Ethanol coming Nov. 1!

Clackamas, Multnomah & Wash. counties require 10% ethanol in the gas Nov. 1-Feb 28. Stations have to meet the 10% standard on Nov. 1, so they start getting deliveries with alcohol before the end of Oct. So if you fly with autogas, stock up now! This weekend would not be too early.

Or fill your jugs whenever you visit Van's for a parts pickup, but be sure to test it. I bought some in Woodburn a couple years ago that was supposed to be alcohol free, & it sure was--they didn't charge me extra for the alcohol that was in the gas.

R Scott.RV-9A Fuselage
'41 Interstate Cadet

Sometimes the premium gas moves slower than the regular. You could end up with gas a month old when purchased. If you then store it for 4 more months, you could end up with gas you do not really want to burn in your acft.

asav8tor said:

Sometimes the premium gas moves slower than the regular. You could end up with gas a month old when purchased. If you then store it for 4 more months, you could end up with gas you do not really want to burn in your acft.

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Some years back AOPA or EAA, I don't remember which had an article about this. They stated that auto fuel should be stable for one year and aviation fuel for two. I wouldn't worry about this.

What I would do is contact the EAA and FAA, I thought there was a ruling that banned the requirement to use ethanol in all auto fuel because of the impact to aviation. I could be wrong here, so please correct me if that is the case.

N941WR said:

Some years back AOPA or EAA, I don't remember which had an article about this. They stated that auto fuel should be stable for one year and aviation fuel for two. I wouldn't worry about this.

What I would do is contact the EAA and FAA, I thought there was a ruling that banned the requirement to use ethanol in all auto fuel because of the impact to aviation. I could be wrong here, so please correct me if that is the case.

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http://www.aviationfuel.org/autogas/articles/What is the shelf life of avgas_.pdf

Ethanol rip-off & lies OR future miracle fuel?

If you read what Brazil did (using sugar) to make Ethanol, it has little application to the USA, which uses corn.

In Brazil where sugar cane is used, the yield is higher, and conversion to ethanol is MUCH more energy efficient than corn. In the USA corn is typically used which requires high land use (notice cost of cereals), and "energy balance" for ethanol is barely positive. Energy balance is the energy put into making ethanol verses a gallon of ethanol energy output. It takes almost as much energy to make ethanol from corn as you get out, as low as a 1.25 ratio! Basically it cost more energy to make ethanol with corn than it produces. Also in the engine, ethanol fuel economy is less than gas, so the net result of energy conservation is pretty lousy (at this time). At this time its an "Alternative" fuel, but not a practical one, at least the way the USA is going at it. Still down the road new technology may improve all of the math and make it viable. However the hype is a little optimistic to say the least.

Sugar is more efficient, but of course fossil fuels are better still. Research into new crops and processes should be looked at, but before you get sold on it, do some serious research. My feeling is Corn farmers and their lobbyist are all for it, CHAA-CHING$$$.


I'm not totally down on ethanol, but right now some of the propaganda is being driven by the Agriculture lobbyist. I want to develop all alternative energy: atomic power, solar, wind, hydrogen, fuel cells, hybrid-elec and even ethanol. I just want it to be driven by technology, science and sound economy, not greed and profit by powerful lobbyist.

To realize higher precentage of ethanol/gas blends, cars would require massive changes and cold start systems for anything over E85 (85%). If we just conserve and industry would make more fuel efficient vehicles, while developing ALL the alternatives (no single magic bullet), we will be better off in 18 years than all the ethanol we could make. However add into the mix ethanol and all other solutions, we could be off of foreign oil, which is my main issue. You want to hurt terrorist, stop buying their oil.

To answer the title question, its neither. Its just what it is, NO FREE LUNCH. Corn is a questionable crop to make fuel, but with new processes and crop/base materials who knows. Its going to be a multi-solution of all technologies and the dreaded "Conservation" of energy. Not in our life times or may be our kids or grand kids or great grand kids lives, but the day people don't unlimited gas, at any price, is coming. The experts have shown that we are at a tipping point, production and oil supplies have peaked and will only drop in the future, as usage is exponentially going up. It does not take advance math to see supply going down, demand going up is going to be a problem.

When the oligarchy's $100M yachts need to be torn down to replace fuel tanks, lines, etc., you'll see a backlash against ethanol.

It's as bad for the boaters as it is for aviation.

Looks like

I may be doing some tests with E10 (manely watered down gas).

So far I have not heard one good argument for not using it in an airplane motor. At least not with my AFP system which is compatible with 100% according to Don Rivera.

The test i have to do is to see what happens if the ethanol has absorbed as much water as it can, then is the temp drops to below freezing and the altitude incresed.

If the water (ice) drops out of solution under these conditions then E10 gas maybe a no-no or somewhat limited.

Yes we have all seen the "forbidden" notice that Superior puts on its use of engines with ethanol laced fuel but I have not heard exactly why?

If anyone can shed some real light on this (that means not regurgitating the same old wives tales) I'd really like to know.

So far I have run 92oct unleaded (no alcohol) for about 50 hours at a max advance or 34 degrees and it seems to run the same as 100LL either ROP or LOP....

Now what happens with E10?

Frank

Mogas looses 2-3 octant points per 30 days it sits. I never let mogas that is going into my airplane sit for more than 30 days, and I start out with Shell 92 octane premium.


Letting gas sit a year is a disaster waiting to happen.

Yes we have all seen the "forbidden" notice that Superior puts on its use of engines with ethanol laced fuel but I have not heard exactly why?

If anyone can shed some real light on this (that means not regurgitating the same old wives tales) I'd really like to know.

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I was told by Superior (at their build school), that the reason they prohibit ethanol laced fuel, is that they haven't tested it in their engines. With the disappearance of ethanol-free mogas, they might be more inclined to do those tests. Especially if enough people request it.

Hope this helps,

gmcjetpilot said:

If you read what Brazil did (using sugar) to make Ethanol, it has little application to the USA, which uses corn.

...
However the hype is a little optimistic to say the least.
...
My feeling is Corn farmers and their lobbyist are all for it, CHAA-CHING$$$.
...
It does not take advance math to see supply going down, demand going up is going to be a problem.

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RANT ON

Yes, corn-based Ethanol gasoline in the US is a solution in search of a problem. While it is "carbon neutral" to make and burn EtOH from corn (i.e., it no change in total CO2 output), that really isn't the issue. In terms of vehicles, we have the combined problems of fuel efficiency continuing to be flat or decrease, population going up, and miles driven (VMT, or vehicles miles traveled) per person going up. So, gasoline demand is going to continue to rise. What good is it to burn EtOH gasoline in your 12 mpg Surburban? If you want to drive one, great, this is America and you have a choice, but it's sure not going to do anything about all that oil we have to import.

As I am fond of saying, none of our environmental problems are technical; they are all political.
RANT OFF

Ok, now remember that EtOH gasoline in Oregon was originally put in place to reduce emissions of CO. Several areas in the Willamette Valley did not meet the federal CO air quality standard, and the EtOH gasoline was one of the solutions approved by the Feds (MTBE was the other, which is a technically better solution).

I've been gone from Oregon for a while so I don't know if the EtOH gas is new this year or just back as usual for the season. I suspect the later.

TODR

MTBE fuel might be still available in premium gasoline

Just a comment which may, or may not apply to your area. We have had a provincial legislation this year dictating the use of ethanol in gasoline as well. I think it's 5%.

What we found though, is that you can find 0% ethanol in the hi-octane gasoline, and ethanol in the lower octane gasolines. The 5% that is dictated is an average over all gasoline sales. Hi octance sales are low, so they just 'up' the regural gas ethanol percentage a little to compensate. Costs us about $.40 more per gallon over regular. Still worthwhile.

My friend's C-150 has a mogas STC, and loves sipping mogas. We're just careful using it in spring, as warmer weather and winter gas may increase chances of vapor-lock. Making sure we have fresh gas, we've had no problems.

I would imagine that the 10% in your state is an average for all gasoline sold as well. Just do an ethanol test first to confirm. I do it on every purchase.

A Shell employee once revealed that they were not putting ethanol in their premium gasoline (at least, in Canada). The gas station near our airport happens to be a Shell.

Hope this helps.

This started several years ago because the area failed to meet clean air standards in the winter and ethanol as an oxygenator was seen as the solution. As cars have become cleaner burning, it was determined about 2 years ago that the area could meet the clean air standards without ethanol and a proposal was made to eliminate the requirement.

The environmentalist community howled, and this being Oregon, the environmentalist view prevailed, leaving the 3 county area needlessly using ethanol from November thru February.

As with many things, there are unintended consequences. Gas for my 2 cycle engines and my Briggs & Stratton engines is supposed to be ethanol-free, as well as for my airplane. So if I need more gas for any of this equipment, I drive 70 miles round trip to get ethanol free gas, adding some pollution to the air.

For those who live in the tri-county area, Clark County in Washington did not require ethanol, last I heard, as well as Marion County in Oregon.

I once seriously considered a small ethanol plant back in the early eighties. Using corn only yields about 2.6 to 2.7 gallons of ethanol per bushel. If you add up all of the energy it took to extract that 2.7 gallons of ethanol, you?ll find a negative loss. This whole program is causing us to use more energy, and wouldn?t survive without government hand-outs. The US ethanol program is just one big boondoggle among many. Unfortunately, this kind of legislation is probably going to spread dictating more of us to use some percentage of ethanol, because the bureaucrats are always the last one to get it.

wj

RScott said:

This started several years ago because the area failed to meet clean air standards in the winter and ethanol as an oxygenator was seen as the solution. As cars have become cleaner burning, it was determined about 2 years ago that the area could meet the clean air standards without ethanol and a proposal was made to eliminate the requirement.

The environmentalist community howled, and this being Oregon, the environmentalist view prevailed, leaving the 3 county area needlessly using ethanol from November thru February.

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Technically, the Portland / Vancouver (WA) area meets the federal ambient CO standard, but is considered a "maintenance area". This means used to not meet the standard but now does, and must submit a plan to the Feds (EPA) on how it will continue to meet the standard. EPA has the authority to approve or deny the plans based on whether they think it will be sufficient. I haven't kept up with Oregon's plan (I don't work there anymore), but EPA has been hesitant to let areas get rid of the oxygenated gas requirement.

Anyway, Oregon started oxygenating (i.e., mixing in ehtanol into) gasoline in 1992. It was deemed in attainment of the CO standard in 1997. Part of the approval was that oxygenated gas be used for the next 10 years. PDX has been a maintenance area since. I'm not sure what has happened now that the 10 year period has expired. If you need some light bedtime reading, check out the Federal Register postings at 62 FR 31398 and 62 FR 46208.

Anyway, the take-home point is that ethanol was previously seen as a solution to localized air pollution problems (CO), but has now been reinvented as a solution to global air pollution problems (CO2). Sadly, it is unlikely to go away anytime soon. We are wise to figure out how to deal with it, if we can.

TODR

Any chemists here?

Why can't we use e10 in our airplanes???

What are the REAL reasons? anybody?

My whole system is alcohol tollerant so that just leaves the question of does the water drop out at altitude/low temp etc?

Anybody?

Frank

P.s

I will be doing some experiments in the near future if there is no real life data.

Frank

frankh said:

Why can't we use e10 in our airplanes???

What are the REAL reasons? anybody?

My whole system is alcohol tollerant so that just leaves the question of does the water drop out at altitude/low temp etc?

Anybody?

Frank

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As I see them:

* EtOH can cause failure of plastic and rubber parts (e.g., gaskets) in fuel systems. This may be a quick failure or may take time to show up. Since we like the fuel to stay inside the hoses and tanks, this is a Bad Thing.
* EtOH improves the solubility of water in AvGas. This means you can no longer use a sight test to check for water if you use EtOH-mixed gas. I'm not sure if one of the GATS jars or the like can identify water in EtOH gas (I hope so cuz that's what I use).
* EtOH will volatilize (evaporate) quicker than other gasoline fractions. I'm not sure what effect this will have on the gasoline's medium and long term stability. This also suggests that EtOH gas is more susceptible to vapor lock than "normal" mogas; not sure if this is true in practice.

EtOH - great for drinking, not for flying

TODR

Hmm

All my parts are OK on alcohol and the hoses are teflon so that is not an issue.

ETOH soaks up water...Ok cool...as long as it stays in solution who cares?...But does it? In theory the once the gas has soaked up all the water it can then the rest will sit on the bottom like it normally does. The problem will be does the water fall out of solution with lowering temp/pressure. Thats where my experiments will focuss I think.

OTOH os MORE volatile than mogas??...I wasn't aware of that. But you can still do the altitude test on each batch...I.e see what altitude it boils by pumping it down.
My fuel pumps happen to be in the wingroot so VL won't be an issue in my particular system. I would also be surprised that it would in the standard Vans system as well because the suction lines are pretty big and the flows are low.

Some backyard experiments coming up...standby for the explosions..


Frank

Geico266 said:

Mogas looses 2-3 octant points per 30 days it sits. I never let mogas that is going into my airplane sit for more than 30 days, and I start out with Shell 92 octane premium.

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I'd like to learn more about this since I'm considering an aero engine running on mogas. Did some googling, but haven't found any thing yet. If you are others have some site recommendations, I'd appreciate some help on finding them.
wj

Please explain to the ignorant why slight amounts of water are bad in fuel-injected systems. I understand that it causes problems for carburetors - how does it affect high pressure fuel injected systems like AFP?