Help! P-mags makes my engine run rough!

Hi.

First the gooood news: on Saturday, another RV took to the skies in Norway, and this time it was the VERY FIRST -7 ever airborne in Norway!
(pics will be posted later)
What a GREAT plane!! I'm still grinning....!

The 2 hr flight went fairly well and the plane flew straight as an arrow!

The engine started to run rough approx 5-10 mins after liftoff and it gradually became worse.
It felt and sounded like the engine missed a compression or maybe misfired slightly every 2-4 secs.
The chase plane could see that the exhaust system was "moving" during the misfiring.

I turned off the power to the P-mags in turn and let them run on their own power. For the right P-mag, there was no improvment, but when I turned off the power to the left P-mag, the engine was running like silk again.

I didn't try to turn off the mags with the igntion key at all, since the problem was solved turing off the P-mag power.

After running with the left P-mag on it's own power for approx 5 minutes, I tried to turn the power back on. After 2-4 minutes, the engine gradually started to run rough again.
When back on pmg power, the engine was smooth again.

I tried this approx 5 times, and every time the result was the same.

It was a hot day, approx 90F on ground and I flew at 2-4000' with oiltemps around 200F all the time.
Power was steady at 25/2500 for the first hour, then varied during the second hour beetween 23/2300 and 25/2500 every 15 minutes according to the engine manual.

The high ground temps made me think that this maybe could be a P-mag cooling issue?

Other temps (EGT, CHT) was ok.
I can get hard data later if neeed. (I'm at work now)

I didn't lean at all for the first hour, but leaned ever so slightly for the next hour. No improvement on the engine roughness.

I'll also contact E-mag air about this ofcourse, but it's also very interesting to hear what you guys think?

Setup:
Extreem IO-360 from Eagle Engines with a M/T 2-blade prop. 8,5 compression.
Silwer Hawk injection.
Dual P-mags.

Sooooo.... any ideas gentemen...? And women...?

Two people I know have had similar problems with their P-Mags. Solution is to contact Emagair and get their upgrade.

Congratulations!!!!!!

Way to go!!!!

A friend had trouble with his P/mags for a while, the factory was very helpful for him.

It seems that the earlier units had the problems, and later iterations have been working well. How long have you had the unit????

As Vern suggested, contact the factory, have your invoice available, so you can tell them when you bought, and serial number.

Again, congratulations on the first flight

Cool the neck!

Alf, talking to Brad at Emag many of the problem units are overheating he told me. You say it was very hot also, and when you turned it off it would have cooled and then when back on run more normally. Just my thoughts.

Have you got the blast tube firmly aimed at the neck of the P-mag. It is important it is cooled at the neck with plenty of air.

Mine are running superbly well with 15 hrs so far, and also very hot weather on Sunday.

Good luck! Steve.


PS Congratulations on getting airborne, but dont stay up too long on one mag!

PPS I am a bit puzzled why turning external power off is helping. I thought they always defaulted to running on their own power if there was enough. I am puzzled about that. I would give Brad a call. He is really supportive.

Upgrade and cooling ok

Hi again.

Thanks for the inputs.

I bought the units in 2006 (113 series) and had them in for the latest upgrade just after S&F this year.

Both P-mags have blast tubes installed per plans, aimed at the neck (the round portion)

I've tried several times today to go to their website to get their e-mail adress (I'm still at work so I don't have their e-adr here), but when entering www.emagair.com the page says I need a password and a username to go to their website??
I've been to that website many times earlier, but I've never seen that? Anyone else experiencing this or is it just the internet connection from Norway maybe?

PS: It's possible I'm mistaken, but when turning the power off to the P-mag, (NOT the L or R mag switch on the ignition key, but the combined power/CB switch) and let the P-mag run on it's own power, (PMG) I thought the P-mag still was functioning as normal?
Or is it something I have completely misunderstood here...?

The whole first flight was done circling over the airport (8000' RWY) at 2-4000' by the way...

I've tried several times today to go to their website to get their e-mail adress (I'm still at work so I don't have their e-adr here), but when entering www.emagair.com the page says I need a password and a username to go to their website??
I've been to that website many times earlier, but I've never seen that? Anyone else experiencing this or is it just the internet connection from Norway maybe?

Click to expand...

It's broken the same way for me as well. If the virus started in Norway, it spread far and fast.

Hope the Emag guys get their server fixed soon...

Same Problem

I am having the same problem with one of my p-mags, they are of the same vintage bought in 2006 but never used until now. Just got them back last week after a software update. The mags both have 0.80 hrs them, never made it into the air yet!
The problem seemed to start after 0.50 hours during a mag check at run up. One mag ran extremely rough hence the reason both were sent back for upgraded software. On Saturday I re-installed the mags and did a run-up and mag check, the same Mag is still running extremely rough. I then swapped the mags round to make sure it wasn't an installation problem and sure enough the problem followed the mag over to the other side. This confirms that the installation was correct and the problem lies with the mag.

I am also having problems getting on their web-site I get the same message as you. I think they have server problems as I have see this before.

Unfortunetly Brad is a Oshkosh this week so it'll be next week before I can talk to him.

I will keep you posted on how I get on.

You guys should call Brad on his cell phone at Oshkosh. I bet he will answer.

e-adr and phone # ?

Hi.

Does anyone have Brad's cellphone number and e- mail adress?

Thanks.

I will stop by the booth and ask him for a number and send it to you e-mail.

I sent you a PM with the OSH phone number. I talked to the guys at the booth and they can help. Give them a call.

Another 2 cents...

My P-mags are both 113 series and of similar vintage, delivered early 2006 as I recall. I had numerous failures and "teething" troubles with mine as well; the last glitch I had at around the 200 hour mark sounds similar to your current problem.

I followed Brads suggestions and checked out my installation, wiring, plug leads and all that, but the problem remained. The final step of troubleshooting was swapping the units... lo and behold, the problem moved with the P-mag as Jim mentioned above. I sent it in and Brad mentioned that it indicated it had overtemped (I have blast tubes on the neck) but could find nothing else wrong with it. He replaced the circuit board and it's been running fine ever since... that was around 140 hours ago.

I will say that Brad and Tom are easy to work with and want to get these things running right... both of my units have had the circuit boards replaced, and both times the problems ceased. Perhaps the early units boards are a bit questionable? I don't know for sure, but mine seem to have found their happy place, running fine at 345 hrs TT.

Good luck!

Post Shut Off Heat Soak

I think that the electronics in these are a little tender and the problem may be occurring after shutting off, they get too hot when all the cooling air stop blowing on them and the hot engine heats everything in the cowl up.

Hans

Just wondering if the heating is such a problem for these units, why there is no proper heat spreader in the unit itself. Area where the heat can radiate could be easily doubled or more with few fins. If the PWBs wouldn't get broken all the time the price of the units might be dropped... it seems to me that they are not willing to fix the real problem.

Heat related

I am watching this thread as I would like to install P-mags at some point and upgrade from mags.
I've noticed in my local area and other RV planes I've visited that some guys have the cabin heat selector valve installed upside down.
What I mean is the hot air from the exhaust muff is attached to the bottom of the valve and the un-used warmed air goes out the top, which in some locations is right below the right mag!
Now I think the proper installation would be hot air from the heat muff in the top and un-used warm air expelled towards the bottom cowl exit.
Just something to check!

Added Heat

Bob Martin said:

I've noticed in my local area and other RV planes I've visited that some guys have the cabin heat selector valve installed upside down.
What I mean is the hot air from the exhaust muff is attached to the bottom of the valve and the un-used warmed air goes out the top, which in some locations is right below the right mag!
Now I think the proper installation would be hot air from the heat muff in the top and un-used warm air expelled towards the bottom cowl exit.
Just something to check!

Click to expand...

This is a good point Bob. I rebuilt my stainless steel heater box to vent the hot air down. I'm in AZ and fly in the heat, sometimes extreme heat and have not had a heat related issue ever. I do not have any cooling tubes on the units. Flew to my job yesterday and took off at 4 pm 106 degrees.

I had some early problems but have not any issues in over 200 hours.

Quick question

I hope I'm not deviating too much from the original thread, but I just finished installing my baffels and plenum...I did not install any blast tubes yet. Is this required? It seems like a good idea. What are you guys using for tubes and how do you attach them to the baffels?

Thanks.

I just used the standard corrugated black tubing from Vans. Cut a hole in the baffles at a convenient spot. Make the size so it fits the smaller radius on the tubing. Tie-wrap the tubing so it points at the P-mag. Done deal.

I actually have a blast tube only on the right P-mag. Couldn't figure out a convenient method to cool the left one. My cabin heat selector valve dumps sideways and not up or down.

I haven't had any heat related problems in 130ish hours. Of course I do live in Seattle.

Thanks Dave. I've seen a picture or two somewhere that somebody used metal tubing for blast tubes. Actually, it may have been the photo's that I got with my plenum from Sam James. I like the idea of using the plastic corrugated tubing better...lighter, flexible, easier to install (it seems).

Yup, very easy to install. They are a bit difficult to aim precisely, though. Sorry I don't have a picture to show you.

....blast tubes ARE required.

lostpilot28 said:

...I did not install any blast tubes yet. Is this required?

Click to expand...

Sonny, If you look in the docs you will see blast tubes are required. If you go here, scroll down to the last picture, and double click it so you get a larger view, you can just see the right hand corrugated plastic tube. You must aim it at the thinnest bit of the neck. I spoke to Brad (E-mag ignitions) about this and he emphasised that many of the units that came back with faults had been overheated (They record the hottest temp they have seen in the software.). I also have temperature sensitive stick-ons on mine that should go off at 93C. They havnt gone off and have worked superbly, but then I only have 16 hours on the aircraft.

AFS have indicated they will implement the EICAD software on their unit. It will be great if they do because then those of us with P-mags and the AFS 3x00 can read the P-mag temps, presumably, in flight. I think that will really show the faulty units as being subject to higher than normal temps, but it is just a guess.

I also am concerned that they must get quite hot when the engine is shut down.

I'm guessing this was already discussed, but why point the tubing at the thinnest part of the neck instead of the little screen area?

Alf,

Great news on your first flight, congratulations!

After one of your flights, did you check the timing on the left (and right) P-mags while they were still hot? If so, did you notice any problems?

You mentioned that you had them back for "upgrades", did they also do the magnet retention upgrade? The early P-mags had the timing magnet attached with epoxy and they have an upgrade to replace the epoxy with brass retainer and screws. Heat can cause the epoxy to fail, thus this upgraded is also required.

I suspect that when you switched them left and right, you didn't move any of the plug's. But please verify the routing of the plug wires and make sure they are not touching any metal structure.

Are you running auto or aviation plugs?

As the others have mentioned, blast tubes are required. There are pictures of my installation on my third engine page (http://www.repucci.com/bill/engine_pg3.html).

BTW, I'm up to 181 trouble free hours with duel P-mags. BTW, my first flight was August 5, 2007. Like you, I had a problem on my 2nd flight, sent both P-mags off for the upgrades and never looked back.

Alf,

After re-reading your post, I find it difficult to believe your CHT's and EGT's were "OK". Could you post those numbers?

If a P-mag (or any mag) looses it's timing, the CHT's typically sky rocket.

Is it at all possible that the offending P-mag was not clamped down and moved just enough to through off the timing when it heated up and moved back when it cooled down?

Steve Sampson said:

Sonny, If you look in the docs you will see blast tubes are required.

Click to expand...

Thanks Steve...your picture was very helpful. I've heard that the P114 series of P-mags have fins on the chassis. I'm not sure why the neck area seems to need more cooling than the rest...any thoughts on this? Is this area where the cooling fins are located on the new 114's?

Makes me wonder if cooling fins could be retro-fitted to a P-113 to assist in cooling.

Davepar said:

I'm guessing this was already discussed, but why point the tubing at the thinnest part of the neck instead of the little screen area?

Click to expand...

Dave, for no other reason than Brad at E-mag ignitions is very insistent that it is the correct place; not the screen. It is counter intuitive I know.

If you talk to him, he is concerned that too many owners dont have blast tubes set up as described in the docs.

Steve.

More data

Hi again.

Thanks for all the inputs folks!

I'm finally back home after 5 days at work, so it's time to focus on the RV again.

Here's some answers to the questions:

I don't know which upgrade I got when I sent P-mags to Brad in April this year, but at least by that time, they got the latest upgrade. Does anyone know if there is a newer upgrade out?

I've only flown one trip (lasted 2 hrs) so far, and I've not yet swopped P-mags or anything else because I wanted to talk to Brad first.

Tomorrow I'll verify plug routing, wiring and timing.
I'll also check if it's possible for the P-mag to move when it's heated up.

I'm running the autoplugs and wires which the P-mags came with.

Below is two pics taken during the first flight.
The first one is take after 36 minutes and the second after 73 minutes.





You'll see that there's no RPM-indication.
The indication quit showing above approx 2000 RPM during takeoff and showed up again during taxi in.
I had just installed the "RPM-board" from AFS, so I was thinking everything was ok.
I had however, brought along a digital RPM-counter and had taped it on top of the glareshield. So that's what I used during the flight.

The oilpress was at 50-52 for the entire flight, but I was expecting 80-90. This can be an indicator problem. I'll check that out tomorrow too.

The CHT for #1 seems alittle low, but I guess it's too early to start experimenting with alu-tape?

So: any thoughts folks?

PS: I've not yet been able to reach Brad on his cellphone, but I'll keep trying...

An update

Hi.

Here's an update on my P-mag problem:

I was finally able to reach Brad on his cellphone (bad cellphone coverage at OSH) and he was VERY helpful, (as always!)

He said that the problem is most probably a faulty circuit board in the left P-mag.
He said my circuit board probably had a problem with it's "power delivery system", since the P-mag is running OK when on it's own power.

Therefore I'll probably send in the P-mag to him for exchange of the circuitboard.

Soooo... it seems like the problem is identified and hopefully solved soon. Stand by for a final update after the swoop.

PS: I'd like to add that the engine is running VERY smooth when both P-mags works ok. It's almost humming! It's no doubt the smoothest engine I've ever flown behind...