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And I thought picking out which RV kit was hard

RatF16

Member
Well,

It took me some thought and time to pick out which RV to build. You know, the tandem vs side by side, slider vs tipper, tri-gear or tail dragger.

Now it's tool time.

I've always been the type to buy a good quality tool. In my teenage years I started out by buying a 300 piece Sears Craftsman set and I've been buying Craftsman ever since.

Now I'm afraid that I'll buy an expensive kit (that I know nothing about) and I'll end up with a bunch of junk.

I would like a pneumatic squeezer but I?m not sure what size of yokes to buy. Any feedback would be appreciated.

So my question is, is there any one source that you guy's prefer to buy from? I need to drop some money quick because my empennage is begging for me to work on it!


Cheers,
Ron Hanselman
 
RatF16 said:
Well,
[snip] Now I'm afraid that I'll buy an expensive kit (that I know nothing about) and I'll end up with a bunch of junk. I would like a pneumatic squeezer but I?m not sure what size of yokes to buy. Any feedback would be appreciated. So my question is, is there any one source that you guy's prefer to buy from? I need to drop some money quick because my empennage is begging for me to work on it!
Cheers,
Ron Hanselman
Hi Ron,

Van's talks about (and lists) the tools and suppliers at http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rqd-tool.htm.

FWIW, I ordered my tool set from Avery's (www.AveryTools.com) and would do it again. Pneumatic squeezer is not necessary, but nice to have as it's easier on your hands in the long run (but not much). I used the 3" yoke almost exclusively.

Best,
 
Go for it!

You have reopened an already open can of worms. There is no right answer. There are several good suppliers of tools out there and everyone has their preferences for what is a necessity and what is a nicety.

I have done a lot of comparisons and believe it or not, the low cost providers are not necessarily the lowest cost providers. Yes they appear to have a good deal in one area, but unless you are prepared to buy one tool here, one tool there, and spend 6 weeks putting together a tool kit, I personally don't think it is worth the time to do so. Let's put it into perspective. If you are looking at building a $70K RV7 what difference does it make if you spend $1500 or $1900 on tools? Or for that matter $2500 on tools. Yes it is a sum of money but as a percentage of total cost it is only 2.1% to 3.5% of the total cost.

You will find that some think they couldn't do without a pneumatic squeezer and others don't think one is necessary at all. You will have to decide yourself. Is it worth $800 bucks to buy a new squeezer and several yokes? Maybe it is to you! Or maybe it is worth $400 to buy a used or rebuilt squeezer and yokes. Maybe you would rather build the entire plane with a rivet gun and put that extra $400 to $800 into your panel or paint job. There is no one right answer.

Dan Checkoway does a good job of explaining which tools he used and found most beneficial during construction. I have used his site list as a starting point and then tuned it using my own gut feelings.

I will go out on a limb here and say that I have spent many many hours comparing the costs from popular suppliers with those of the not so popular suppliers. Occassionaly you find one that offers an airdrill for a great price but then those savings are eaten up with slightly higher cost on the other items. An 8 cent difference per cleco may not sound like much but if you are buying 500 of them you are looking at some money. My advice is to pick a major supplier and buy the majority of the toolkit from them. Ask for a quote as they will probably give you a 5% to 8% discount for buying a "kit" from them. If you want to shop for the major items (air drill, rivet gun, squeezer) feel free to do so, but the lower priced tools and supplies are just not worth the time to try to nickle and dime. Add in your time and multiple shipping charges and the savings are eaten up quickly.

In all of the comparisons I did, I found that for what I want, there was seldom more than $300 difference between the vendors prices when looking at $1800-$2500 worth of tools. That puts my time at about $5 per hour.

Save yourself a lot of anguish and time and just go to Cleveland Tools and get what you think you will need. I would say start without the squeezer and see if you really want it or not. You can always add on but you can't give back.
 
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Ron,

When I started this project, I had no idea what a squeezer was! I called Avery and told them what I was doing and they tailored a kit to meet my needs (QB). They sold me things I had no idea what they were (adjustable set holder, etc) but I have found that every thing they sold me I needed, and they were of the highest quality. As you know from Craftsman, nothing beats a quality tools.

Cleaveland is also a good company, but I am just partial to Avery due to how they treated me when I ordered my tool kit, but had a great experience with Cleaveland this summer at Osh.

I have enough faith in Avery that you could just order their RV kit without further question and would be in great shape. They are a quality outfit that sells quality tools. They won't oversell you what you don't need.

You can buy cheap tools, but you will buy twice.

Take care,

Jim
 
Tools

The list on Van's website is pretty close to what my son and I (both building 7A's) actually use. He's on his finishing kit in ABQ, I'm on wings in DET. I'm using many of his tools when he no longer needs them - but have a number of things I bought for myself.

You don't need a 3/16 rivet set (since the spars are assembled already) and I don't have a rivet cutter or a file card/brush. I've used all the tools on the Optional list except for the drill stops.

I've bought tools from various sources and have yet to be dissatisfied. I've been particularly pleased with Aircraft Tool Supply - good prices and very fast delivery (I'm in the same state, so that may help). Avery is also excellent.

I recommend getting Springback Dimple dies (vs. 'regular' dimple dies). I've used them even on my fuel tank with success. There are special fuel tank dimple dies with extra recess to allow for sealant under the rivet head, if you want to spend the extra $$.

I have also done quite a bit of shopping on eBay. I bought a used pneumatic squeezer for $200, and just got a pneumatic right angle drill for $81. So far everything has been in good shape, but it is riskier than buying new. You can save a lot of money on eBay, but it requires more time if you want great deals because you have to be patient and wait for the item & price you are willing to pay. If you want something right away, eBay is usually still cheaper (just wait till the last minute - literally - to bid or you will just run the price up!). I get my 'nice to have, but not absolutely required' tools this way - if I get a good enough deal.

Some of the tools you only use a couple of times, but it's tough to do the job without them. It's too bad that local tool rental places don't have aircraft tools! If you happen to have other builders close by, you may be able to borrow little used stuff from them. For instance, I needed to make 3 flares on tubes for my fuel tank (my son is currently using 'our' flare tool) - so I went to the airport with my tubes and found a fellow EAA'er working in his hanger and used his flare tool for less than 5 minutes (but of course spent an hour socializing...).

It's not over even after you get your tools. Soon, you have to pick intrumentation (EFIS/steam guages) and radios, and design an electrical system. The fun has only just begun :cool:

Dennis Glaeser
 
Avery!!!! Get the 3" and longeron yokes and a 1" and 4" no hole yokes, quick change pins and adjustable set holder for your Pneumatic squeezer. I do not own a hand squeezer nor did I use one on my 7A.

Get Avery's kit and omit the hand squeezer, get a Souix drill and 3X gun, lots of extra #40 and 30 bits, pop rivet dimpler, vice grip riveter, die grinder, right angle drill attachment (or better yet, a right angle drill).


Don't scrimp on tools. Good tools and the right tools will save you time and aggravation and you will get better results.

JMHO
Roberta
 
robertahegy said:
Avery!!!! Get the 3" and longeron yokes and a 1" and 4" no hole yokes, quick Get Avery's kit and omit the hand squeezer, get a Souix drill and 3X gun, lots of extra #40 and 30 bits, pop rivet dimpler, vice grip riveter, die grinder, right angle drill attachment (or better yet, a right angle drill).

I agree with every thing Roberta said. It's your choice on the pneumatic squeezer. I've built mine all with the hand squeezer and let me tell you, there are a LOT of rivets in the wing of a -9 that need to be squeezed.

The one advantage of a hand squeezer over a pneumatic is that you can 1/2 squeeze rivets if you need to and you can do it slowly. I don't know if you can do this with a pneumatic squeezer or not. Ideally, get both since the yokes are interchangeable, if you get the Avery's squeezer.

When and if I build another RV, I will buy the pneumatic squeezer and a 2x rivet gun. I currently have a 3x gun and it is great but after helping Radomir rivet his fuselage together with his 2x gun I realize it would be nice to have both.
 
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Roberta's right!

Still building on my -7A. Canopy to be exact. I bought a kit from Avery to start with. Picked and chose what I wanted and they cut me a discount of 8 or 10%(I forgot exactly what it was). The only thing I would've changed was to NOT get a hand squeezer. Of course, I didn't get the pneumatic squeezer until later-got a deal too good to pass up. If you're going QB you may want to pass on it, but if you're slow-building, it is worth its weight in gold just for all those holes in ribs and bulkheads you'll be dimpling. I'd get a 1" or 2" small nose yoke, a 4" for the long reaches, and a longeron yoke just for those places where nothing else will work. Also an adjustable set stem for the squeezer. I can guarantee you'll get very creative trying to squeeze all the rivets you can as opposed to shooting/bucking them. Shooting's not difficult, just more opportunity for bruises. JMHO

--hawk
 
Don't buy cheap tools

If there is a flute-er or seem-er and one cost say $18 and the other one cost $36, get the $36 dollar one.

Cleavland tools has the highest quality tools and does not sell any real cheap-o instruments. I am not saying don't shop around but use cleavland as a reference. I recommend their dimple dies. They are good folks and built an award winning RV. If you go all Cleaveland you may pay more buy you will have good tools.

ATS has a large selection and their pro-series 2X rivet gun is good quality for the money.

Avery has the C-frame and I think was the original, but now there are a few sources.

Sears has brand new line of power bench tools, band saw, belt/disk sander, drill press and the price and quality looks nice. Got the catalog yesterday and looks like Sears really revamped the quality and lowered the price. I have had sears stuff for a few decades and they really have changed their line for the better at surprisingly good prices. As far as hand tools, wrench, sockets, screwdrivers for the hobbyist Sears is as good as it gets. Of course a Pro will tell you snap-on or Mac are the only way to go but the cost is too high for casual use. This is one exception to the buy the most expensive.


On basic tool that I feel is a must have is a good squeezer. You can get a mechanical hand squeezer. Shop around for different squeezes. Don?t get a heavy one like AST, but on the same token you don?t need the top of the line. One tool I got that is almost a must have for me now is a Pneumatic Squeezer. IT is a little spendy and you have to buy a few yokes but it a dream to work with.
G

PS get a good compressor, 220volts (even if you have to wire a special jack in you shop. No dry oil-less tinker toy compressors.)
 
Took the $3K plunge!

gmcjetpilot said:
Cleavland tools has the highest quality tools and does not sell any real cheap-o instruments. I am not saying don't shop around but use cleavland as a reference. I recommend their dimple dies. They are good folks and built an award winning RV. If you go all Cleaveland you may pay more buy you will have good tools.

On basic tool that I feel is a must have is a good squeezer. You can get a mechanical hand squeezer. Shop around for different squeezes. Don?t get a heavy one like AST, but on the same token you don?t need the top of the line. One tool I got that is almost a must have for me now is a Pneumatic Squeezer. IT is a little spendy and you have to buy a few yokes but it a dream to work with.
G

PS get a good compressor, 220volts (even if you have to wire a special jack in you shop. No dry oil-less tinker toy compressors.)

G - Thanks for the reply, this is what I did.

Bought the complete RV Tool Kit from Cleveland. Upgraded to the Pneumatic Sqeezer and bought some extra's 2.5" longeron/3"/4" yokes, they even pitched in their hand squeezer for another $135! I didn't need it but it looks cool!

Spent the day at Lowes and bought a Tradesman drill press, sander, and bandsaw - all total $318 out the door. The sander was $89 and they gave me another 20% off for taking the display model. I did add the 18 tpi blade for the bandsaw.

I hope the money is well spent :eek:

Check Six,
Ron Hanselman

ps. I have two Craftsman air comp, a 120v and a 220v. Still need to get the big daddy wired.
 
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I'd also get a right angle and straight die grinder (don't buy the harbor freight one...they are CRAP with a capital S).

Loose those stupid drill stops that Avery throws into the kit. Instead, invest 30 minutes with some scrap aluminum learning how to drill. :)

I added a #30 and #40 single flute countersink (it fits in the microstop cage). Single flute countersink leaves a MUCH nicer hole (it doesn't chatter like the 3 flute does). I also added a couple of single flute deburring bits. I just really like how single flute cuts. The 3 flute is faster, though (3 times as fast in fact :) and I use that quite often too depended on what I'm doing.

You're going to need a Vixen file and a decent handle for it (you COULD use a crappey wooden handle but why would you when you can get a nice rubber handle). While you're at it, pick up a set of punches (you'll need them for drilling out rivets and stuff), a set of files in addition to the Vixen file (you'll need this for fine work and smoothing out the marks left by the Vixen file), and a set of micro files. All this stuff can be had fairly cheaply at Sears/Lowes. I don't use Harbor Freight for stuff like this because many of their tools are suspect in quality. Why buy stuff twice, right? I did buy the micro files there, though. I think some of this stuff comes in Avery's kit, but I dumped it and went to Sears instead because they were WAY cheaper on some things.

You' gonna need a bench grinder. Now that I DID buy at Harbor Freight...get the one with ball bearings...it's only a couple of bucks more. You put the scotchbrite wheel in there. In fact, I ordered the coarse wheel also and put that on the other side. If you're priming you're gonig to need some sort of paint gun. Once again, you can't go wrong with Harbor Freight here.

Think ahead and setup your compressor. I have a T in mine and two seperate outputs. First it goes to a filter/moisture trap. Then one side of the T just goes to a regulator, and that's what I use to paint. The other side goes to a regulator, then an inline oiler. I use this for everything else. The extra regulator and plumbing was only, like, $20 or something. Incidentally it's a big Kobolt (Lowe's brand) 60 gallon 220V jobby. Is that overkill? Yeah, probably. But you know what, between the compressor and the plumbing my whole air system is %100 headache free and always ready to build when I am. Hell, we're building $60,000+ aiplanes (many are more like $80,000+ these days). An extra one or two thousand spent along the way for little luxuries that make building easier (especially if you're ridiculously busy like me) are well worth it, IMHO.

This stuff isn't nescessary, but it sho' is nice to have:
1) Belt/Disc sander. I have the Ryobi. I LOVE that thing. I use it ALL the time.

2) Bandsaw. I use this occasionally. Do NOT buy the craftsman bandsaws (at least not their consumer grade ones). In general, craftsman make reasonable tools. Their band saws SUCK. I wish I'd bought a Ryobi.

3) Drill press: Used occasionally, but when you need it you need it. There's NO other way to use the fly cutter without killing yourself. Also, you're going to want it to drill through tubes, and things. Craftsman's drill presses are decent for the money.

4) I just picked up a Skill jig saw. You wouldn't believe how convenient that is. Oh, I need a small piece of 2X4 to use as a shim. BuuuuzUZUZUUuzZUZZZZZZ. 30 seconds later, DONE. I use this more than you might think.

5) Get a engraving pen for marking parts (Left, Right...etc) or stock up on BLUE sharpies. For some reason, blue sharpies seem to show through primer really well. I use the engraving pen on the few parts I actually need to mark since Metalprep takes the sharpie right off. I'm lazy and don't want to remark them after I just spent and hour cleaning them.

7) If it's not in the kit, add in a rivet removal tool. Not strictly nescessary (and often I just drill them by hand), but it is convenient, though.

8) You cannot possibly have enough clamps, and you cannot possibly have enough different sizes of clamps. Quick clamps, C-Clamps, vice grip style clamps, etc etc etc. Trust me, no matter how hany you have there will come a point when you wish you had just one more. Harbor Freight is an AWESOME sorce for C-clamps. DIRT DIRT cheap.

9) I have the Harbor Freight metal vice (quick release button, rubber jaws, etc). This works really well and can also serve as a drill press vice I believe. I bought my other vice from Lowes, though. A little bit pricier, but not much though. WAY higher quality.

10) I built a couple of the EAA workbenches. I don't like them that much. They're just too small. I do use them, though. I mounted all the bench tools (except the drill press...I like being able to move that around) to one of them, and I use the other one as a general put-crap-here table. Instead, I went Lowes and bought a fire door. They're wood (on the outside, anyhow), and typically very straight (bring a straight edge and measure or borrow one from the "tool crib"). Let the door overhang the frame about 1" or 2" all around...maybe 6" or 8" on one end. This is useful for clamping things down.

I dunno...this is what I find works for me.

-John
 
jcoloccia said:
5) Get a engraving pen for marking parts (Left, Right...etc) or stock up on BLUE sharpies. For some reason, blue sharpies seem to show through primer really well. I use the engraving pen on the few parts I actually need to mark since Metalprep takes the sharpie right off. I'm lazy and don't want to remark them after I just spent and hour cleaning them.
Let me think...

After spending lots of time deburring parts in an effort to remove all the stress risers, you are going to add stress risers back in with an engraving tool? I?ve never built a plane before nor am I an A&P, IA, CPA, MD, DVM, or anything else but I?m thinking that might not be such a good idea.

Mark your parts with the blue sharpie and track where you put them throughout the Alumniprep, alodine, painting, etc. phase and then re-mark them with the sharpie after the paint dries.

Good luck and enjoy your new tools!
 
Vans says that the engraving tool is perfectly OK. Scribing, however, is NOT. That being said, I engrave very lightly.

-John
 
isham' tool kits

Anybody out there using the tool kit from Isham's (planetools.com)? They offer a full/deluxe kit that appears to rival Avery and Cleveland, but for $300 or so less. Anyone have any experience with Isham's one way or another?
I'm about to buy a complete set from one of those 3 outfits. That extra $300 would be just about enough for the band saw and drill press.
Jeff
 
A bench mounted power tool that I consider important, is a 1" belt sander. I have two Delta brand sanders & use a fine & medium grit belt. Perfect for putting radius curves on angle, or just grinding away parts to a marked line.

Another favorite, is 2" scotchbrite pads in a 90 degree air die grinder for putting the smooth edge on long surfaces. The 2" pads are not available around here anymore, so I'll buy 3" at Sears & cut them down. This type just screws on to a plastic disc mounted in the die grinder, for quick changes.
 
I scanned back thru the posts and didn't see where anyone mentioned a Dremel Tool. IMO ? Indispensible! Check Doug's web site on tools. I posted an idea for a handle on the vixen file to make a plane out of it. It makes it much more controllable for me.

Derrell
7A Finish
 
tool kit

if you have money to spend go with cleveland tool kit ,if not browntool.com has sioux rivet on sale for 220 $ buy main squeeze from cleveland it is more expensive then avery and other brand byt works i tryied many squeezers and this one is the best this way you dont have to spend money for pneumatic rivet squeezer because this one do all EASY i did buy my tools piece by piece i spend about 1600$ but my tool is the best from the best
 
Tools you'll need or love

We bought a homebuilders set from the Yard, good stuff and not expensive, fast shipping. Besides this there are some tools we use all the time or which were very convenient:
- Table belt sander, one of the most used items
- Table drill press
- Pneumatic squeezer (used C-type from the Yard, good value for money), with this tool you can skip the hand squeezer.
- Long yoke min 3"/Longeron yoke/no hole yoke
- Pop rivet dimpling tool
- Reamers for AN3, AN4 AN5 holes! (and slightly smaller drills)
- Countersink tool, also for hole-deburring
- Slow electric Hand-Drill for deburring and steel drilling
- Step drill
- Dremel set
- Scales, especially for us metric guys, Caliper and markers with a fine nose.
Also: torque wrench 2-20Nm and wrenches for AN3, AN4, AN5 and later on the appropriate sizes for the engine.
Do not forget to buy very GOOD screwdrivers, otherwise you will kill your screws and end up drilling out platenuts. :mad: Better still: use Stainless Steel Torx screws and the needed tools.

happy hunting!

Ren? Bubberman
PH-VII Firewall Forward
http://websites.expercraft.com/PHVII/
 
Drill Stops

Hi John, Why do you not like drill stops? I am a machinest and have been drilling holes for 30 years. I like the drill stops because they only drill as deep as you want them to and there is less chance of oversizing the hole dragging the drill back out. The only problem I've had is if you overtighten the screw, the drill run out.

Just curious
Jim Wright RV-9A wings 90919 Arkansas
 
Burraway

After visiting many websites, I came across one that mentionned the Burraway and that it was one of the best purchase he had made. I did'nt know what it was, I researched the web ordered one and agree, Wow ! unless you enjoy deburring holes this is a must it will cut your deburring time in half.

I purchased mine from Wicks, not cheap but these days there is a gentleman selling some used on on ebay.

Luc Bedard
RV7 wings
Gatineau, Qc
 
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rv9aviator said:
Hi John, Why do you not like drill stops? I am a machinest and have been drilling holes for 30 years. I like the drill stops because they only drill as deep as you want them to and there is less chance of oversizing the hole dragging the drill back out. The only problem I've had is if you overtighten the screw, the drill run out.

Just curious
Jim Wright RV-9A wings 90919 Arkansas

I don't really have anything against them. For beginners, though, I think drill stops get in the way of learning proper drilling technique because it doesn't force you to control the pressure on the drill and pay attention to whats going on.
 
I'am building the QB9A. I went to school to build the tail kit and learned alot. This willcost you nothing for this info but pass it forward. Buy CLEAVELAND sqeezer! Handsdown! I tried them all. Order a RV builders kit of tools. Order the C frame and build the table for it. No need for snips yet. If you need them home depot or lowes. Work tables, two if you have room.4"X15" BACK RIVET PLATE. Sears Drill press, 4" belt and disc sande, rband saw.bench grinder with scooth brite wheel and a buffer wheel. Sears 110v 25 gal (black) compressor,. CLEAVELAND X3 gun. not a X2 gun its to light duty. And air drill.. This will get you going. Thanks have fun. Ron sterba
 
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