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Will You Buy an RV-12 Kit

Will You Buy an RV-12 Kit

  • Yes, on April 8th

    Votes: 15 12.8%

  • Yes, but I'll wait a little bit

    Votes: 49 41.9%

  • No

    Votes: 53 45.3%
  • Total voters
    117
R

Rabidsnipe

Active Member
Basically only because I want to know how much competition there might be as to who has the first kit, how long any "waiting lists" might be, etc. Will you buy an RV-12 kit (or whatever they offer) on April 8th?
 
Premature poll

It might have been wiser to wait to open this poll until after the price was announced, along with other missing information.
 
RV-12 S/N #1

I'm guessing the first RV-12 sold to someone in the aviation community would be S/N #2 or perhaps S/N #3 because Van's Aircraft site lists two (2) RV-12's on the "First Flights Page", but only one, N412RV, is THE S-LSA.
 
It will depend on pricing, how the kits are divided up, and how well I fit in the plane. (I'm really hoping it's at Sun'n'Fun so I can at least sit in it!) ;) Either way, I'm also thinking that I may wait until the E-LSA/E-AB debate is finished, but I certainly have the goal to be building by this Christmas!
 
DavidBurton said:
I have it on good authority that kit s/n 1 is spoken for by a mulitple repeat offender :)

DaveB
RV6
Click to expand...

I am that repeat offender and I have been promised kit number one. I even have a sketch of the plane made by competent athority with #1 on it, pinned to the wall of my hangar. When I took a demo ride with Van in the right seat, he told me that he really liked the plane and that he wanted one for himself. I told him the he had to wait until I got my kit and he just smiled. I plan to build my kit as an experimental amateur built even it the kit is not approved by the fed by the time I start on it. I am sure that I will end up building the major portion and qualify for that status. I am buying, reguardless of what the kit costs. It is that good!
 
E-LSA, maybe good for...

Something just hit me this afternoon about building as an E-LSA. Personally, if I end up building an RV-12 it will probably end up being a "starter kit" plane. I feel like I'm still pretty young and might eventually want to sell an RV-12. That's where building it as an E-LSA might come in handy.

As I understand it, an E-LSA can have condition inspections done by the owner if he holds the LSA Repairman: Inspection rating. To me that makes it a little more marketable than an EAB of the same type. Am I off base there?
 
Rabidsnipe said:
As I understand it, an E-LSA can have condition inspections done by the owner if he holds the LSA Repairman: Inspection rating. To me that makes it a little more marketable than an EAB of the same type. Am I off base there?
Click to expand...

From the way I understand it, you are absolutely correct. This is how I see it:

E-LSA:

1. Anyone with an LSA Repairman/Inspection rating can preform condition inspections. (Anyone who has completed the 16 hour course for the inspection rating. The 120 hour maintenance rating course is not necessary unless you are working on S-LSA's for hire.)
2. The airplane must be an exact copy of the original for certification, unless the kit manufacturer gives written permission that the change the individual builder did is acceptable.
3. Once the plane is certified as an E-LSA, any change is acceptable AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT PUT THE PLANE OUT OF LSA PARAMETERS.
4. (this one is a gray area) If an alteration does put the plane out of LSA parameters, the airworthiness certificate is void and it will be very difficult if not impossible to have it re-certified.
5. In theory, I could possibly see insurance being less. Has anyone looked into this?

E-AB
1. The builder must prove that they built the "majority" of the kit (what's currently in debate by the FAA).
2. The builder may apply for the repairman's certificate, and once that is received, they and/or any A&P may do the condition inspection.
3. LSA compliance is optional. However, if the airplane does not meet the LSA requirements, it must be flown by at least a private pilot with a current medical.

Am I missing anything?
 
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VERY Close

Mike_ExpressCT said:
From the way I understand it, you are absolutely correct. This is how I see it:

E-LSA:

1. Anyone with an LSA Repairman/Inspection rating can preform condition inspections. (Anyone who has completed the 16 hour course for the inspection rating. The 120 hour maintenance rating course is not necessary unless you are working on S-LSA's for hire.)
2. The airplane must be an exact copy of the original for certification, unless the kit manufacturer gives written permission that the change the individual builder did is acceptable.
3. Once the plane is certified as an E-LSA, any change is acceptable AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT PUT THE PLANE OUT OF LSA PARAMETERS.
4. (this one is a gray area) If an alteration does put the plane out of LSA parameters, the airworthiness certificate is void and it will be very difficult if not impossible to have it re-certified.
5. In theory, I could possibly see insurance being less. Has anyone looked into this?

E-AB
1. The builder must prove that they built the "majority" of the kit (what's currently in debate by the FAA).
2. The builder may apply for the repairman's certificate, and once that is received, they and/or any A&P may do the condition inspection.
3. LSA compliance is optional. However, if the airplane does not meet the LSA requirements, it must be flown by at least a private pilot with a current medical.

Am I missing anything?
Click to expand...
E-LSA 4. is not a gray area! It is a true statement.
 
E-LSA is just fine!

Rabidsnipe said:
Something just hit me this afternoon about building as an E-LSA. Personally, if I end up building an RV-12 it will probably end up being a "starter kit" plane. I feel like I'm still pretty young and might eventually want to sell an RV-12. That's where building it as an E-LSA might come in handy.

As I understand it, an E-LSA can have condition inspections done by the owner if he holds the LSA Repairman: Inspection rating. To me that makes it a little more marketable than an EAB of the same type.
Click to expand...
I am planning on the 12 as a "starter" plane as well. As I posted in the other thread - I think there are advantages to building it as an E-LSA. While I am not building it to sell, I do anticipate "moving up" in a few years. I think that looking at if from that light - the E-LSA will be more sell-able for reasons as you mention. With the optional lights and AP - I can live with all the other "predesignated choices" that Van's has made. Yes, you could "customize" it more as an E-AB, but really... I don't think you'll be much faster or efficient. So, maybe you install a brand 'X' EFIS instead of the Dynon? I'm not sold that it would be worth it to lost the saleability of it being an E-LSA.

Most new LSA's start in the mid $80's... and run upwards of $110,000! With a flock of new LSA pilots out there all dreaming of their own aircraft - I don't see a problem in being able to get my money back out of the -12 to reinvest in my next aircraft. I think that being able to do the condition inspection by the new owner opens you up to a whole added group of potential buyers.

Again... I am not advocating a build and sell plan. I only want to know there is a market for my plane when I DO move up in a couple years.

DJ
 
I plan on hopefully getting a kit in August (48th wedding anni. gift to myself :D). Was wondering what is considered the best color for "being seen" in our ever increasing congested sky. There are a lot of beautiful paint jobs on the RV fleet, but I want safety more than beauty.
 
We've done research on this.

Yellow is by far the most visible, but only bright yellow. The lighter shades of yellow are not that good. White follows, but again you have to be careful. Off whites and beige get less visible quickly. Black, red and darker colors are not very good. Sometimes the darker colors are good when observed from the ground, but from the air they are much harder to see.
 
Thanks Mel. I was thinking that yellow may be the best since most of the early ones were that color.
 
Mel said:
E-LSA 4. is not a gray area! It is a true statement.
Click to expand...


Sorry Mel...I meant a gray area for me. :eek: I wasn't sure if there's a possible way to have a new airworthiness certificate issued in a different category if the owner of a -12 makes a modification that bumps it out of LSA-compliance. (say, for example, a Rotax 914 instead of the 912). I guess people will have to be really careful on that one!! :eek:
 
Best Aircraft Color

Why yellow?

Yellow, most commonly used in highlighters is the most visible color to the human eye. The reason has to do with the wavelengths of color. Visible light ranges from red, the color with the longest wavelength, through orange, yellow, green, blue, and indigo to violet, the color with the shortest wavelength. Yellow and green are right in the middle of the spectrum's wavelengths; therefore, our eyes are most sensitive to these colors making them the easiest to see.

An interesting fact about aircraft color is that the US Air Force found out that the best visible color when flying daytime is ... black. Actually, it makes sense, what you see mostly in the sky is whitish, isn't it?

Contrast with background.
In determining visibility, the color of an aircraft is less important than the contrast of the
aircraft with its background. Contrast is the difference between the brightness of a target and
the brightness of its background and is one of the major determinants of detect ability (Andrews
1977, Duntley 1964). The paint scheme which will maximize the contrast of the aircraft with its
background depends of course, upon the luminance of the background. A dark aircraft will be
seen best against a light background, such as bright sky, while a light colored aircraft will be
most conspicuous against a dull background such as a forest.

Ronald
 
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rvsteijn said:
Why yellow?

Yellow, most commonly used in highlighters is the most visible color to the human eye. The reason has to do with the wavelengths of color. Visible light ranges from red, the color with the longest wavelength, through orange, yellow, green, blue, and indigo to violet, the color with the shortest wavelength. Yellow and green are right in the middle of the spectrum's wavelengths; therefore, our eyes are most sensitive to these colors making them the easiest to see.

An interesting fact about aircraft color is that the US Air Force found out that the best visible color when flying daytime is ... black. Actually, it makes sense, what you see mostly in the sky is whitish, isn't it?

Contrast with background.
In determining visibility, the color of an aircraft is less important than the contrast of the
aircraft with its background. Contrast is the difference between the brightness of a target and
the brightness of its background and is one of the major determinants of detect ability (Andrews
1977, Duntley 1964). The paint scheme which will maximize the contrast of the aircraft with its
background depends of course, upon the luminance of the background. A dark aircraft will be
seen best against a light background, such as bright sky, while a light colored aircraft will be
most conspicuous against a dull background such as a forest.

Ronald
Click to expand...

Hmmmmm, makes one wonder why the U2, SR71, B2, and F117 are all black.
 
...and these airplanes fly their missions at night which fits the contrast / background story.
Invisible by radar and invisible by the naked eye ;)

Ronald
 
rvsteijn said:
...and these airplanes fly their missions at night which fits the contrast / background story.
Invisible by radar and invisible by the naked eye ;)

Ronald
Click to expand...

We flew our U2s and SRs during the day a lot of the time. We also had some B-52s that were black that flew daylight missions. The purpose of my question is that I want to be seen in and around the traffic pattern. (elsewhere also of course)
 
Green light

I got the nod from the better half to go to Oshkosh and add my name to the list for a 12 kit.

What I like:

1. Vans aircraft (known value and company intergrity)
2. Removeable wings (hangars are in short supply at our local airport)
3. LSA (will presumably fly it into retirement and beyond)
4. Forward seating and awesome visibility
5. Pulled rivets (for ease of assembly even solo)

Wish list

1. E-AB status (just for the option of customizing the panel/interior. I'm anticipating that once the FAA returns to approving kits this will be one of them)
2. Wheel Pants (its looks unfinished without them.)
3. Gas tank (yes I know it has one, but I was hoping for a more elegent and less conspicuous solution than a welded aluminum box in the baggage area. Perhaps once it reachs E-AB status someone will come up with a snazzier solution. Not a show stopper for me but it could be improved upon if nothing else for appearance sake).

Now all I have to do is plan my trip to Oshkosh and bring my check book.

Frank
 
FrankS said:
"3. Gas tank (yes I know it has one, but I was hoping for a more elegent and less conspicuous solution than a welded aluminum box in the baggage area. Perhaps once it reachs E-AB status someone will come up with a snazzier solution. Frank
Click to expand...

I hope someone supplies a nice rotomolded HDPE version...
 
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