McCauley Prop on an RV?

I was talking to my local prop shop about a Hartzell propeller and he didn't say they were bad but he did say that Hartzell has a lot of service related bulletins and ADs. Has anybody ever put a McCauley prop on an RV-8 O-360? I had a Hartzell on a Navion that I have owned and it was a nightmare. Just curious.

thanks,

Steve

Somewhere on this list is someone who used a Lyc and McCauley prop combo from a Cardinal RG. Issues would include cowling fit, spinner matching the cowling (assuming you used a spinner from a Cardinal), and maybe some I haven't thought of. Old Hartzells had lots of ADs. I had one try to sling a blade 35 plus years ago. I still have the failing hub out in the shop. Maybe I should post a picture of the huge crack in the hub...good reason to have constant speed props overhauled every five years. How do you know what is going on inside if you don't look? Twenty tons of radial force per blade, or something like that. It was an old design, not like the new Hartzells at all. I have a new Hartzell for my RV in the guest bedroom.

Get a BA Hartzell

n38139 said:

I was talking to my local prop shop about a Hartzell propeller and he didn't say they were bad but he did say that Hartzell has a lot of service related bulletins and ADs. Has anybody ever put a McCauley prop on an RV-8 O-360? I had a Hartzell on a Navion that I have owned and it was a nightmare. Just curious.

thanks, Steve

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You prop shop is full of it, sorry. Get a hartzell BA prop from Vans' Brand new with out any AD's for $6,000. Its MADE for RV's and tested with different combs of electronic ignition. Also your prop shop does NOT have the OEM agreement we have with Hartzell through Vans. The prop we buy for $6,000 retails for probably $10,000, which is what the prop shop would have to pay. Don't rub it in, but we get a heck of deal. A prop shop may want to sell you and old rebuilt hartzell or mccauley for $4,500. Spend the extra $1,500 and get a new prop, not used piece of worn out junk.

The McCauley has been used on a few planes but its a pain and does not mount the spinner the same, so you are on your own, into custom land (meaning more time).

Yes OLD OLD Hartzell's (especially steel ones made and designed in the 1940's and 50's) where nightmares. They learned a few things since.

The standard for RV's has been the C2YK/F7666 which you can buy today. It dates back to the late 1960's and found on Mooney's and Piper Arrows to name a few. The early ones still in service have a few AD's but the late model versions made in the last handful of years have NO AD's. However as I said get a Blended Airfoil (BA) Hartzell (also AD free):

PROP C2YR-1BF/F7496 (I)O-360 (180hp) diameter: 74"
Application: RV-6A, RV-7A, RV-8/8A

PROP C2YR-1BF/F7496-2 (I)O-360 (180hp) diameter:72"
Application: RV-3, RV-4, RV-6/6A, RV-7/7A, RV-8/8A

PROP C2YR-1BF/F7497 IO-360 (200hp) diameter: 74"
Application: RV-7A, RV-8/8A

PROP C2YR-1BF/F7497 IO-360 (200hp) diameter: 72"
Application: RV-7/7A, RV-8/8A

Note: Even for the 180HP application specify you want the F7497 blade (verses the F7496 blade) which is the latest version. There are few or no RPM restrictions on most applications with the F7497 blade. The F7496 is still very good and has few / no limiting restrictions.

Restriction wise all BA props are better than the older C2YK/F7666 design, which had that low RPM range to stay out of as much as possible.

McCauley has not tested their prop with electronic ignition that I know of. McCauley really ignores the homebuilt market, I know because I asked them. Hartzell works with and supports the homebuilt market, thus the BA prop, made, tested and optimize for RV's.

On paper the McCauley equivalent Mooney prop might have less AD's but its also not made for the RV, performance wise or install the same. The BA Hartzell's have been shown to be the fastest c/s prop you can buy (as tested by van's aircraft). I have no data but guess the BA Hartzell would be about 5 mph faster than the McCauley, may be more.

gmcjetpilot said:

A prop shop may want to sell you and old rebuilt hartzell or mccauley for $4,500. Spend the extra $1,500 and get a new prop, not used piece of worn out junk.

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I have seen a prop shop trying to sell old AD hub to unsuspecting RV builders. I even asked one of the shops if they knew there was an AD on the "0 Time" prop they were trying to sell. She then informed me "No AD if the prop is going on an RV". I asked if she would tell anyone buying it there was an AD on it and she said no because it was not tagged and could only go on an Experimental. She will have a great career selling used cars.

In the hubs we use on RVs there were the old hubs, A-hubs, and the current B-hubs. The old hubs and A-hubs had less metal where the blade entered the hub. Some cracking problems were identified and corrected with the current B-hubs. If you buy a new prop from Vans you know you are getting the new B-hub.

Ref this thread for good info: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=11098

McCauley

I'm someone with experience using a McCauley prop on an RV-8. My engine is an IO-360-A1B6D 200 hp. and the prop is from a 200 hp. Piper Arrow. The McCauley people at Oshkosh told me that it was type certificated for my engine. Since you have an O-360, check with the McCauley people to see if the model you're thinking about is ok with your engine.

It was a bit of a pain to install as you have to use a 2-1/4 extension to get the Van's spinner backplate out far enough to fit the cowl.

There is a low power rpm restriction range on my model prop---Do not operate at 1400 to 1900 rpm below 15 in. manifold pressure. Not a big problem. You don't have to have your eyes glued to the tach, as the plane will tell you when you're in that range.

All that said, I love the prop and I got a good deal on it. The fellow I bought it from had it serviced and yellow tagged by a reputable prop shop. Do not buy any used prop unless it is yellow tagged!!!!!!!

I believe that it performs as well as the Hartzell blended airfoil. I would love to go head to head with a 200 hp RV-8 with a blended airfoil just to see! (If Hartzell has OK'd the BA for use on the 200 hp. Lycs yet.)

Speed, AD's and seeing into the future

mannanj said:

I believe that it performs as well as the Hartzell blended airfoil. I would love to go head to head with a 200 hp RV-8 with a blended airfoil just to see! (If Hartzell has OK'd the BA for use on the 200 hp. Lycs yet.)

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Yea man me two! I love side by side data!

Speed?
I suspect, guessing, the Hartzell BA will be faster than the McCauley. The reason I say that? Very subtle changes in airfoil shape, twist, blade width (chord), area and diameter all play a part. Most blades are generic and work for many planes. Constant speed helps mask any lack of optimization because the blade pitch is variable. However if you're looking to milk an extra few MPH out of it, blade optimization to that exact airframe makes a difference. The Hartzell BA was made for the RV's. They should have called it the RV prop.

Blades like Hartzell's venerable F7666 blades where made for fast planes like Mooney's and other fast retracts with about 180HP, which is a good match to RV performance. However going from the F7666 to the new F7496/F7497 blade they picked up 3 mph in Vans reported data. Even the old F7666 blade was faster than most of the new finagled composite props. I'm going to be accused of working for Hartzell, but in my opinion it's a good choice. If some one put a good airworthy McCauley in my lap for cheap, I might make it work. However if going new, the BA should be the ticket and its a bargain.


Support?
I was not putting down McCauley, they do make a good product clearly. I do know they had a corporate shake-up a few years ago, moving the company, telling the employees move or lose your job, so support has suffered. Bummer for the employees. Hartzell seems to support the homebuilt market more. Not a put down but McCauley's marketing strategy seems more geared towards bigger certified GA/commercial planes.

Doug posted a story about a RV'er flying into Hartzell's home airport for service a month or so ago. They took care of his prop right there at their facility. They went out of their way to make it right. I recall he bought the plane used RV. The previous builder installed the prop with the internal protective oil plug in place! Advertisement switch off, may be Hartzell will give me a free prop?



AD's?
Will there be AD's on the new Hartzell BA prop? Who knows, but this hub is based on 40 years of refinement of the C2YK hub. In fact the C2YK and C2YR are really the same thing now. The 'R' hub has an extra dowel pin recess, so it works on either 'K' or 'R' flanges, so they just make 'R' hubs and label it as required.

Remember many C2YK hub AD's on early/old versions where in service on 300HP and 350HP agricultural planes and aerobatic planes. It's the same hub as used on a 180HP Mooney. Also many props sit outside for decades with little care or use. The FAA uses AD's to control what is called "The aging fleet". There's no life limited parts on most GA props, engines or airframes. So the FAA puts restrictive inspection AD's out on components to force operators to upgrade or retire the part, by making it uneconomical to keep in service.

They learned things over 40 years as "asav8tor" pointed out. They changed the design over the years. A 1975's C2YK hub and 2007 hub are different components. The design has years of improvement, but like everything, the day comes it will be worn out.

The new BA prop is AD free now. However in 40 years when these props are old, who knows.


Quote: "I had one try to sling a blade 35 plus years ago........good reason to have constant speed props overhauled every five years." Stephen Lindberg

Good advice. Props are serious business. We can talk about how few failures verses number of props in service, flying millions of hours, but one failure is one too many, especially if its on your plane. Not sure what prop this was, but it does not matter.

Prop

A good friend who is an A&P with IA told me that Hartzell wasn't in the prop making business----they were in the parts making business. (With all the AD's.!!!)

All kidding aside, I would have gone with the blended airfoil if it had been approved for the 200hp. counterweighted crankshaft Lyc. It wasn't (and it may still not be as far as I know), so I went with what was on hand that was approved.

Hartzell on a RV-8

Any advice on what length on a RV-8? The guy at Van's told me either the 72 or 74 will work on an 8.

mannanj said:

All kidding aside, I would have gone with the blended airfoil if it had been approved for the 200hp. counterweighted crankshaft Lyc. It wasn't (and it may still not be as far as I know), so I went with what was on hand that was approved.

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Mannan

If you don't mind me asking, what is your empty weight and CG? IF I remember right the McCauley was quite a bit heavier.

Thanks,

McCauley

Wade:

My EW is 1120 and the Arm is 76.94.

Actually the McCauley is lighter than the Hartzell by a couple or so pounds. Don't remember exactly how much, but it is lighter. (At least the 213 and 214 hubs that fit the Mooney 201 and the Piper Arrow.)

Just a note

McCauley makes two hubs that fit the Lyc flange I recall. One is longer and what Whirlwind uses on their two bladed model's. There's a shorter version hub, which is more common and most likely to be found on the used market. The problem as was mentioned with the short hub is the spinner is made to mount off the flywheel, so you have to make extensions, brackets and back plate.

I am no McCauley or Whirlwind expert, but Whirlwind uses McCauley hubs. The WW200RV has all spinner parts, plus cool composite blades. If you want to avoid a Hartzell BA than a good 2nd choice is the WW200RV prop. The big diff between the two hubs is Hartzell has a split hub retention, bolts and all that stuff.

If you go new from McCauley it will be the most expensive prop you can buy, probably more than a Whirlwind. I am not sure what hub you can find on the used market, but its most likely for the Mooney 201.

McCauley had resonance limits as well, as much or more than the Hartzell. McCauley has done no flight test with Electronic Ignition, which aggravates the resonance issue, as Hartzell found. I suspect the McCauley is affected the same, but it is an unknown. I think McCauley was certified on counterweight cranks, but you need to research that. Putting it on a non-counterweight crank with Elect Ign may be an issue. I guess some DAR's might have heartburn with a McCauley on a non-weighed crank:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=17683&highlight=%

(one more post recommending Hartzell and I get a free prop. )