, Pierre, I believe that you can fly at any alttitude 3000AGL an below, above 3000 AGL its the 3500/4500 east/west thingy. I read this in some mag and ran it by my CFII and he said sounds good to him. Now I'm gona have to get that dang FAR/AIM book out and look it up. I thought it was a good idea and the fella writing the article fly's in the Seattle area and mention how many times he's been close and the 250 ft thing gave him a cushion. Won't be the first time I'm wrong, we'll see what the regs say,because this is what I do religiously. There's 3 things I'm scared of, height's, midair's and my daugther's. People look at me like I'm crazy when I tell them I'm freaked out about heights and I'm a pilot, it doesn't bother me in a plane, weird. Gene

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Gene's correct. The cruise altitude rule applies to flight above 3000' AGL (though my experience is that at that low of altitude people are flying willy nilly at all different altitudes...I keep my head on a swivel).

I understand the 3000' rule....

rvbuilder2002 said:

Gene's correct. The cruise altitude rule applies to flight above 3000' AGL (though my experience is that at that low of altitude people are flying willy nilly at all different altitudes...I keep my head on a swivel).

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......but I teach students to get used to flying east/west plus or minus 500 for good habit's sake. I didn't bother to look up Gene's home elevation because it's a bit of a moot point. What does he do when he's at the coast at near sea level?

Regards,

pierre smith said:

......but I teach students to get used to flying east/west plus or minus 500 for good habit's sake. I didn't bother to look up Gene's home elevation because it's a bit of a moot point. What does he do whe he's at the coast at near sea level?

Regards,

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Well...I don't don't know, but if he is above 3000 AGL he should be using the prescribed VFR altitudes (in his original post he did specifically say "when flying below 3000' AGL")

I understand your teaching philosophy, though I don't fully agree with it. (and take that for what it's worth...I am not a CFI, but I have a lot of respect for everyone who is)
There are a lot of rules as pilots that we need to learn and memorize. I don't think we should develop doing somethign a specific way out of habit. I think anyone learning to fly needs to learn all of the rules and know where they do and don't apply.

Apology to the forum members for the major thread subject drift...

Might be thread drift Scott, but its a good discussion.

I'm in Pierre's camp on this one, though I understand the thought behind the altitude choice Gene. Also concur with Scott's lookout doctrine for aircraft at all altitudes down low. Many aircraft will be climbing or descending down there, especially near airports, so all bets are probably off, and the swivel is sure mandatory!

One throught for the X250'/X750' altitude choice: As Pierre said, that put's you close to potential IFR altitudes, so if one was to be flying near an airport with IFR traffic (Pasco, Yakima, maybe Seattle in your area Gene) one idea would be to find out what the IFR Minimum Vectoring Altitude in the area is (App will tell ya, if ya ask). If you're within 250' of it, and get near IFR traffic (in the approach or departure phase) with Mode S transponders, you might give them a TCAS Resolution Advisory (RA)...which mandates maneuvering (usually a "climb" or "descend"). Would depend on the geometry and closure. You wouldn't be violating any regs by being there, but I just toss this out for thought and awareness. Always good to be good neighbors!

Cheers,
Bob

I'd listen to your girlfriend - if you want to keep her as your girl friend.
Jim Sharkey

jsharkey said:

I'd listen to your girlfriend - if you want to keep her as your girl friend.
Jim Sharkey

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A wise man indeed

I'm with Pierre and Bob on this as well though. I'd stay as close to the standard altitudes as possible. Here in Tampa if you're wondering around at 2700 feet you're smack dab at the altitude controllers are providing for vectors to the IAP on half a dozen IFR approaches in the area.

Even as a VFR pilot I'd become familiar with the local IFR approaches and stay clear of those altitudes and approaches whenever possible when you're not getting radar service -- and Bob's comment on MEA's is dead on.

The flight school where I trained and instructed was populated with ex-military fighter and helo drivers, retired airline and corporate pilots, and lots of career-oriented CFIs.

One thing I always appreciated about the training there was that when a student asked a question such as this, the answer always involved turning to the appropriate FAA-approved literature and looking it up. Those guys would dissect a sentence in the Airplane Flying Handbook like a priest reciting holy scripture.

As a result, the pilots who came out of this "factory" had developed the ability to use these reference materials to their benefit once they were turned loose in the world.

The reasons stated for flying at ALT+/-250' certainly seem sound, but as Pierre and Bob mentioned, there are other factors to consider, such as IFR traffic. The experience of seeing an "altitude unverified" target creeping up on your TCAS is not a pleasant one, I can tell you.

The purpose of my post is not so much to chime in on the altitude question, but to gently chide those pilots (and I think all of us have been guilty) who are satisfied with answers like, "My CFI said it sounded good," or, "I think I read it in some magazine," or, "The guys in the hangar seemed to think...", etc., rather than taking the time to flip to 14 CFR 91.159 and refreshing our memories on what we're *really* supposed to be doing.

As aviators, we're always battling complacency, and I think this is one habit that helps win the war.

(Just one man's opinion.)

No altitude expectation near an airport

TeaSea said:

A wise man indeed

I'm with Pierre and Bob on this as well though. I'd stay as close to the standard altitudes as possible. Here in Tampa if you're wondering around at 2700 feet you're smack dab at the altitude controllers are providing for vectors to the IAP on half a dozen IFR approaches in the area..............................

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Whether I'm flying instruments or VFR, when I'm anywhere near an airport I have no expectation of what altitude traffic will be at since people are climbing and descending. Obviously if I'm near an airport I try to stay away from where I think most pilots will be.

Away from an airport I expect people to follow the regs, which below 3000' AGL means they can be anywhere.

If I'm flying a long ways, I tend to be high so this is all irrelevant. On a short flight (15-20 minutes) over low terrain I tend to fly at less than 3000 AGL, often 3000 MSL. Its legal.

Is it safe? I could give all my theories as to why it is, but they would really have no more weight than the opposing point of view. I also like chocolate.

Flight instructors should teach people to fly the regs and the POH. Also nothing wrong with CFIs implanting their opinions of everything else into students. Being able to mold the next generation of pilots is a perk of being a CFI.

On the other hand, being able to form your own theories about what is safe (if not in the regs) is a perk of being a licensed pilot.

learned something, thanks

Pierre and Brian,others, well you have shown me a new way of thinking. I didn't have a clue about the IFR stuff, I thought they flew at even thousands all the time. I have to admit I don't read the rules any more and that is a mistake. Why the heck didn't my CFII tell me this when I ran this by him. No more x250/x750 for me. Gene PS this is between me and you, the GF doesn't need to know,kidding of course.

I run speed tests at 6,000 density altitude

When I fly the triangular pattern at 6000 ft density altitude that is below 3000 ft AGL I do not call Razorback Approach out over the mountains east of Drake Field (Fayetteville, Arkansas). When it is above 3000 ft AGL I do so there is some zipping around below 3000 ft AGL at times in addition to all of the military training routes that have much faster low altitude traffic. Allways best to keep a good lookout down here.

Bob Axsom

Suspenders and belt

I try to keep a lookout for all aircraft; monitoring radio for clues as well as keeping my head on a swivel. However sometimes visibility isn't great in VFR due to sun, haze, etc. So I try to fly at the alt+500 for the course I'm flying so that it will be easier to see me. Isn't it always easier to spot traffic when they are where you expect them to be? Also, splitting the altitude by 250 feet may give you some margin from people flying at your expected altitude but it also puts you 250 feet closer to people on another level. Not a CFI, but just thinking about it from my understanding...

Patrick:
Well spoken. Whether an FAR or "merely" a recommended practice called out in the AIM, standardization is about forming good habits as well as trying to put ourselves where others expect us to be. It's all about maximizing safety.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP

gbumga said:

Pierre and Brian,others, well you have shown me a new way of thinking. I didn't have a clue about the IFR stuff, I thought they flew at even thousands all the time. I have to admit I don't read the rules any more and that is a mistake. Why the heck didn't my CFII tell me this when I ran this by him. No more x250/x750 for me. Gene PS this is between me and you, the GF doesn't need to know,kidding of course.

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Gene,

Just to clarify, IFR traffic is normally at the "thousands". The thought was that x250/x750 might put you close to those altitudes (not trying to beat it up, just didn't want to mislead...thousands are the norm...however, you bring up another good point, because the MVA can actually be an oddball altitude).

For instance, flying into Las Vegas (KLAS) where I'm based at work, the MVA on part of the downwind/base to the 25's is 5100 feet, and right about 3,000' AGL. It's inside Class B (base is 4500), so it's a different sort of animal, but just an example of a non-thousands MVA. Just another $.02 for the discussion.

I wouldn't be too hard on your CFI. Discussions of MVA's during PPL training are probably not the norm, but this forum gives us a good place to discuss and share...cyber-hangar flying!!

Patrick and Terry's comments about being where others may expect us to be are very good as well. Though the hemi rules don't apply below 3K, making yourself predictable is a good thing...bad for fighter pilots in a dogfight, but good for us when trying to be seen and avoided.

And your secret is safe with us!

Cheers,
Bob

You're right Bob...Good discussion, thanks for moving it.
I also want clarify that I didn't mean to give Gene the idea with my reply to Pierre's post, that flying at off altitudes was a good practice, just that it was not against the rules if he was below 3K AGL.
I also agree that their are often geographical issues related to this subject that many pilots don't ever have to deal with, LAS area was the first one that I thought of. It is even occasionally a factor here in the Northwest.

Here's another thought...consider the effect of altimeter settings. 250' = .25" Hg. It would, I suspect, be pretty easy to have an altimeter setting error of this magnitude for a relatively long flight.

Add to that the vagaries of different pilots' skills in maintaining an altitude precisely (+- 100'? more?) and I don't see what flying at an "odd" altitude does for you, really...

And one more issue.

I understand the thought about trying to separate yourself from all those other planes out there. After all that is what the FAR/AIM is trying to do with the IFR/VFR altitude flight rules.
It will not do you any good trying to create your own rule, because by doing so then you must except that there are going to be others out there doing the same thing. Worst yet their rule may be opposite of yours!

Mid-air collisions are very rare. Just keep a lookout and follows the rules and you will be fine.

Happy, flying.

Kent

You have a plane that climbs well. Get ABOVE all the other traffic and fly the proper altitude based upon direction: 10,500', 11,500', 12,500' and so on.

never trust someone elses altimeter

Don't forget that VFR aircraft are required only to have an altimeter, not a "senstive altimeter adjustable for barometic pressure" (91.205). That means the other guy out there flying may not even have a Kollsman window on his alitmeter.

And even if that opposite direction target you are hoping to avoid has a good altimeter, there is no regulatory requirement for it to be calibrated (unless it is part of the transponder system - very unusual). When I bought my Skipper, I found that the altimeter was off by more than 200 feet (way more on low pressure days), and it hadn't been checked or calibrated in more than a decade. Perfectly legal (and now corrected).

The point is that in VFR you really can't depend on any other VFR traffic to be on a given altitude. Keep your eyes outside of the cockpit, even in cruise!!

Very good point

Ron Lee said:

You have a plane that climbs well. Get ABOVE all the other traffic and fly the proper altitude based upon direction: 10,500', 11,500', 12,500' and so on.

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.....made here. In my experience, most VFR traffic is between 3000 and 7500' here in the Southeast.

A side benefit to be at 10,500 or 11,500, is that you can glide so much further if you ever need to. Smokers beware though, you'll develop hypoxia well below 10,000....ask me how I know. I'm now good for 11,500 for hours...and my scuba air lasts almost twice as long since I quit 12 years ago

Thanks,