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Is this a realistic project?

FlyingArcher

FlyingArcher

Well Known Member
Happy New Year to all RiVeters

I have a used (1230h since new, but 30 y/o) O-320-E2A Lycoming that I will certainly completely overhaul before installing on my RV-9A.

As part of the rebuilding process, is it realistic to think of converting it to Fuel Injection? I'm already a strong believer in Electronic Ignition and would really like to combine it with (E?)FI.
I'm planning long ahead, but I intend to work on the engine while waiting between subkits delivery.
Could anyone here direct me to appropriate information, builders sites, manufactures, etc.. that would help me make my choice for an appropriate solution, if one exists in my specific configuration.
I.e. will I need to change the intake pipes, or drill them to put the injectors?

Thank you
 
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Daniel,

You may not have to overhaul that O-320, just give it a top overhaul.

Once you pull the cylinders you will be able to have a good look inside. If you see any rust on the cam or any other part, then overhaul it. If there is no rust, you have the option of giving the cylinders a light hone, fit new rings, and put them back on.

That's all I did with my O-290, it was overhauled in '59 and pickled and now with 200+ hours on it, it is running fine.

As for the EI, yes do that, the thing will run like a car.

The fuel injection is strictly a personal choice. You will want to have the carb rebuilt, which will cost around $650+/-, so figure that into your decision.

Do a search on fuel injection, you will find many links to the various options. One thing, get ready to open your wallet, it is not cheap. And for the cost, you can burn a lot of extra fuel.

PS. Big Healey's are very cool!
 
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But

You can usually run FI LOP, (carbs can't usually be run this way) which will save a gallon per hour and pay for the FI system in short order.

EI will also provide gas savings with more advance at altitude.

Frank
 
FlyingArcher said:
Happy New Year to all RiVeters

I have a used (1230h since new, but 30 y/o) O-320-E2A Lycoming that I will certainly completely overhaul before installing on my RV-9A.

As part of the rebuilding process, is it realistic to think of converting it to Fuel Injection? snip ...
I.e. will I need to change the intake pipes, or drill them to put the injectors
Click to expand...

I looked at this is some detail. A kit to convert to Silverhawk injector (was Bendix) is available from people like Aerosport Power for around $3K, you will also need a high pressure electric pump for another $500. You will need cylinders that are drilled for the injectors - if yours are old they probably have the boss but it isn't drilled, so you could get them drilled by a good cylinder shop. Alternatively you could contact Airflow Performance who offer injector kits that fit into the primer ports - which your cylinders will almost certainly have. I would contact both companies and see what they offer.

Fitting the kits is quite straight forward. I'm assuming you will be using a vertically mounted injector, with the Silverhawk you may need reverse orientation mixture (so the lever does not hit the FAB air box) - but search on how others have solved that problem. With the Airflow Performance injector it can be time consuming to fit the FAB to the injector body as it is different to the Silverhawk, but there may now be an adapter plate available - ask AFP.

Hope this helps, Pete
 
Electric pump

Can be had from NAPA for about $130 but you will need a relief valve..I bought mine from AFP..Also need a check valve if going with the standard setup, an Andair valve will work or buy AFP's

Frank
 
There is no reason to spend $8k or more for a rebuild unless there is something wrong with the engine. Why not defer that expense?

Other than calendar age, are you aware of any problems with the engine? Why not pull all 4 cylinders and check everything for rust and unusal wear? If you don't find any problems, button it back up, install it, and go flying with it.
 
No.....

FlyingArcher said:
......I.e. will I need to change the intake pipes, or drill them to put the injectors?

Thank you
Click to expand...

......you don't drill the intake pipes. There are usually plugs screwed into the heads on the intake side, on top of the engine. Remove these plugs and screw in the injectors.

Regards,
 
pierre smith said:
......you don't drill the intake pipes. There are usually plugs screwed into the heads on the intake side, on top of the engine. Remove these plugs and screw in the injectors.

Regards,
Click to expand...

The problem with older E series engines is that some cylinders were produced on a budget and the boss for the injector was never drilled out. I have had an E2D and an E3D that both didn't have the bosses drilled, don't know specifically about E2As.

Pete
 
Injection?

penguin said:
The problem with older E series engines is that some cylinders were produced on a budget and the boss for the injector was never drilled out. I have had an E2D and an E3D that both didn't have the bosses drilled
Pete
Click to expand...

I also looked at the I/O option. My 0320 E2D does not have the i/O boss after I upgraded to 160 HP pistons. It also has the smaller intake tubes so my upgrade is more like a 157 HP upgrade.
 
Primer?

pierre smith said:
......you don't drill the intake pipes. There are usually plugs screwed into the heads on the intake side, on top of the engine. Remove these plugs and screw in the injectors.

Regards,
Click to expand...

Hi Pierre,

I've located small allen plugs and according to the Lycoming parts catalog I have, they seem to be used for a primer system. Am I correct?

Thanks to all for your help, I now have the feeling that this could be an interesting project. As I had this engine for a bargain price, I still have some budget for add-ons.
What will help make the decision is that the engine had its magnetos removed, and the carb visibly needs serious overhaul/rebuild, so the price difference with EFI + EI will not hurt that much.

Bill, I'll certainly follow your advice and have a thorough look before splitting the case. The good point is that I know for sure the history of this engine and it never had a prop strike or other mistreatments. It just has been pulled out of an airplane looong ago.
 
FlyingArcher said:
Hi Pierre,

I've located small allen plugs and according to the Lycoming parts catalog I have, they seem to be used for a primer system. Am I correct?
Click to expand...

Daniel, The hose in this picture is attached to the primer port (thanks to Bill R), bear in mind this is quite an old engine - or it might be an O-290, but an O-320 is not much different. If you have injector ports they are higher up on the cylinder quite close to a push rod tube. Airflow Performance offer injectors that can be fitted to the primer ports.

Pete
 
This is it

penguin said:
Daniel, The hose in this picture is attached to the primer port (thanks to Bill R), bear in mind this is quite an old engine - or it might be an O-290, but an O-320 is not much different. If you have injector ports they are higher up on the cylinder quite close to a push rod tube. Airflow Performance offer injectors that can be fitted to the primer ports.

Pete
Click to expand...

Thanks Pete,

This is the exact same place where I've found the small headless allen screw.

If someone has a picture of an injector port on (very) old O-320 cylinders, I'd love to see one, but I think my cylinders are not equipped with them (or I should really wear these glasses :D )

Well, I think I'll contact people from Airflow to enquire on the available options they offer for my engine.

Thanks to all for your valuable help and hints.
 
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Boss found

Well,

Looking at pictures I've found while googling, I've located the boss on my cylinder, but it's not drilled :( so I'll have to use the primer ports.
 
Why

Not drill and tap the bosses for the injectors?

As long as you can drill straight I don't know of any reason why you could'nt do this yourself?

Frank
 
penguin said:
Daniel, The hose in this picture is attached to the primer port (thanks to Bill R), bear in mind this is quite an old engine - or it might be an O-290, but an O-320 is not much different...
Click to expand...
Pete, it is both an old engine and an O-290. That is the primer port.

I suggest he drill and tap the boss for the injection while he has the cylinders off. It won't cost that much to have done and will be the "best" thing to do.
 
Primer port vs drilling the injector boss?

frankh said:
Why not drill and tap the bosses for the injectors?

As long as you can drill straight I don't know of any reason why you could'nt do this yourself?

Frank
Click to expand...

N941WR said:
Snip..
I suggest he drill and tap the boss for the injection while he has the cylinders off. It won't cost that much to have done and will be the "best" thing to do.
Click to expand...

Bill, Frank,

You both seem to imply that drilling the boss and using it would be a better solution than using the existing (and already drilled) primer port. Do you have a specific reason for that? Just curious. Apart from that, I'm not reluctant to use my drill press to do that and as Bill said, once the cylinder is off it might not be that hard to place that boss horizontally and drill through it. I guess the drill and tap dimensions are standard and should be documented somewhere, unless one of you already know the answer ;)

Cheers
 
Electronic Fuel injection

I have wondered for years why someone doesn't set up an EFI system using aftermarket automotive system.

Then use a Posa or an Ellison TBI as the throttle valve and use a failsafe to open selinoid valve to shut off the fuel to the TBI and if the electrical system fails it would automatically open the fuel valve to the TBI.

Safety valve would be hooked to the power switch on the EFI and when the power was on to the EFI it would be closed and when the power was off to the mechanical system, it would be open and operate on the mechanical system.

Doug
 
Aftermarket EFI

As an alternative, you might consider converting to Ross Farnham's SDS system. I have seen photos on his site of a Lycoming adapted to use his system. I don't know the exact cost but I would bet it to be considerably less expensive than going with a certified EFI system. Check near the bottom of this page: http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html

Randy C
RV7A Subaru STI with SDS and turbocharger.
 
Answers

Here is information from Bart at Aerosport Power related to drill/tap dimensions
Bart wrote:
Daniel the actual angle of the injector is not important. The ones I have done, I just center the bore on the boss and replicate the angle as close as I can. The drill bit size is .332 (Q). The threads are 1/8 NPT. Be careful not to over tap the bore or the injectors will bottom out before they tighten up.

Bart
Click to expand...

I also had an interesting exchange with Don Rivera from AFP that he authorized me to report here so that anyone looking for the same info would find some answers by searching this forum.

Don Wrote:
We have two different kits that will fit a up draft sump 320. With a 9A there are some considerations to consider regarding the Van's air box (FAB) .

The 8000013 kit will fit with the stock carburetor cowling. Since this is a smaller cowl you will have to modify the FAB by moving the air filter so that it rests directly on the bottom of the fiberglass box. This should give clearance to the bottom of the FAB to the cowling but it's tight. The distance from the sump to the bottom of the FAB in this configuration is within 1/4" of what it is with the MA-4 carburetor. I also know of possible clearance issues with 320 sumps on "A" models to the nose gear structure as there are different 320 sumps with the carb hole closer to the rear of the sump than other models of the 320 sump. This can be solved by re fabricating the air box mount plate so that the FAB is moved forward. You will also have to modify the supplied throttle and mixture control cable brackets to provide clearance for the nose gear tubing. Using the cowl for the IO-360 or carbureted 360 is deeper so there is more clearance for the FAB and no modification to the bottom cowl or FAB is required with the exception of the possible interference of the FAB with the nose gear structure.

As far a nozzle placement goes, putting the nozzle in the top of the cylinder heads is preferred as it keeps the nozzle lines on the cold side of the engine and keeps the nozzle lines shorter. If you install the nozzles in the primer ports there other considerations that are considered. 1) the vent on the nozzle body is lower than the discharge side of the nozzle there fore after shut down fuel could drip out the vent. Since the nozzles are in the vicinity of the exhaust pipes, this is not a good thing. On this installation we have shrouded nozzles (turbo nozzles) which are vented to a common rail on each side of the engine. The vent rails are then vented overboard or in your installation vented into the air box. 2) While there is no performance change in the two systems (nozzles in the primer port, or nozzles in the tops of the cylinder head) installing the nozzles in the primer ports adds some complexity and additional cost to the system. From a safety stand point installing the
nozzles in the primer ports will require the same consideration wether you use a Precision Silverhawk system or our AFP system. I know Precision does not address these installation issues.

You will of course have to install a high pressure electric boost pump and a high pressure engine driven fuel pump. You can purchase the electric pump and filter from Van's or add the pump and filter to the kit (we manufacture the electric pump and filter for Van's). If you add those parts to the kit add another $500.00. We can also supply the high pressure engine driven fuel pump. Add an additional $350.00 to the kit price.
Click to expand...

So I summarized:
1 - Using the primer ports is doable, but it's simpler and safer to use top of cylinder heads ports.
2 - When ordering FWF kit from VAN's I should ask for (I)O-360 cowls and FAB instead of (I)O-320 so that I don't get bothered by clearance issues.

Don answered:
1) I don't think that putting the nozzles in primer ports is un-safe if done correctly, only a more complex and costly installation. We have done this type of installation many times.
2) You are correct in this statement.
Click to expand...
 
Down Side of EFI for aircraft use

B25Flyer said:
I have wondered for years why someone doesn't set up an EFI system using aftermarket automotive system.

Then use a Posa or an Ellison TBI as the throttle valve and use a failsafe to open selinoid valve to shut off the fuel to the TBI and if the electrical system fails it would automatically open the fuel valve to the TBI.

Safety valve would be hooked to the power switch on the EFI and when the power was on to the EFI it would be closed and when the power was off to the mechanical system, it would be open and operate on the mechanical system.

Doug
Click to expand...

Doug,
The big advantage of EFI for cars, is that it helps improve emissions and fuel economy over a wide range of throttle settings. Our aircraft tend to run at over 50% power (hence a small throttle range) while climbing or cruising. Therefore, we won't see much if any improvement over mechanical fuel injection. The down sides to using EFI on a Lycoming are:
1 More work (design and fabrication)
2 More weight
3 Higher electric current draw during alternator failure operations. This could cut your "battery only" flight time down considerably. The typical modern car uses over 8 amps to run it's ignition and fuel injection systems. Assuming a 4 amp draw to operate the EFI injectors and control box would greatly reduce your "battery only" range in an emergency. This can be overcome with the addition of a secondary battery. However, that adds to problem #2.
I know of a local GlaStar where the builder did install an aftermarket, EFI system designed for automotive aftermarket use. He never got the kinks entirely out of the system.
Charlie Kuss
 
**** shoot

Guys, I really have a lot of experience with old skanky s'posed to be mid-time engines, and sometimes it's Okay... It often isn't. It can seem okay for a couple three hunnerd, and usually when the problems show up they just bite your wallet, but sometimes they bite yer arse. This is an old cherokee engine for sure. Good motor, but it might have a dud oil pump. Aluminum or even sintered. I think it will need a new crank gear and a one piece cam wouldn't hurt. Tear it down, recertify/update your crank, use a new cam/lifter kit, new pump kit, new pump body (probably), have your jugs evaluated for a re-do if you are minimizing or just get new ones. You'll run longer, sleep better, leak less, die less soon. Or if you sell it you won't hand off a dudster to some poor dude. 30 years is a long time for an old sittin' around cherokee motor.
 
Oh, yeah, it may also still have the skinny exhaust valves installed, doubt it but you never know.
 
I bought a engine that was overhauled 15 years ago and pickled, been sitting ever since. In the course of getting it ready for my 8A, I have learned so much about it, that maintance down the road is going to be alot easier. Whatever you decide to do, I like your route.

Randy

8A Finishing, FWF
 
Not a Cherokee

The engine doesn't come from a Cherokee, but from a French Socata MS-892 Rallye.
http://www.lycoming.com/engines/home.do?action=detail&engineModel=O-320-E2A&enginePartNo=8626
I know the full history of the engine and have been able to talk to the A&P mechanics who was in charge of its maintenance and pulled it off the plane 30 years ago.
It's been preserved all that time by 2 different owners who never ended their homebuilt project and decided to sell it.
I have a quite strong experience in rebuilding motorbikes and English cars engines and I'm surrounded by at least two real aircraft engines experts who live a couple of miles from my workshop.
I had the engine for a VERY good price, so even if I have to do a complete overhaul, I'll still be within my original budget and I'll have learned a lot about engine building and maintenance, which is also my goal.
 
overhaul by definition

is nothing more than a teardown and dimensional / condition inspection to ensure serviceable limits. It is prudent to bring high wear parts up to new tolerances. Lycoming has a 12 year calender limit after an engine is put into service. My two concerns are internal corrosion and old rubber. Spend a couple hundred bucks on the rubber and gaskets, get a manual and tear it down, It's not that hard.

Andrew
A&P I.A.
-4 started and sold
dreaming again
flying 11AC
 
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