Accurate Position Reporting

I was launching out of my home field a few days ago on a beautiful evening, and in the space of a couple of minutes, I counted six different in-bound aircraft calling up on CTAF and announcing their positions. I think two called from the Southeast, one from the east, two from the Southwest, and one from the west. As I was outbound and already above normal arrival altitudes, I wasn't worried about running into this traffic jam, but I kept listening, because I knew that the inevitable "Whoa, I barely missed you!" call was coming. Why? Well, people sometimes succumb to an interesting psychological "illusion" when reporting their position relative to our airport.

Interstate Highway 45 runs straight as an arrow between Houston and Galveston. Houston is considered to be "North" of Galveston, and the highway is considered to be north/south. Pretty much all of the local grid work lines up with this, giving the illusion that you're in Kansas. The problem is that the highway actually runs Northwest/Southeast - pretty much 45 degrees to North/South. And our runway is also pointed Northwest/Southeast. I bet you've guessed th problem. People take off on Runway 14 and say they are heading "Straight out to the South" - well, which is it, are you going straight out, or turning 45 degrees right and going south? Or they coming in perpendicular to the runway from the western quadrant, and call that they are "five miles west" - but they are actually southwest. If you are coming in from the west or east, you are lined up perfectly for a 45 degree entry to the respective downwinds, but frequently, people call these out 45 degrees off as well.

Now, if everyone flying in to the field was a "local", and understood this rotated convention of directions, there would be little problem. But we have to assume that there are transients in the mix, for whom north is north, and west is west. SO what difference does it make? Well, we start out scanning the entire sky fro traffic. When traffic calls on CTAF we naturally narrow our search to try and pick them out. If they have called an inaccurate position, we are LOOKING IN THE WRONG PLACE, and spend more time away from the full scan, because we are trying to find the "threat". Now imagine when multiple people do it at the same time. Remember that the majority of mid-air collisions occur in the close vicinity of airports.....

Frankly, I'd rather have NO report than an inaccurate one. Just one more thing to think about on your safety list....(And thank heaven for the middle of the country and the section lines from horizon to horizon....)

Paul

Position reporting

Paul,

Here in beautiful Santa Barbara we have a similar problem involving the Pacific Ocean. The mental picture dictates that the coastline runs notth and south. Sorry, the coast here is east/west for a ways. You hear people all the time reporting "20 south" meaning they are 20 miles "down the coast" which is almost due east (magnetic.) Some years ago I was doing some work over the Channel Islands and called approach, giving my position as "20 south...really" The controller laughed and said "oh, there you are down there" meaning the bottom of his scope.

Some folks don't understand that if you are headed direct to the aerodrome, all you have to do is look at the bottom of the DG/heading indicator and whatever it says is where you are relative to the field. Add a number from the GPS/DME and there you have it, an accurate position report.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

Altitude

Paul, You are correct. It is frequently a hodgepodge. One thing that should be easy to do (and is rarely done) is to report the altitude with the position. I try to do this and sometimes do forget because I was not taught to report altitude in any of my training (CFII). Slowly, I am over 60, I am teaching myself to report "XYZ (airport name) RV 626DD 10 SW of XYZ 2000 (decending or climbing or neither if I am level)". At least I give them one report that is pretty concrete with the altitude. I repeat the airport name twice as it is easy to miss if said once. I frequently get Unicom calls from airports as far as an hour flight away from my home airport.

Since it involves accuracy...

Don't use "about" in position reports. (This word is only for use by Immigration to parse Canadians from Americans.) If you aren't sure where you are, figure it out before broadcasting your ignorance, broadening everyone else's scan area (Just what is the tolerance on "about"?), and stretching the transmission with a largely useless word.

John Siebold
Boise, ID

Keep it short too...

I optained my Private at a small uncontrolled strip in GA. The flight school had us get in the habit of making radio calls using the full N number and type for our position reports. This made sense in a teaching situation.

Years later, I was taking some training in FL where the airspace and unicomm freqs are always jammed. My flight instructor taught me to whittle down my transmissions to the bare info necessary for other aircraft to identify me.

N-number: not needed to the other aircraft
Model: not needed. "Cessna" or Mooney or "RV" will do for the visual.
Position: altitude and position relative to airport
IN pattern: 'base' or 'downwind' is not enough to tell the story, the lt or rt needs to be in there.

His pet peeve was pilots giving their life story over a busy unicom
All other words are superfluous.
Listen for it next time you fly and make a game of telling the best story in fewest words.

Not so good and common on a busy freq:"XYZ Traffic, November, 12345...we're a Cessna One Seventy-two, Skyhawk, and we're 10 miles to the North...we'll be entering a downwind for runway three four."

Way too much info. Try this
"XYZ Traffic, Cessna 10 miles to the North at 3500 feet."

If you're in that pattern, looking for this guy, you'll get the picture right away. Too many words and not only does it clog the freq, but it puts too many numbers out there for others to decipher

Same plane getting closer
"XYZ traffic, Cessna 3 miles west for left downwind three-four."

in pattern
"XYZ traffic, Cessna left downwind three four."

If someone wants to talk to this plane, the N number is still not necessary:
"Cessna over XYZ, do you see the low wing taxiing out?"

Try it, you'll like it.

Art in Asheville

Might add color to this. There may be 5 Cessnas in the pattern.

Mel said:

Might add color to this. There may be 5 Cessnas in the pattern.

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And they all look WHITE!!

I agree, use the minimum number of words that make sense in the situation - life stories don't help. Another thing that I have seen (heard) becoming more popular in the past couple e of years is narrative reports of where people are taxiing on the airport.."Pearland Traffic, Cessna XYZ taxiing from the hangars to the fuel pump" OK, I know that there is an example in the AIM that has people report taxiing to the active runway, and when you have an airport in the middle of nowhere that shares it's frequency with no one, that might be OK, but when you have five airports in the area on the same CTAF on a Saturday, it just clogs the channel.

Again, use common sense - if you and another airplane are head to head on the taxiway, and wondering what each other are going to do, use the radio and communicate. But if you're taxiing at a reasonably subsonic speed, we don't need to know your every ground movement if it is going to block transmissions between folks in the air!

Paul

Something that hacks me off is a pilot referring to local landmarks for position reports:

"Cessna 12345 over Brindley Mountain inbound for Hiccup Airport."

I replied, "We ain't from around here and don't have a clue where Brindley Mountain is but RV 9er Sierra Bravo is lead of three RV's five west of Hiccup inbound for landing 18".

There were several hills in the area.....

This is one of the reasons I like to keep my GX-50 GPS in North UP view instead of track view. You can easily look at the airport and immediately ascertain your relative position to the field. Yeah, you should *know* the direction you are anyway, but it's a nice, error free way to know for sure.

When I get a 396 or 496 (very soon) I will keep it in track up mode.

Good point, Seth, all too often overlooked by the dopes who announce their airworthiness ticket and registration number - and let it go at that.

It would be like you in your 172 calling, "normal, N12345,...", or on light load days, "utility, N12345,...".

"Experimental" is insufficient for visual identification and unnecessary in the first place, except on the initial call to an approach control and one other ATC function (the FAR/AIM is specific). I think it's a tower but only if not handed off by Approach. Drats! I'm having a senior moment. Anyone else know (and I believe this was buried in some thread awhile back)?

I really like: "facility, type (common name), distinguishing feature (like color), location, and intentions (if not obvious from location), facility" at uncontrolled fields.

John Siebold
Boise, ID

I think you will also find that for alot of pilots, if they can SEE it, they are OVER it. Time and time again I have experienced people calling "Binford Belch-fire 300 @ 1500 feet over lake Windy-bagel", only to have them show up there 3 to 5 minutes later. Aaarrrgh!!!

RV7ator said:

I really like: "facility, type (common name), distinguishing feature (like color), location, and intentions (if not obvious from location), facility" at uncontrolled fields.

John Siebold
Boise, ID

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Winner! In the cacophony that is Unicom, often the facility name is missed during the first part of the transmission. When you hear a guy announce that he's turning base for runway 23- right after you've just turned base for 23, you'll really appreciate it if he includes the facility again at the end of the transmission.

"...dunk traffic, Cessna single turning base, 23, Podunk."

Where?

My favorite position report I heard on unicom was:
"I have the airport off my left wingtip."

dtreadwell said:

My favorite position report I heard on unicom was:
"I have the airport off my left wingtip."

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*chuckle*

reminds me of my flight training days at meacham field (ftw) in the '70's. there was a lot of -ahem- international training done at meacham. once i heard on the tower freq "meacham tower, i land now. you look out, ok?"

Sam Buchanan said:

Something that hacks me off is a pilot referring to local landmarks for position reports:

"Cessna 12345 over Brindley Mountain inbound for Hiccup Airport."

I replied, "We ain't from around here and don't have a clue where Brindley Mountain is but RV 9er Sierra Bravo is lead of three RV's five west of Hiccup inbound for landing 18".

There were several hills in the area.....

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I think it is perfectly reasonable for a VFR pilot to use landmarks in their position reports.

At my local airport the noise abatement procedures are defined by landmarks on the ground. If you don't know where the landmarks are that define the "Noise Sensitive Areas" then you are not using the airport responsibly.

Sure the noise abatement stuff is voluntary but people who do not follow it just give more ammunition to the idiots that bought McMansions inside of the pattern and are now trying to close the airport because it's "too noisy".

In response to my original post:

Something that hacks me off is a pilot referring to local landmarks for position reports:

"Cessna 12345 over Brindley Mountain inbound for Hiccup Airport."

I replied, "We ain't from around here and don't have a clue where Brindley Mountain is but RV 9er Sierra Bravo is lead of three RV's five west of Hiccup inbound for landing 18".

There were several hills in the area.....

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The following reply was posted:

morlino said:

I think it is perfectly reasonable for a VFR pilot to use landmarks in their position reports.

At my local airport the noise abatement procedures are defined by landmarks on the ground. If you don't know where the landmarks are that define the "Noise Sensitive Areas" then you are not using the airport responsibly.

Sure the noise abatement stuff is voluntary but people who do not follow it just give more ammunition to the idiots that bought McMansions inside of the pattern and are now trying to close the airport because it's "too noisy".

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I don't think anyone will argue against the need for noise abatement in certain locales. But that is not the subject of this thread.

Read my original post carefully. It refers to a flight of three aircraft arriving at an airport in an area of the country we had never visited. Are you suggesting that we should somehow learn all the local landmarks (this could include all the mountains, factories, fishponds, highways, etc, etc, etc....) for every airport we use during a cross country flight?

Me thinks this would be an impossible task. Pilots who refer to local landmarks during the arrival phase of flight to an airport are simply not flying according to the AIM and are endangering flights not originating from that area. When a pilot reports their position as six miles east of Hiccup Field I know where to look for them even if I have never been in that part of the country. Have them report "over Higgins subdivision on the Alpha noise abatement procedure" and I won't have a clue where the aircraft is located, and the fault lies with the improper (and illegal since it doesn't comply with the AIM?) position report, not my lack of familiarity with local landmarks. (This is similar to pilots using IFR approach lingo in a traffic area populated with VFR pilots, but that is also a different subject.)

Sorry, I totally disagree with your statement as it applies to position reports near an airport. Knowing landmarks in relation to following noise abatement procedures is a completely different situation; reporting of these landmarks degrades VFR position reporting and does not enhance safety in an airport environment for pilots who do not routinely operate in that locality.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for a VFR pilot to use landmarks in their position reports.

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Mark, buddy, I have to agree 100% with Sam. Local pilots may know local landmarks, but transient pilots on x-country flights will not know. You report your position using a landmark then a transient pilot is going to have to tie up the freq trying to figure out where you're at. Everyone knows where "10 miles south" or "5 miles north" is. This is in line with the AIM.

If you don't know where the landmarks are that define the "Noise Sensitive Areas" then you are not using the airport responsibly.

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That's not irresponsible. Irresponsible is knowing the noise abatement procedures and ignoring them. Like Sam said, noise sensitive areas have nothing to do with position reporting.

Around here, it is quite common to hear people announce their position relative to a landmark. Things like "inbound over Boulder Res" are very commonly heard on the radio. I'm not saying it is better than "3 miles north" but it much more commonly heard on the radio.

I wasn't able to find anything in my AIM about not using landmarks. What page are you guys looking at? (I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I want to go review that section)

Generally, when I'm flying locally I do not have a GPS. Many of the rentals are not equipped and I don't usually bring one on local flights. Sure I might know where you are when you say you are 6 miles east but I could be 5 miles east or 7 miles east and without a GPS it's rather difficult to say with much accuracy. It's pretty easy for me to know when I'm crossing over Highway 287. (it's not going to matter if I'm inbound in a 172 and you are inbound in your RV, but that's beside the point)

What would you recommend? Giving distances from a VOR that is located at a nearby airport is probably not going to help anyone. I guess I could draw concentric circles around the airport on my chart to get the distances for the common landmarks.

I'm a 100 hour pilot and maybe 10% of that is XC time. So when I've gone to new airports, I've always done a lot of homework first. I have definitely heard people announce their positions and been unfamiliar with the landmark they were using but I always just assumed that this was my fault.

Mark,

Good questions.

First, the AIM doens't say to NOT use landmarks, but it doesn't say to use them either. What it does say in section 4-1-3, Tbl 4-1-1 is to make inbound calls starting at 10 miles. I typically call at 10 miles and then again at 5 miles.

As for recommendation, do both, if you like. "Boulder Traffic, RVXXX, 3 miles north, over the boulder dam, inbound for landing, Boulder"

I agree with you familarizing yourself with airports you plan on visiting while on a x-country, but when I fly from FL to Oregon in my RV, I inevitably land at airports I didn't plan on due to wx, winds, change of plans, etc. It's unreasonable to think I'm going to study all the land marks around all of the hundreds of airports along my 2000 mile route that I might land at. It's better to simply be standardized and use distance and direction in position reporting, then you're always covered and everyone is on the same sheet.

morlino said:

Around here, it is quite common to hear people announce their position relative to a landmark. Things like "inbound over Boulder Res" are very commonly heard on the radio. I'm not saying it is better than "3 miles north" but it much more commonly heard on the radio.

I wasn't able to find anything in my AIM about not using landmarks. What page are you guys looking at? (I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I want to go review that section)

Generally, when I'm flying locally I do not have a GPS. Many of the rentals are not equipped and I don't usually bring one on local flights. Sure I might know where you are when you say you are 6 miles east but I could be 5 miles east or 7 miles east and without a GPS it's rather difficult to say with much accuracy. It's pretty easy for me to know when I'm crossing over Highway 287. (it's not going to matter if I'm inbound in a 172 and you are inbound in your RV, but that's beside the point)

What would you recommend? Giving distances from a VOR that is located at a nearby airport is probably not going to help anyone. I guess I could draw concentric circles around the airport on my chart to get the distances for the common landmarks.

I'm a 100 hour pilot and maybe 10% of that is XC time. So when I've gone to new airports, I've always done a lot of homework first. I have definitely heard people announce their positions and been unfamiliar with the landmark they were using but I always just assumed that this was my fault.

Click to expand...

Mark, when you are at an unfamiliar airport and a pilot reports position using a landmark rather than conventional phraseology, and you can't figure out where he is, it is the fault of the pilot using landmarks, not your shortcomings as a pilot.

You observation about confusion with knowing where the other plane is located is precisely why using local landmarks is a dubious practice. Your observations have illustrated my point very nicely.

And yes, it does matter if you are in a C172 and I am in an RV. When you call in "C172 10 west" and I'm 12 west, I know to look out for you because I will pass you and beat you to the pattern.

Also, just because you have often heard "inbound over Boulder Res" doesn't mean it is good practice. Please don't use all the boneheaded things you see and hear pilots doing to establish your standards for acceptable flying.

If I may make a suggestion: don't make any flight without a GPS! This is particularly relevant to a low-time pilot. With the GPS running, you can make precise position reports in relationship to any airport and not only will this enhance the safety of your flight, it will insure that other aircraft in your area will not have a nasty surprise when you appear unexpectedly in their windscreen. Keep in mind some of the aircraft in your vicinity may be flying at much higher speeds than you and an inaccurate or unrecognizable position report may create a very real traffic conflict. 99% of the other aircraft in the area will be using GPS and they will be able to tell within a tenth of a mile how their distance from the airport compares to yours.

There is just no excuse for not competently using a GPS now that they are so reasonably priced, and in my opinion, being thoroughly familiar with its operation is a must-have in your skill set.

Happy flying and enjoy that new ticket!

Good points

Good points, Sam,
The beauty of using the GPS's "Nearest" function is very helpful during the initial contact of any Center for flight following. I push the nearest button and then can positively tell them that I'm 12 miles south of LZU or wherever I happen to be. They find me quickly since they know where to look on their screen.

Pierre

This weekend I heard it all

Busy three days of great VFR weather really brought it out.

There are the IFR guys practicing straight in approaches and calling out IFR fixes for the VFR traffic that have no clue what they are talking about.

Then there was the guy yesterday who called base for 2 when he meant entering X-wind for 2. I questioned him a number of times about his location as I could not find him and was about to break off my approach. Finally he came back on the radio and said, apologetically, that he was "mid-field cross wind for 2."

Then there was the guy who kept broadcasting on a busy frequency that he was "over the lake at 3000". No lake name, no plane name, nothing.

Let's see, what else did I hear?

"XYZ Unicom, Some jet, Dash-10 inbound for a landing. Could you turn us around quickly, we are in a hurry. A NASCAR pit stop is what I'm looking for. Could you have someone bring out cold drinks to the plane when we land..." This went on like a book.

Oh, my favorite is the guys who think they are on a CB. I heard a lot of 10-4's, Good buddy, Roger (Who is this Roger guy and why does everyone want to talk to him?), etc.

As the others have said, keep it brief and ACCURATE. Your life may depend on it.

Wilco

N941WR said:

Let's see, what else did I hear?

Oh, my favorite is the guys who think they are on a CB. I heard a lot of 10-4's, Good buddy, Roger (Who is this Roger guy and why does everyone want to talk to him?), etc.

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"This roger guy is alive and well in the AIM Pilot Controller Glossary. A useful phrase too. "Roger" means "I have heard your last transmission" It does not mean yes or no, just "I heard you."

Another term that some people find arcane is "Wilco" which means "I heard your message, understand it, and will comply with it."

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

John Clark said:

"Roger" means "I have heard your last transmission" It does not mean yes or no, just "I heard you."

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Actually I believe that "Roger" means I UNDERSTAND your last transmission.

Landmark reporting is very valuable info to towered airports. Centennial uses the KOA tower and Cherry Creek Mall and I 25 as landmarks all the time. For local pilots these are great but I can't find the KOA tower as a VFR checkpoint on my sectional as a nonlocal and simply have to report "unfamiliar".
The flaggy thingies on your sectional are the VFR checkpoints and should be usable by anyone unfamiliar with the territory.

I affectionally refer to pilots that give incorrect position reports as "big fat liars", they are my personal pet peeve. I hear pilots reporting 'base' when they are 'midfield downwind' all the time and just don't understand it.

By no means authoritative, but hey...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_procedure

Roger that...

Mel said:

Actually I believe that "Roger" means I UNDERSTAND your last transmission.

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I agree, but the pilot/controller glossary says:

ROGER I have received all of your last transmission.

I guess in their mind "received" assumes understood. What they do state clearly is that it is not an answer to a yes or no question. I have heard that a lot on the air. "Can you make a short approach?" "Roger." In this case roger doesn't answer the question. In this example the response is "affirmitive" or "negative."

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

taking AIM

OK, here are references in the AIM in regard to VFR position reports near an untowered airport:

4-1-9. Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without Operating Control Towers

You can read this section at this link:

http://tinyurl.com/25udsw

Of particular interest is "g. Self-Announce Position and/or Intentions".

Lots of good info and no reference to using landmarks in position reports on UNICOM frequency.

Sam Buchanan said:

Of particular interest is "g. Self-Announce Position and/or Intentions".

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And PLEASE pay particular attention to MY pet peeve:
"Traffic in the area please advise" is NOT a recognized self-announce position and/or intention phrase and should not be used under any condition.

Distance Guestimates...

Hey, it's nice to come back after a few days off-line and see that this thread has gotten some really good discussion going! One post mentioned that it can be difficult to estimate distance without a GPS. Since I have been known to fly a non-GPS equipped Cub now and again, I sympathize....the trick I was taught many years ago is to know the runway length, and use that as a "yardstick" to see how many runway-lengths you are away from the filed. Of course, you have to be within visual range, but this is really most important within a few miles. When you're 10 miles out, it probably is less of a factor if you're actually 9.5 or 11....

The only time I would use landmarks is if there is something so visually unique that no one could possibly miss or mistake it, like "over the erupting volcano east of the field..."