Van's Air Force
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Poll: How will you build your 12?
- Thread starter Alex
- Start date
JimLogajan
Active Member
Alex,
Since the FAA has not blessed the -12 with regard to the 51% rule, I thought the only option was to build them as an S-LSA. In other words, carbon copies of Van's -12.
Has this changed?
Any information you've read previously was probably speculation or possibly misinformed opinion. The information on the brochure put out by Van's yesterday should have made clear that E-AB is not and has never been explicitly ruled out:
http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/12_snf_08.pdf
"From the information currently available, E-AB certification will still be allowed on an individual basis, but the burden of proof of meeting the 51% rule will be entirely the responsibility of the builder. Because the RV-12 kit has no pre-assembled parts, E-AB licensing should be almost certain."
N941WR
Legacy Member
Jim,
Thanks for posting that. Let's hope there is no problem with building E-AB -12's!
Phyrcooler
Well Known Member
I checked "Haven't Decided". I am planning on starting with the plan to certify it as an E-LSA in case something goes sideways with the FAA as they finalize the new 51% interpretations. I would expect to have that resolved before I do the Panel/FWF... which is where I see myself considering options. If I run out of money... and there are no E-AB issues, I will go with a couple MGL gauges and engine monitor, Icom radio, transponder and my existing 600C GPS.
But if I have the money, I will probably go E-LSA. The more I think about it, and the more I see these 100K+ S-LSA's out there, I think that there will be a resale market for an E-LSA RV-12 in the 60 to 70K range. I will use that money to pay for my next project...
My plan is to fly the 12 for a couple few years while I build a bigger project... like my dream "stretch-9".
DJ
But if I have the money, I will probably go E-LSA. The more I think about it, and the more I see these 100K+ S-LSA's out there, I think that there will be a resale market for an E-LSA RV-12 in the 60 to 70K range. I will use that money to pay for my next project...
My plan is to fly the 12 for a couple few years while I build a bigger project... like my dream "stretch-9".
DJ
JerryG150
Well Known Member
Change of Vote
I think I have to change my vote from ELSA to EAB. Now that I have seen the -12 up close and personal, I think it would be nice to have some landing lights, strobe lights, autopilot and just maybe wheel fairings. I don't think I want all those cutouts in the panel and fuse positions to have nothing in them (plus the additional safety issues, convenience and looks )
Is it possible to complete the wing kit and then decide to install an autopilot?
Anyone have a guess how many lbs. these additions would add to the plane?
I think I have to change my vote from ELSA to EAB. Now that I have seen the -12 up close and personal, I think it would be nice to have some landing lights, strobe lights, autopilot and just maybe wheel fairings. I don't think I want all those cutouts in the panel and fuse positions to have nothing in them (plus the additional safety issues, convenience and looks
) Is it possible to complete the wing kit and then decide to install an autopilot?
Anyone have a guess how many lbs. these additions would add to the plane?
Buy, not build S-SLA
Yeah that's what I meant. Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible for me to edit the poll now. Perhaps an admin could.
Yeah that's what I meant. Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible for me to edit the poll now. Perhaps an admin could.
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jonbakerok
Well Known Member
I don't get it
Just out of curiosity, what's the advantage of E-LSA? I thought it just allowed the manufacturer to build more than 50% of the kit for you (obviously not relevant in this case). I think it also puts a bunch of restrictions on the builder -- like no plan deviations. What if you want wheel pants but Vans doesn't include them? I must be missing something.
Just out of curiosity, what's the advantage of E-LSA? I thought it just allowed the manufacturer to build more than 50% of the kit for you (obviously not relevant in this case). I think it also puts a bunch of restrictions on the builder -- like no plan deviations. What if you want wheel pants but Vans doesn't include them? I must be missing something.
Mike_ExpressCT
Well Known Member
Hopefully this helps:
E-LSA:
1. Anyone with an LSA Repairman/Inspection rating can preform condition inspections. (Anyone who has completed the 16 hour course for the inspection rating. The 120 hour maintenance rating course is not necessary unless you are working on S-LSA's for hire.)
2. The airplane must be an exact copy of the original for certification, unless the kit manufacturer gives written permission that the change the individual builder did is acceptable.
3. Once the plane is certified as an E-LSA, any change is acceptable AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT PUT THE PLANE OUT OF LSA PARAMETERS.
4. If an alteration does put the plane out of LSA parameters, the airworthiness certificate is void and it will be very difficult if not impossible to have it re-certified.
E-AB
1. The builder must prove that they built the "majority" of the kit (what's currently in debate by the FAA).
2. The builder may apply for the repairman's certificate, and once that is received, they and/or any A&P may do the condition inspection.
3. LSA compliance is optional. However, if the airplane does not meet the LSA requirements, it must be flown by at least a private pilot with a current medical.
jonbakerok
Well Known Member
I still don't get it
I still don't get it. If the kit you're building is not already designated E-LSA only, why would you want to restrict yourself to those limitations? Any old A&P can sign off an experimental, and with a Repairman Cert (which doesn't require 16 hours of training) you can even sign off your own. And if you happen to add a set of wheel pants that makes it go too fast, the plane doesn't become decertified, it just means you need a medical to fly it.
As far as Vans goes, the debate over the 51% rule is about quick-build kits. So far none is available for the 12. Trust me -- if your kit arrives as a box of pre-punched aluminum and a set of plans, no DAR who has ever built an airplane is going to question whether you met the 51% rule. Just keep a builders log.
There must be some subtle advantage I'm missing here, but since I'm just an interested bystander, I'll shut up now. I was just curious.
I still don't get it. If the kit you're building is not already designated E-LSA only, why would you want to restrict yourself to those limitations? Any old A&P can sign off an experimental, and with a Repairman Cert (which doesn't require 16 hours of training) you can even sign off your own. And if you happen to add a set of wheel pants that makes it go too fast, the plane doesn't become decertified, it just means you need a medical to fly it.
As far as Vans goes, the debate over the 51% rule is about quick-build kits. So far none is available for the 12. Trust me -- if your kit arrives as a box of pre-punched aluminum and a set of plans, no DAR who has ever built an airplane is going to question whether you met the 51% rule. Just keep a builders log.
There must be some subtle advantage I'm missing here, but since I'm just an interested bystander, I'll shut up now. I was just curious.
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Jon,
This longer than I intended but you did ask for a reason:
To me, the big advantage of E-LSA is that if I want to buy a completed aircraft from another builder, after a short course, I can do the annual and other maintenance. With a E-AB I would not be legal to do the annual on a aircraft I did not build, and be forced to have an A&P do these tasks. So if I was choosing between two identical aircraft, one E-LSA and the other E-AB, the E-LSA would be much more desirable because I could do the annual, repairs and maintenance and therefore the E-LSA would be worth more to me.
Now, if I was the builder and never interested in selling then this maintenance stuff becomes unimportant because I would have a repairman?s certificate.
But, if I were the builder and wanted my son to be able to take over the aircraft, and its maintenance, eventually, it would matter, because all he would have to do is take a short course if the aircraft was an E-LSA.
What do I give up going E-LSA? Mainly being able to modify the aircraft before certification. But, I trust Van to be smarter than me when it comes to aircraft design, so I would not want to change the basic design. Changing the engine is just too hard and will most likely reduce the useful load. So what exactly would I change; probably a cheaper instrument panel. But by not changing things, all of the following ?project slowers? are reduced or eliminated: the ?thinking time? required for each change, sourcing of non-standard parts, figuring out their placement, and insuring their compatibility. My limited experience with resto-mod car work indicates that changes/modification can be (and usually are) major time burners.
It is also my understanding that once certified, the E-LSA can be modified so long as it stays in the specifications of the LSA category.
So for no extra cost (ok maybe more because of the more expensive panel), I get an aircraft that should be easier and faster to build, easier to pass on to my scion, and possibly worth more when it is time to sell it.
What does the kit producer give up? It is a lot more work for them to get E-LSA certification.
If this is wrong please, someone correct me.
-Dave
This longer than I intended but you did ask for a reason:
To me, the big advantage of E-LSA is that if I want to buy a completed aircraft from another builder, after a short course, I can do the annual and other maintenance. With a E-AB I would not be legal to do the annual on a aircraft I did not build, and be forced to have an A&P do these tasks. So if I was choosing between two identical aircraft, one E-LSA and the other E-AB, the E-LSA would be much more desirable because I could do the annual, repairs and maintenance and therefore the E-LSA would be worth more to me.
Now, if I was the builder and never interested in selling then this maintenance stuff becomes unimportant because I would have a repairman?s certificate.
But, if I were the builder and wanted my son to be able to take over the aircraft, and its maintenance, eventually, it would matter, because all he would have to do is take a short course if the aircraft was an E-LSA.
What do I give up going E-LSA? Mainly being able to modify the aircraft before certification. But, I trust Van to be smarter than me when it comes to aircraft design, so I would not want to change the basic design. Changing the engine is just too hard and will most likely reduce the useful load. So what exactly would I change; probably a cheaper instrument panel. But by not changing things, all of the following ?project slowers? are reduced or eliminated: the ?thinking time? required for each change, sourcing of non-standard parts, figuring out their placement, and insuring their compatibility. My limited experience with resto-mod car work indicates that changes/modification can be (and usually are) major time burners.
It is also my understanding that once certified, the E-LSA can be modified so long as it stays in the specifications of the LSA category.
So for no extra cost (ok maybe more because of the more expensive panel), I get an aircraft that should be easier and faster to build, easier to pass on to my scion, and possibly worth more when it is time to sell it.
What does the kit producer give up? It is a lot more work for them to get E-LSA certification.
If this is wrong please, someone correct me.
-Dave
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Blastr42
Member
Dave, you are spot on with everything you said. As an LSA Repairman with a Maintenance Rating, and an aerospace engineer, I'm going that same route for the same reasons. Van's knows what they are doing and I trust their engineering. I also think that ELSA are going to be worth more come resale time. On a final note, if you build a 'straight 12' I bet the avionics, engine, etc. will come at a nice bulk discount price.
Jeff
Harvey L. Sorensen
Well Known Member
If at all possible it will be a tail drager
n5lp
fugio ergo sum
Done.
Additional letters for minimum message length.
Mike_ExpressCT
Well Known Member
Hi John,
I think the biggest problem currently is that Van's Aircraft isn't 100% sure that a builder of a -12 will be able to justify that they built the "majority" of the kit. Now, I agree with you that most FAA reps and DAR's shouldn't have a problem with a builder having completed more than 51% of the kit, but until the final ruling is done, there's no promises. It's apparently within the realm of possibility that, since the metal parts are already formed for you, the FAA may rule that you didn't actually fabricate (if that's the right word) the majority of the kit. If a builder certifies it E-LSA, then the advantages are that they can basically have the plane built for them (or many helpers) and also only have a 5 hour Phase 1. Also, with regards to the Repairman's certificate, that only applies to the builder of an E-AB. There is no Repairman's certificate for an E-LSA. If you want to complete condition inspection on one of those, you'll need either an A&P or an LSA inspection rating.
Does that help at all? My apologies if I'm not answering your questions...
Rabidsnipe
Active Member
Mike,
You should change your signature; the 12 is here!
You should change your signature; the 12 is here!
JerryG150
Well Known Member
Empty holes in panel?
Since Van's SLSA will have no autopilot, navigation lights or landing lights won't there be "empty or useless holes or areas" in panel where those switches and fuses are already indicated but not yet available?
I read somewhere that to deviate from the SLSA design you need to get a letter from the manufacturer stating its "A-OK", and that the change doesn't preclude it from remaning an LSA. Do you think I just need a letter from Van and then could build it as a ELSA with lights and and an autopilot and still be ELSA?
Since Van's SLSA will have no autopilot, navigation lights or landing lights won't there be "empty or useless holes or areas" in panel where those switches and fuses are already indicated but not yet available?
I read somewhere that to deviate from the SLSA design you need to get a letter from the manufacturer stating its "A-OK"
, and that the change doesn't preclude it from remaning an LSA. Do you think I just need a letter from Van and then could build it as a ELSA with lights and and an autopilot and still be ELSA?
InsideOut
Well Known Member
1. Any chance we could sweet-talk you into showing a couple of photos?
2. The second part answers Jerry's question about deburring.
Nope!
You are probably thinking of S-LSAs.
The only E-LSAs that can be used for hired training are the ones grandfathered in under 21.191(i)(1). And they can only do it until 1/31/2010. E-LSAs built from an E-LSA kit cannot be used for this.E-LSA can be rented to others or used in flight training ?
You are probably thinking of S-LSAs.
No jig needed
The wing does not require a jig. You only have to deburr the edges of the parts where they are cut out by the punch. The rivet holes are so clean that they do not appear to need deburring. They are final size. I'll post some pictures if I can figure out how to do it.
The wing does not require a jig. You only have to deburr the edges of the parts where they are cut out by the punch. The rivet holes are so clean that they do not appear to need deburring. They are final size. I'll post some pictures if I can figure out how to do it.
thanks Jim. just trying to get prepared...mine is number 17. one more question when you have the time...what is the spar like? is it already done or do you have to do the big hammer thing?
Pete
RV-12 Construction questions
I posted some pictures on Imageshack per Doug's suggestion. The link is: http://profile.imageshack.us/user/Jim_Cone/
I have no idea if this will work. Anyway, to answer some questions, here goes.
The spar is complete with all of the big rivets installed. All that is required is to pop rivet some rib supports and it is basically done. The rear spar takes a couple of hours to complete and is mostly pop riveted. There are flaperon supports that use some regular rivets that you have to squeeze, but so far a rivet gun is not required. By the way, I have an industrial quality aircraft pop rivet gun that I paid $179. for and I have one that I got at Harbour Freight for $39. Would you believe, I like the HF one better. The front stub spar also takes a couple of hours. Nothing is difficult and the plans are easy to follow if you read them very carefully. The instructions have very clear drawings that make it easy to understand. You only have to be careful that you do not rivet a place that says to leave open. You also have to be aware that the right and left wings are NOT the same. Because of the fact that one spar goes behind the other where it enters the fuselage, each wing is slightly different. You need to keep things that go on the right wing separate from the things that go on the left wing. I am trying to figure out a way to get the list of tools needed in a form that I can post. When I do, I will make a separate post. If you ordered a kit, you are going to love it.
I posted some pictures on Imageshack per Doug's suggestion. The link is: http://profile.imageshack.us/user/Jim_Cone/
I have no idea if this will work. Anyway, to answer some questions, here goes.
The spar is complete with all of the big rivets installed. All that is required is to pop rivet some rib supports and it is basically done. The rear spar takes a couple of hours to complete and is mostly pop riveted. There are flaperon supports that use some regular rivets that you have to squeeze, but so far a rivet gun is not required. By the way, I have an industrial quality aircraft pop rivet gun that I paid $179. for and I have one that I got at Harbour Freight for $39. Would you believe, I like the HF one better. The front stub spar also takes a couple of hours. Nothing is difficult and the plans are easy to follow if you read them very carefully. The instructions have very clear drawings that make it easy to understand. You only have to be careful that you do not rivet a place that says to leave open. You also have to be aware that the right and left wings are NOT the same. Because of the fact that one spar goes behind the other where it enters the fuselage, each wing is slightly different. You need to keep things that go on the right wing separate from the things that go on the left wing. I am trying to figure out a way to get the list of tools needed in a form that I can post. When I do, I will make a separate post. If you ordered a kit, you are going to love it.
The spars are 13 feet long. All of the rest of the parts will fit in the back of a pickup truck.
Alan Gilmore
Active Member
spar length
Thanks for the spar length info. I have a 2 car garage but my work bench at one end reduces the normal 20 feet length to 15 1/2. I was holding my breath, so it is nice to know that I have 2 1/2 feet to spare...Thanks.
Thanks for the spar length info. I have a 2 car garage but my work bench at one end reduces the normal 20 feet length to 15 1/2. I was holding my breath, so it is nice to know that I have 2 1/2 feet to spare...Thanks.
Newbie_Doo
Member
Hmmm. Works fine for me...
RudiGreyling
Well Known Member
Hi Jim,
Thanks, the pictures work for me...just a bit small, can you post higher resolution pictures, pretty please ???
Maybe should start your own topic here on the RV12 forum, RV12 # 1 ????
Are the main spars anodized? They do not look the ussual golden colour.
Thanks,
Rudi
Thanks, the pictures work for me...just a bit small, can you post higher resolution pictures, pretty please ???
Maybe should start your own topic here on the RV12 forum, RV12 # 1 ????
Are the main spars anodized? They do not look the ussual golden colour.
Thanks,
Rudi
The parts making up the spars are clear anodized. Because of this the look alum. colored, not gold.
BTW the photo link doesn't work for me either.
Newbie_Doo
Member
Hmmm...
I am unable to get more than a blank screen when clicking through the link to the imageshack profile. I am pretty computer savvy, so I am sure it must be a configuration issue on my end, although I have gone so far as to turn off all my firewalls, anti-virus, and even changed browsers (with the settings on low security). No dice. Neither IE nor Firefox will let me view anything more than a blank page.
I'll keep trying...
N_D
I am unable to get more than a blank screen when clicking through the link to the imageshack profile. I am pretty computer savvy, so I am sure it must be a configuration issue on my end, although I have gone so far as to turn off all my firewalls, anti-virus, and even changed browsers (with the settings on low security
). No dice. Neither IE nor Firefox will let me view anything more than a blank page. I'll keep trying...
N_D
Brooklands
I'm New Here
Very Strange,
I can't see Jim's pictures on my work PC - I get a blank screen like several others, but I can see them from my home PC. It must be a firewall or web cache problem.
GBLWY - please check you PMs.
Brooklands
I can't see Jim's pictures on my work PC - I get a blank screen like several others, but I can see them from my home PC. It must be a firewall or web cache problem.
GBLWY - please check you PMs.
Brooklands
Newbie_Doo
Member
I am now convinced it is an issue with Imageshack. I registered for an account with them and am able to see my own profile from a public computer. But, when I try Jim's page I get blanks. HTML code is just "body /body" with no data. I have tried several different PCs, on different networks, from different ISP's. No luck. It is likely a replication issue within their hosting facility.
<sigh>
I guess I'll have to wait until later to view...
Davepar
Well Known Member
I believe this is incorrect. Someone should ask Vans to be sure, but I think there will be an AP option for the RV-12.
There are switches and (apparently) circuits for an AP, nav lights, and landing lights on the Proof of Kit prototype, but I don't think those items will be installed on the S-LSA submission. Which would mean that E-LSA RV-12's won't have them either...unless...
Perhaps Mel (or others) can clarify, but I believe that the E-LSA can deviate from the S-LSA prototype so long as the kit manufacturer has approved the change in writing. What I'm hoping is that Van's will have a set of pre-approved options that builders can install and request a stock "E-LSA deviation form" (or whatever they call it). If not, I'll shoot for E-AB registration and add the AP on my own.
Since it looks like they're using the Dynon 180, adding an autopilot is a no-brainer.
By the way, how will they handle wing wiring with the detachable wings?
Phyrcooler
Well Known Member
Add 'em later?
I also thought that Mel confirmed here somewhere that you can add these things later to an E-LSA... as long as it doesn't take it out of the LSA parameters. So if Van doesn't approve them, you could build it as an E-LSA - prepped for the options you want... then plug them in after it receives it's cert. More of a pain of course... but an option.
If my memory serves me correctly... which it doesn't always do!
DJ
I also thought that Mel confirmed here somewhere that you can add these things later to an E-LSA... as long as it doesn't take it out of the LSA parameters. So if Van doesn't approve them, you could build it as an E-LSA - prepped for the options you want... then plug them in after it receives it's cert. More of a pain of course... but an option.
If my memory serves me correctly... which it doesn't always do!
DJ
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Possible Future Options
At SunNFun on Saturday, I asked Ken Kruegur of Vans if switches and empty fuse slots for lights, autopilot, and other stuff were for planned options. He smiled. Clearly indicating that was exactly why they were there. My guess is that right now they have more pressing things to work on, like getting LSA certification and getting the next section of the kit out and will get to these 'options' when they can.
Hole Size & Deburring
Ken also confirmed that the fastener holes are full size and most will not require deburring. When deburring is needed, it is called out in the plans.
Photo Links
Jim's photo link works for me, both at the office (pc running xp) and home (mac).
Vansaircraft - RV12 page - for some reason did not load the new RV412 photos, info sheet, or order form for a few days earlier this week on the office machine, BUT did at home. Then yesterday the stuff started to show up on the office machine. Computers, who knows?
Wing Plans
Lastly, Ken promised to put the wing instruction book on the company site for download in a week or two after he gets back from SunNFun
Special Thanks
Jim you are the man. Ten days and two wing skeletons ? wow! Thanks for the build photos. Please keep them coming.
-Dave
At SunNFun on Saturday, I asked Ken Kruegur of Vans if switches and empty fuse slots for lights, autopilot, and other stuff were for planned options. He smiled. Clearly indicating that was exactly why they were there. My guess is that right now they have more pressing things to work on, like getting LSA certification and getting the next section of the kit out and will get to these 'options' when they can.
Hole Size & Deburring
Ken also confirmed that the fastener holes are full size and most will not require deburring. When deburring is needed, it is called out in the plans.
Photo Links
Jim's photo link works for me, both at the office (pc running xp) and home (mac).
Vansaircraft - RV12 page - for some reason did not load the new RV412 photos, info sheet, or order form for a few days earlier this week on the office machine, BUT did at home. Then yesterday the stuff started to show up on the office machine. Computers, who knows?
Wing Plans
Lastly, Ken promised to put the wing instruction book on the company site for download in a week or two after he gets back from SunNFun
Special Thanks
Jim you are the man. Ten days and two wing skeletons ? wow! Thanks for the build photos. Please keep them coming.
-Dave
RV-12 construction photos
A number of people have said that they can't open the pictures and I don't have any idea why. It has to be an issue with the settings on the computers that can't open them because so many others can get them. I posted more pictures today. I have completed both wing structures and will start putting the skins on tomorrow. Perhaps one of the moderators can put them on my posts for those who are having trouble with imageshack.
A number of people have said that they can't open the pictures and I don't have any idea why. It has to be an issue with the settings on the computers that can't open them because so many others can get them. I posted more pictures today. I have completed both wing structures and will start putting the skins on tomorrow. Perhaps one of the moderators can put them on my posts for those who are having trouble with imageshack.
bigbill25
Well Known Member
