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How do you start your EI engine?

N941WR

Legacy Member
It has taken me a while to figure out the best way to start my carburetored electronic ignition engine.

How are the rest of you starting your engines?

When cold, I start mine using the following technique:
Turn on the master
Turn on the boost pump
Mixture full rich
Pump the throttle once
Pull the mixture to idle cut off
Turn off the boost pump
Turn off the master
Turn the prop by hand through eight compression strokes

Get in and buckle up. (When the engine is warm, I use the following technique.)
P-mags on
Mixture full rich
Throttle closed
Boost pump on
Press the starter
Advance throttle until the engine catches.

PS. No primer is installed
 
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O320, carb, mag, EI, wood prop

Mixture rich
Throttle in 1/4 inch
Master on
Mag on
EI on
Boost on
Primer on for 3 sec (2 times in cold weather, but not needed if engine is warm)
Mash the starter

Works every time! Of course, cold weather in Georgia is about 40 deg!

I never need to pump the throttle while cranking.
I have read about, but never tried, priming the cylinders then waiting a few minutes for the fuel to vaporize before attempting to start. It is supposed to make cold starts easier.
 
See other thread on pumping the throttle to decide on this.

Here is what I do.

1.) Mixture Rich
2.) Throttle to 1/2 inch (equal to 1000rpm setting when you shut down). DO NOT PUMP the throttle in my opinion, it can cause fires and has done so many times.
3.) Boost pump on for 2 seconds, then off.
4.) Pump the primer 4 times (assuming you have a primer line on three cylinders)
2.) Electronic Ignitions On
3.) Master and Alt on
4.)Engage the starter. If it does not fire with 3-5 rotations, then start checking the induction system for leaks.

I have two lightspeed Plasma II's and mine starts first time every time without ever pumping the throttle.

H.
 
Simple start

Master on
emags on
throttle & mixture full in
fuel pump for 10 seconds
throttle out
Pump throttle once (twice if it near freezing)
push the starter

lean once its running


Rarely does the prop make 2 fulls rev before starting

If the motor is warm I skip the prime with the throttle
 
I would change one thing for sure

It has taken me a while to figure out the best way to start my carburetored electronic ignition engine.

How are the rest of you starting your engines?

When cold, I start mine using the following technique:
Turn on the master
Turn on the boost pump
Mixture full rich
Pump the throttle once
Turn off the boost pump
Turn off the master
Turn the prop by hand through eight compression strokes

Get in and buckle up. (When the engine is warm, I use the following technique.)
P-mags on
Mixture full rich
Throttle closed
Boost pump on
Press the starter
Advance throttle until the engine catches.

PS. No primer is installed
There is a long and good thread on throttle pumping with carbs and no primer. You can pump while cranking.

Turning the prop by hand? That is not needed in my opinion. Do you have a combo mag/ign/starter key switch or separate starter button. Can you turn the engine with the starter and IGN off? The hand prop deal was with radials that would collect oil in the bottom jugs and could hydraulic the rod, aka bend it.

Also mixture rich is not needed to prime with the throttle I believe. You can pump the throttle either way.

Do you leave the mixture rich and hand turning the prop? :eek: What if one of the ignitions are hot? Just saying. Of course always treat the prop as live and I would not turn the prop with the mixture rich! :eek:

There is nothing wrong with your technique, but it seems busy. Less is more. I guess I would skip the getting out and hand turning the prop over. If you feel you MUST do it, than just do it during preflight, before you get in or pump the throttle (of course checking Ign and mixture are safe first). You are not drawing in the fuel you pumped into the throttle and airbox when you hand turn the prop.

IF ITS COLD, I WOULD WAIT A LITTLE TIME BEFORE (PUMP) PRIME AND CRANK. It give the fuel a little time to vapor off. While you wait you can get you belts on, and also you can give it pump if needed while cranking.

Search for that carb prime pump thread, it's worth a read.
 
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George,

I have checked all the treads and tried a number of different things until I settled on the above.

I would agree with your warning, if I was using traditional magnetos, but I'm not so the risk is minimal. Thus this tread in the EI list.

Regarding propping with the starter, when it is cold, I prefer to turn the engine over by hand. Just a throw back to turning radials over by hand.

There is almost no chance of my P-mags firing in the scenario I described. To feed power to my duel P-mags the Master and the P-mag switches have to be on. Thus double protection, the mag switches and the master. The P-mags will not fire w/o electricity applied and my switch setup removes power and grounds them, another double protection. Then add to that internal P-mag function which keeps them from firing until they see three revelations at a set speed.

All in all, this is about as safe as it can get. Still, I treat the prop like a loaded gun. Every year, a number of people get shot by "unloaded guns" and I don?t want to be one of them.

Oh, and yes, I do pull the mixture back when hand propping.

As always, thanks for the thoughtful and extensive input, I'm still learning how to live with this engine, carb, ignition combination.
 
Almost? ha ha

George, There is almost no chance of my P-mags firing in the scenario I described.
Almost? :rolleyes: (sounds pretty safe as you discribe)
Still, I treat the prop like a loaded gun. Every year, a number of people get shot by "unloaded guns" and I don’t want to be one of them. Oh, and yes, I do pull the mixture back when hand propping.
Right on.
Regarding propping with the starter, when it is cold, I prefer to turn the engine over by hand. Just a throw back to turning radials over by hand.
I can't think of one AFM that tells you to do that, except the aforementioned radials, but it's cool, does no harm. Really there is no benefit pulling the blades I can think of, except you are doing a poor man's compression test and a mag impulse coupler check (clack). I was asked to ferry a plane. It was "rough". I pulled the prop and on the 4th blade, there was no resistance. Hummm. Honestly I don't think you're helping the engine much, as say pre-heating the oil / engine or a pre-oiler, in my opinion, but if it makes you happy, then DO IT! :D
As always, thanks for the thoughtful and extensive input, I'm still learning how to live with this engine, carb, ignition combination.
Is it hard to start? Oh yes you have to hold your mouth just right. :D PS don't listen to Yukon. (I'm kidding). A primer is nice, but if you live in moderate climate, carb priming is doable.
 
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...you are doing a poor man's compression test and a mag impulse coupler check (clack)...
The compression test is exactly why I do it. With the old engine I have, it gives me a warm fuzzy to feel and hear each cylinder do its thing twice. As for the mag impulse, doesn't happen with the P-mags. You know, electronics and all. Come on over to the dark side George, the Kool-aid is really good!

Is it hard to start? Oh yes you have to hold your mouth just right. :D PS don't listen to Yukon. (I'm kidding). A primer is nice, but if you live in moderate climate, carb priming is doable.
On one cold (below freezing) morning it didn't want to fire, not sure why. Other than that I was giving it too much fuel and it was kicking back. The technique described above eliminates both the kick back issue and the engine's reluctance to start.

As I said, the P-mags don't fire until after three revolutions and then it fires on both the compression and exhaust strokes at the same time, causing some kick back when there is excessive amounts of fuel in intake.

Less pumping of the throttle seems to have solved that for me.

I have no desire to install a primer, now that I have figured out how to start this engine with its unique combination of carburetor and electronic ignition.
 
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To feed power to my duel P-mags the Master and the P-mag switches have to be on.

So if you had to shut off your master in flight due to panel smoke or other emergency, you would be shutting off part of your ignition?
 
N941WR...you are scaring the heck out of me....I know nothing about EI but have had personal experience with turning props through by hand.
I knew a person who was killed by a prop and another who was very lucky to only have about 200 stitches.
I dont know the exact sequence you need to go through to get the mags hot....but they can be made hot...and are made hot every flight.
There are more failure modes than just mechanical and electrical. Most of us who have done a gear up landing...and I did say us....had no failure other than the gray thing that is susposed to reside between our ears.
What if you forget to turn off the mag electrical switch when you put the plane up?????and a wire is broken...and...Kids at a fly-in turn on a switch....you get the picture. I guess I am feeling the need to just give out the warning and I dont do that often...do as you please.
Be safe.

Dave62 (Swift driver)
 
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Pull through by hand?

Hey Bill, I'll second Dave62's concern about pulling props through by hand. Geez, I have personally seen the aftermath of many hand propping accidents, including one right in front of my hangar that creamed the airplane next door to me, came full bore right through the locked hanger door! Here is what I do for my PA-12 which has the same engine you have, an 0-290. I start on the left (impulse coupled) mag, full rich, start cranking, and pump the throttle once AS I CRANK. Starts right away. I use this technique summer/winter/day/night except I don't pump the throttle if the engine is warm from a recent shutdown. I have no primer, don't need one. I never move the prop unless a qualified pilot is holding the brakes (test that first, push on the prop hub) or it is impossible for the engine to fire (spark plugs out). My father was nearly whacked pulling a prop through by hand. It wasn't supposed to fire. So was a cropduster buddy of mine, same deal, wasn't supposed to fire. I once knew a guy who had been hit on the head by a prop before I met him. He was a fanatic about props, as you might imagine, and some of that rubbed off me, I guess. Just looking out for you, man, be safe. Steve
 
So if you had to shut off your master in flight due to panel smoke or other emergency, you would be shutting off part of your ignition?
You can turn the master of in flight and the P-mags will continue to run on internal power. No other action is required. That is the beauty of the things. They have to be grounded to kill them, turning off the master will do nothing. The sequence and comments above are for starting only. The 113's that I have do not self power below around 800 RPM.


N941WR...you are scaring the heck out of me....
Hey Bill, I'll second Dave62's concern about pulling props through by hand.
Guys, read the thread. We are talking about electronic ignitions, not magnetos. I described above how and and why the P-mags will not fire when hand propping. Can't happen. Ok, shouldn't happen. Also, I have been trained on the art of hand propping (and hand cranking an old Stearman :D), you get that when you fly J-3's, T-Craft's, Champ's, etc. As I said above, I approach all props as if they are loaded guns and could fire at any time. It down right frightens me anytime I see someone just rest a hand on a prop tip... Enough is enough...

Can we get back to the subject at hand?

How do those of you with ELECTRONIC IGNITIONs start your planes?
 
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As I said above, I approach all props as if they are loaded guns and could fire at any time. It down right frightens me anytime I see someone just rest a hand on a prop tip... Enough is enough...

Can we get back to the subject at hand?

How do those of you with ELECTRONIC IGNITIONs start your planes?

Folks, this is Bills thread, please honor his request----enough about proping, O.K..

Or, start a "Hand Proping" thread.

Please??
 
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EI starting

My Lancair has an O-235L2C with 9.7:1 pistons, making it basically an O-235 F or G of 125HP. I have dual Plasma Is. I made my own pan from carbon fiber and the carb is on the back of the pan where the triangular pan extension used to be rather than underneath. It feeds into a 90 deg turn into fiberglass induction tubes in the top of the pan that divide in two then each of these divides in two to go to the cylinders. Right above the carb in the 90 I put a fitting that has two small jets that point toward the forward two crotches where the two tubes divide into four. That jet is connected to my primer, so that when I prime, I get two streams of fuel aimed at the crotches which hopefully divides equally into all four tubes. On a cold 40F-50F morning I give it two shots of primer, and give it enough throttle, about an inch, so that it starts running at about 1300 rpm; I also leave the primer open so that it will suck additional fuel through it for the first few seconds, then close it. If it hasn't run for a while I may even give it one or two more primer shots when it first starts, and put the carb heat on. It runs rough at first, I think, because of the fiberglass absorbing the fuel initially. After about 20-30 seconds it is running smoothly and I decrease rpm to about 700-800 and lean the mixture for best rpm. After running the engine for a few minutes, such as taxi-ing over to the fuel pump and gassing up, the engine starts immediately at minimum throttle setting. The same goes for when I fly somewhere and the plane sits for less than an hour; it starts immediately without prime or advancing the throttle. With the Plasmas there is a 2-4 second delay when the engine first starts that occurs when the unit switches from TDC firing to advance firing after the rpm passes 400. This is seen as a noticeable rpm increase.
 
One E-Mag, one Slick, hope that qualifies. O-320 w/carb. Below about 20 degrees I pre-heat, although I did start once at 10. Don't think it is especially good on the engine to start it that cold.

Between 20 and 30:
Master on
FP on until the pressure comes up
Electric primer for about 3 seconds.
Wait for 30 seconds-one minute for the fuel to vaporize
One pump of the throttle
Back to "cracked" and start. Another pump while cranking if it doesn't fire in a couple of turns.

Above 30 I just give it one pump and go. Starts right up.

Bob Kelly
 
Ye doth protest too much

Bill and Mike: I don't think your thread has been hijacked. The question asked was how others start their engines. I don't think EI makes any procedural difference and in fact EI should allow your engine to start more easily than one equipped with mags. Bill, you are priming your engine by pulling it through by hand after using the carburetor accelerator pump to shoot fuel into the induction system. I think pulling the prop through by hand is unnecessary and hazardous unless you have a qualified pilot at the controls holding the brakes, and I gave you examples from my personal experience to back that statement up. Why not crank the engine with the electric starter while pumping the throttle, like I do? It works for me and my Slick mags, and has for many years. In any event, your EI engine should be easier to start than mine because your ignition delivers a more energetic spark. Pumping the throttle with the engine at rest allows fuel to run down into the air filter and perhaps into the cowl. If the engine is cranking the flow of induction air will help carry the fuel into the cylinders where it is needed. I think the FAA has an old advisory circular warning of the dangers of cowl and induction fires due to priming in cold weather. The collected fuel in the cowling can be ignited by a backfire, very possible from a lean mixture. I've seen that, too. I think all this is worth pointing out since this thread will be read by pilots with less experience than you or me. I do not share your faith that it is impossible for the EI to malfunction and fire. You probably know this, but some airports have regulations prohibiting pulling an engine through by hand. Sorry if this post seems overly pedantic, but for the sake of safety it needs to be said.
Best wishes for easy starting, Steve
 
So what is the answer?

Really, I think the answer is you do nothing different. :D There is no difference between EI and magnetos as far as start procedures, IMHO, with some caveats, in general. To the pilot of a factory plane you turn the key. Many experimentals have separate ignition and start switches, so there is some switch selection choices depending on your set-up.

The stuff about priming, pulling props and throttle stuff is extraneous to the bottom line.

EI should make starting easier. The down side is the electrical power requirement. Magneto's use no outside power (usually). That is the big diff.

All the EI systems I know of: Light Speed, Emag and Electroair, all go to zero degree timing advance during start, which is the advance you must/should have to safely start. You just have to turn the EI on and crank. Once started turn the standard mechanical magneto on. Done!

The EI's I know of, need battery power to get started and continue to run. The exception is the "P-mag" EI, which will continue to run after starting, with out battery power, but it needs juice to get going like all EI's, as far as I know. (Some magnetos use a "vibrator" or "Shower Of Sparks" to get started, which does require battery power. Typical magnetos used on the Lycs we install in RV's don't use shower of spark starting. We have an impulse couple magneto, which is a mechanical method to get a hotter retarded spark for start.)

(Technical content warning! Impulse magnetos have extra features for starting, retarding advance and giving more spark during start only. Most engines have one impulse magneto, the one that goes CLACK! when you pull the engine though. Once started the impulse magneto goes back to being like a regular magneto. With a key ignition switch, the non-impulse magneto is automatically cut out during start. If you tried to start with the non-impulse magneto, you could get big kick-backs because the timing is still at 25 BTDC, or it just won't start. Impulse magnetos do all their start magic mechanically with springs and flyweights. EI do their magic with timing with electronics and sensing RPM and/or MAP.)

If you have one EI and one impulse magneto, you can start with either. However most use the EI to start and using both during start is probably not a good idea, IMHO. Most EI manufacturer's suggest you start on the EI and leave the magneto off. The EI has more spark power and should make starting easier. If you have a dead battery, no electrical power of any kind you could use the impulse magneto to get started. This means a hand prop start, no thanks. I'll hand prop a C65 or C85 on a Cub, but not a high compression bigger displacement Lyc. Just call me chicken. I'm personally afraid of hand prop larger engines. I just avoid it. Some times EI can miss fire during start with low voltage. If that is the case you could use the magneto to get going.

A single EI is usually paired with the impulse magneto. It's an odd ball combo to keep the non-impulse magneto with an EI, but there is nothing stopping you from doing it. If you do this, definitely leave the magneto off for start. Use the EI. Starting with a non impulse magneto can/will cause bad kick-backs, which break things. On the plus side, a non-impulse magnetos are simpler, probably more reliable and lighter than their impulse magneto cousins. The mechanical parts of the "impulse" can bugger up sometimes. The draw back is at times, starting with an EI is NOT desirable, so keep the impulse magneto. (see next par)

There are starting issues with some EI's. EI can miss fire when the voltage gets too low during start. The starter draws the voltage down and the EI fires erratically, which can cause kick backs or difficult starts. This might be a good reason to use the regular impulse magneto if you have one, verse the EI, if you are having this issue. The voltage problem is less likely to happen with a good strong battery and a starter that uses less power. Permanent magnet starters tend be the lower cost units and work OK, but they are also power hogs, which can aggravate the EI starting voltage issue. The new top of the line Skytec starter has much much lower power needs than their original PM unit, which they still sell. The more efficient lower draw starters keeps the voltage up and avoids or minimizes low voltage issues with EI.

If you have two EI, than I guess starting with both ON is the way to go. Or I suppose leaving one off saves some power for cranking the starter. Which one? Top/bottom, left right? It does not matter, but try it, see if there is a difference.

If you have two EI's with a dead battery, you're out of luck. Besides you should NEVER fly with a dead battery you jump or hand prop. It's best to spend 45 minutes and give the battery at least a good 75% partial charge with a 10 amp charger before flying. Using you alternator alone to charge a totally dead battery is a good way to fry the alternator, in my opinion. One observation. a dead battery demands much more power to charge over a longer period after starting. With extra drain charging the battery, added to the normal load, the alternator can overheat. Usually a strong battery recovers fully within minutes after starting and never demands as much as a dead battery.
 
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If you have two EI, than I guess starting with both ON is the way to go. Or I suppose leaving one off saves some power for cranking the starter. Which one? Top/bottom, left right? It does not matter, but try it, see if there is a difference.

George:

Good analysis/write up. Just some added data points on E-mags:

1. The highest power usage during the start cycle is .32 amps each at 200 rpm then it drops to .16 amps per side at 300 rpm then slowly climbs to .31 amps at 1000 rpm. Not much of a concern I would think. If .32 amps interferes with your starter, you likely have bigger fish to fry.

2. E-mag and some others use a wasted spark process which has cause some problems with kick backs. E-mag has built in protection against kick back caused from the power dip resulting from starter in-rush. E-mags have a start circuit which dissables the spark if bus voltage dips (it drops out after start).

3. EI doesn't use much juice. As stated above, you can start with an E-mag with only .32 amps. In a traditional electrical system, as long as you have enough power to close the master contact, you probably have sufficient power to hand prop the engine successfully. If you have an e-bus that bypasses the master contactor, you can hand prop as long as you have enough power to get you the .32 amps at the E-mag. If you are using 1 or 2 P-mags, the engine will continue to run above 850-900 rpm on internal power.

4. E-mag does have a hand prop process but it's slightly more complicated than with traditional mags. You would want to put it on a check list in your POH.

Jekyll
 
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Just recently I had to start my Hi-comp O-235 with a battery run down enough not to turn the engine over. With a friend at the throttle and on the brakes, the engine started immediately, and yes, I have a three-blade prop which didn't bite me. I used to fly J-3s which I hand started myself, and I worked at a seaplane base where I had to start the J-3s, Champs, and Taylorcrafts.The LSE Plasma will supply its high voltage with only 5V or 6V on the buss. It only draws about 200mA each when the engine isn't running. It only takes 6mS to charge up the capacitor so before you turn your start switch the ignition can fire the plugs. If your battery is severely run down, keep the engine rpm low initially after start so as not to charge the battery at too high a current. Run the engine at succeedingly higher rpm while monitoring the charge current. When it has dropped to 5A-10A at the highest static rpm you are probably safe to fly.
 
Northern California, mild temps.
Pump throtle once
crack throttle 1/4"
master/mags on
crank engine.

Catches in a few blades every time.
Tom RV3
carb/lightspeed
 
Just like Tom except I am in Houston. I have used the same technique at OAT of 38 degrees F in North Carolina (I don't think the plane appreciated anything but the OAT:)). Two P-Mags, Carb, O-320 (160 HP) and, like Tom, always starts on the first blade or two every time.

Northern California, mild temps.
Pump throtle once
crack throttle 1/4"
master/mags on
crank engine.

Catches in a few blades every time.
Tom RV3
carb/lightspeed
 
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