What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Gandalf's List of Really Dumb ?

Gandalf

Well Known Member
I am always the one willing to ask the really dumb and obvious questions. It is a character flaw that has kept me out of a lot of trouble :) Folks tell me later that they are glad I asked all those questions since they also didn't understand what was going on. So here I go:

I figured out that a CS4-4 pull rivet is a countersunk head rivet and I can see what looks like a universal head on the LP4-4 pop rivet, so my first dumb question is what does the LP stand for in an LP4-4 pull rivet?

DQ#1) What does the "LP" stand for in the designation LP4-4 pull rivet?

My handy dandy chart says to use a #30 drill to drill a hole for a 1/8 inch solid shank rivet, but the reference text included in my RV12 wing kit says to use a #27 drill to drill a hole for a 1/8 inch Bulbed Cherrylock rivet. Apparently that is because the Cherrylock rivet sleeve is 1/64"" over nominal size. So what # drill should I use if I wanted to drill a rivet hole for a _GESIPA_ LP4-3 pull rivet (1/8 inch), the rivet that came in my RV12 wing kit?

DQ#2) What number drill should I use to drill a rivet hole for a GESIPA LP4-3 pull rivet?

If this thread is annoying, let me know and I will terminate it pronto.
 
#30 is the drill and as for what thier rivet designations are, got me.

Try this experiment to see why rivet size and drill size are different. Drill a 1/8 hole and try to put in a rivet. It will go but with some friction. now redrill the hole larger a 64th of an inch at a time until the rivet goes in the hole with no friciton but is not loose. You will end up at the proper size. Incidently, the number of planes built with pop rivets and the builders used 1/8 drills and "shoved" the rivets in would stun you (tornados, thunder gulls, Kolb, kitfox, Avids, Challengers........) thousands of hours and no wing failures.....
 
#30 Drill is slighly oversized

for a 1/8" rivet to allow for proper expansion during formation of the shop head on a driven rivet. Its only a few thousanths larger than a 1/8" bit, but that's the "official" drill.

Its true the Kitfoxes, including mine, use mostly of pop rivets, but only in non-structural application. Other areas, such as the flaperons, use standard aluminum rivets or structural pop rivets.
 
Ok. Thanks for the replies..

DQ#1) What does the "LP" stand for in the designation LP4-4 pull rivet?
Answer: Low Profile
DQ#2) What number drill should I use to drill a rivet hole for a GESIPA LP4-3 pull rivet?
Answer: #30 Drill
DQ#3) Why are some of the aluminum sheets in the wing kit box curved and held in place by a retaining board?
Answer: The curves represent the leading edge of the wing skins.

And for my DQ for the day: My RV12 wing kit plans skip from section 5 to section 13. Am I missing sections 6 to 12 on my RV wing kit plans?

DQ#4) Am I missing sections 6 to 12 on my RV12 Wing Kit plans?
 
Wing Plans

When I visited Van's several weeks ago I bought a set of the wing plans. My wing plans do not have Sections 6 thru 12 either. Section 13 is the Spar Assembly and from just reading throught the remaining sections it looks like everything is included for building the wings and flapperons. My wing kit #105 has not been delivered. I don't have any explanation on why Sections 6 thru 12 are not there. My speculation is that these sections were for the original wing and when they changed the wing they just continued with Section 13.

OBTW, I got a Demo Flight in the yellow RV-12 at Van's. I fly sailplanes but have not flown power since 1980. I was impressed by the size of the cockpit, the handling qualities and the smoothness of the engine. About a year ago I got a demo flight in a LSA Lightning with the 3300 Jabaru engine. IMHO the RV-12's cockpit size, handling and engine smoothness are significantly better. Cockpit size is important to me because I am 6"5". The Lightning was fast and appeared to me to cruise faster that 138 mph. It was a cool day, so standard day performance may have been exceeded?

I also have a RV-12 Fuselage kit on order but have received info on which kit number I have.

Bob Kibby (Discus-2T "2BK")
 
Bob Thanks for confirming that I have all the plans. I am glad to hear that you were impressed by your demo flight. You can work on your shop and collect tools while you are waiting for your wing kit:)

DQ#1) What does the "LP" stand for in the designation LP4-4 pull rivet?
Answer: Low Profile
DQ#2) What number drill should I use to drill a rivet hole for a GESIPA LP4-3 pull rivet?
Answer: #30 Drill
DQ#3) Why are some of the aluminum sheets in the wing kit box curved and held in place by a retaining board?
Answer: The curves represent the leading edge of the wing skins.
DQ#4) Am I missing sections 6 to 12 on my RV12 Wing Kit plans?
Answer: No. The RV12 Wing Kit plans do not have sections 6 to 12 inclusive.

I just had a great conversation with Bob Avery from Avery tools. Buying my tools from Avery and being able to call Bob for tool advice is well worth it! I tried to pop rivet on scrap aluminum using the Avery pop rivet air gun and noticed a strange indentation on the head of the rivets not seen on the hand pulled rivets. Well, just call me Dummy, I was using the wrong tip on the air gun. The second from the smallest tip works great with the 1/8 inch pop rivet and released fine. Bob also suggested cleaning, but not oiling, the stem jaws on the pull rivet gun once a month. Bob also said he would call Jim about his close quarter rivet tool.

DQ#5) Why do I get a dimple on the head of the pull rivet when I use a powered rivet gun?
Answer: You are using too large a tip on the rivet gun and the aluminum on the head of the rivet is being formed into the opening in the tip of the rivet gun.
 
my dumb question ...

Finally, I finished my wing kit this evening. :D Total time: 232.5 hours. :) I don't think I'll win any speed building contests, so I won't even enter. :rolleyes: I needed 100 hours more than Jim Cone to complete the RV-12 wing kit.

Well, here's my question. My wings and flaperons have fingerprints and smudges, and dried saliva (where I blew aluminum flakes and shavings off) and maybe even some hamburger and french fry grease on them. What product should I use to wipe them down, so they look a little cleaner. Should I use a microfiber rag? I've plenty of 'em. I'm sure it's OK if the blue print on the aluminum smears. Hopefully, the print will it come off easily enough? Any suggestions?
 
Cleaning the skins

I'd just use a soft cloth and water with Dawn detergent. Takes the grease, oil, cr*p, and blue ink right off. Should do the trick for you.
 
DQ#1) What does the "LP" stand for in the designation LP4-4 pull rivet?
Answer: Low Profile

DQ#2) What number drill should I use to drill a rivet hole for a GESIPA LP4-3 pull rivet?
Answer: #30 Drill, Just like a solid 1/8 inch rivet.

DQ#3) Why are some of the aluminum sheets in the wing kit box curved and held in place by a retaining board?
Answer: The curves represent the leading edge of the wing skins.

DQ#4) Am I missing sections 6 to 12 on my RV12 Wing Kit plans?
Answer: No. The RV12 Wing Kit plans do not have sections 6 to 12 inclusive.

DQ#5) Why do I get a dimple on the head of the pull rivet when I use a powered rivet gun?
Answer: You are a tip with too large of an opening on the rivet gun and the aluminum on the head of the rivet is being formed into the opening in the tip of the rivet gun.

DQ#6) Is there a directionality for internal protruding head rivets?
Answer: Unless directionality is specified in the plans or required by physical constraints, the rivets don't appear to know which way they are going.

DQ#7) My wings and flaperons have fingerprints and smudges. What product should I use to wipe them down, so they look a little cleaner?
Answer: You can use a soft cloth and water with Dawn detergent.

Is a micro fiber cloth OK?

DQ#8) Is every part in the RV12 wing kit covered with blue plastic film alclad?
 
Last edited:
DQ#6) Is there a directionality for internal protruding head rivets?
Answer: Unless directionality is specified in the plans or required by physical constraints, the rivets don't appear to know which way they are going.

Hi Gandalf,

If there is no direction specified, I personally like to put the thinnest material being riveted directly under the rivet manufactured head and let shop head pull up against the thicker material. Through personal experience I get less metal deformation on the back thicker side if i do it this way. Just a tip, use it or not.

Regards
Rudi
 
Hi Gandalf,

If there is no direction specified, I personally like to put the thinnest material being riveted directly under the rivet manufactured head and let shop head pull up against the thicker material. Through personal experience I get less metal deformation on the back thicker side if i do it this way. Just a tip, use it or not.

Regards
Rudi

Hi Rudi... Thanks for the tip. I suppose it also is a habit from riveting thinner dimpled aluminum sheet onto thicker machine countersunk aluminum.

DQ#1) What does the "LP" stand for in the designation LP4-4 pull rivet?
Answer: Low Profile

DQ#2) What number drill should I use to drill a rivet hole for a GESIPA LP4-3 pull rivet?
Answer: #30 Drill, Just like a solid 1/8 inch rivet.

DQ#3) Why are some of the aluminum sheets in the wing kit box curved and held in place by a retaining board?
Answer: The curves represent the leading edge of the wing skins.

DQ#4) Am I missing sections 6 to 12 on my RV12 Wing Kit plans?
Answer: No. The RV12 Wing Kit plans do not have sections 6 to 12 inclusive.

DQ#5) Why do I get a dimple on the head of the pull rivet when I use a powered rivet gun?
Answer: You are a tip with too large of an opening on the rivet gun and the aluminum on the head of the rivet is being formed into the opening in the tip of the rivet gun.

DQ#6) Is there a directionality for internal protruding head rivets?
Answer: Unless directionality is specified in the plans or required by physical constraints, the rivets don't appear to know which way they are going, but prefer placing the manufactured head on the thinner sheet.

DQ#7) My wings and flaperons have fingerprints and smudges. What product should I use to wipe them down, so they look a little cleaner?
Answer: You can use a soft cloth and water with Dawn detergent.

Is a micro fiber cloth OK?

DQ#8) Is every part in the RV12 wing kit covered with blue plastic film alclad?
 
DQ#8) Is every part in the RV12 wing kit covered with blue plastic film alclad?

Yes. I've never seen Van's use plastic on non-alclad parts. However, beware. Blue is not the only color; I've also received parts coated in clear. On some stamped parts w/o bends, I didn't notice the film until I drilled or, in the case of a couple of parts, when etching lifted the plastic. Where parts are formed, the plastic lifts so you can see it. Usually, too, there is an edge where the film doesn't quite cover and you can spot the slight color variation for about 1/8" along the edge.

Dealing with the film has been the source of a lot of discussion and I'm sure a search will turn up a lot of tips. I'll just leave you with a couple of don'ts: don't drill or dimple where there is film. The film tends to capture chips when drilling and dimpling often leaves a little ring of film in the dimple.
 
DQ#8) Is every part in the RV12 wing kit covered with blue plastic film alclad?

Yes. I've never seen Van's use plastic on non-alclad parts. However, beware. Blue is not the only color; I've also received parts coated in clear.

Flion... I only plan to prime "aluminum bar, _angle_ and tubing" that is not alclad. So, sure enough, the first step in building the wing is to attach "angles" , which come wrapped in blue plastic, to the spar. These angles sure seem to be alclad to my novice eye. Thanks for confirming that.

DQ#1) What does the "LP" stand for in the designation LP4-4 pull rivet?
Answer: Low Profile

DQ#2) What number drill should I use to drill a rivet hole for a GESIPA LP4-3 pull rivet?
Answer: #30 Drill, Just like a solid 1/8 inch rivet.

DQ#3) Why are some of the aluminum sheets in the wing kit box curved and held in place by a retaining board?
Answer: The curves represent the leading edge of the wing skins.

DQ#4) Am I missing sections 6 to 12 on my RV12 Wing Kit plans?
Answer: No. The RV12 Wing Kit plans do not have sections 6 to 12 inclusive.

DQ#5) Why do I get a dimple on the head of the pull rivet when I use a powered rivet gun?
Answer: You are using a tip with too large of an opening on the rivet gun and the aluminum on the head of the rivet is being formed into the opening in the tip of the rivet gun.

DQ#6) Is there a directionality for internal protruding head rivets?
Answer: Unless directionality is specified in the plans or required by physical constraints, the rivets don't appear to know which way they are going, but prefer placing the manufactured head on the thinner sheet.

DQ#7) My wings and flaperons have fingerprints and smudges. What product should I use to wipe them down, so they look a little cleaner?
Answer: You can use a soft cloth and water with Dawn detergent.

DQ#8) Is every part in the RV12 wing kit covered with blue plastic film alclad?
Answer: Yes, but beware that some alclad kit parts from VANS may be covered in clear plastic.

DQ#9) When do I use the LEFT aluminum shear?
Answer: When making cuts in aluminum away from you curving to the left, use the LEFT aluminum shear.

DQ#10) How do I keep the drill tip from walking when I am drilling aluminum sheet?
Answer: You can twist the drill chuck while applying slight pressure to etch the surface of the aluminum sheet and then give the drill gun a quick burst to seat the drill bit before "drilling" the hole.

DQ#11) How do I keep from marring the alcad when removing the tabs from the angles?
Answer: First, I covered the grinding post with duct tape. Second, I found that I could leave the blue plastic on the angles and still remove the tabs with a medium wheel on a bench grinder. This allowed me to rest part of the angle on the grinding post for maximum control. I then removed the plastic from the angle, hand de-burred the angle, and then, using an unsupported free hand technique, machine de-burred the edges using a scothbrite wheel. For a final touch, I hand sanded the edges with a scotchbrite pad.

DQ#12) How do I separate the W1210B-R and W1210B-L doublers?
Answer: While this is certainly a most opportune time to convince the spouse that you need a band saw, I clamped the larger piece between two pieces of wood and used a Dremel Cut Off tool to amputate the smaller piece.

DQ#13) Must I de-burr the factory rivet holes?
Answer: "The sheet aluminum is joined by pull rivets pressed through holes that are not just pre-punched but punched to final size; no final sizing, deburring or dimpling."

DQ# 14) How do I keep the #30 extension drill from wobbling as I drill?
Answer: As instructed in the "Standard Aircraft Manual" I supported the drill lightly with one hand, away from the flutes, _while_ drilling with the other hand. Some authors recommend using a drill guide "made from a piece of tubing that is held with the free hand."

DQ#15) How do I de-burr a drill hole if I do not have clearance for the quick de-burring tool?
Answer: Switch to the smallest de-burring head on the swivel hand de-burring tool and use that to de-burr the hole. Or use a slightly over size drill and twist it by hand.

DQ#16) How do I drill and tap the AEX tie downs when they are already mounted on the spar?
Answer: I quick clamped vertical 2X4s to the side of the legs of my EAA tables and, using wood to protect the spar, then quick clamped the spar to the 2X4s so that the spar was held, resting on the tables, with the tie downs vertical. I then spun the head of my table top drill press around 180 degrees and placed it on one of the EAA tables so that I could drill out the AEX tie downs. I used a level and shims to align the drill and the hole. Remember to use tap oil on the tap when you tap the holes and follow the instructions in the plans for clearing aluminum from the tap as you go. I found that a drop of drill/tap oil also helped with the drilling.

DQ#17) How do I remove 1/8 inch pop rivets?
Answer: Do not panic. This is going to happen and you CAN do it. First get yourself a #31 drill which is just a smidge smaller than the #30 drill, just in case you drill to far, you will not enlarge the hole. Next get yourself a spring center punch with an awl point on one side and a nail driver on the other side. Ground down the awl point so that it just covers the steel mandrel. Ground down the nail driver so that it cleanly fits through a rivet hole and is just long enough to drive out the rivet. Now center punch the steel mandrel so that it does not interfere with the drill. Then drill very slowly until you have gone through most of the rivet head. Use the nail driver side of the punch or the drill to snap off the rivet head. Then use the spring center punch to drive out the rivet. It really works. I should know!

DQ#18) How do I use a ScotchBrite wheel to de-burr the scalloped flanges on the ribs?
Answer: Avery has a one inch ScotchBrite wheel that can be attached to a drill press or grinder using the included mandrel.

DQ#19) How do I control the power pop rivet gun after it breaks off the pull rivet stem?
Answer: I use two fingers of the free hand to hold the nose of the power gun and press these fingers on the surface to be riveted.

DQ#20) How do I rivet the attach angles without bending the angles?
Answer: I ground off just enough of the top of the tight space hand pop rivet tool with a medium grinder, without excessively weakening the tool, so that the rivet tool would fit over a rivet in the attach angle without the top touching. I then added some duct tape to the rivet tool so that I could dispense with the aluminum protective sheet. The duct tape will need frequent inspection and replacement. According to the plans, a wedge of aluminum can also be used with an air rivet puller. I had limited success although others report good success by bending the shaft before riveting. Finally, Jim C has made a wedge close quarters tool that works with an air rivet gun.

DQ#21) The holes in the factory attach angles and spar do not line up. How do I rivet these angles?
Answer: I used the special tight space hand rivet tool. I then placed a tapered awl in one of the external factory holes and marked the spot where the awl stopped. I then ground off the tip of the tapered awl to make a hole alignment tool. I then placed the rivets in the holes by placing the hole alignment tool in an adjacent hole and pivoting the tool perpendicular to the hole to center the hole. The trick is not to pull any rivets until you get all of the rivets placed in the holes in a given attach angle. In the rare case that the rivet still would not go into a hole, I "touch drilled" the hole with a #30 drill using a drill guard and then de-burred the hole with a swivel de-burring tool and/or a quick de-burring tool.

DQ#22) Do I need to radius the corners of the attach angles?
Answer: Yes.

More at: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=34004
 
Last edited:
Back
Top