Safety: Apples to Apples

Well it looks like safety (or the lack thereof) is the topic of the day around here and with all the hand wringing about how doomed we all are I feel like something is being completely overlooked. When evaluating my chances of being killed in my airplane I examine what type of flying I'm involved. That is to say, I take all the crashes in recent memory, subtract out the ones involving dip****s not checking weather at all and flying straight into IMC without training, low level acro, close formation in super high powered warbirds, zero margin of error airshow performances, completely ignoring indications of an ailing engine, intentional scud running, and a few other categories that I can't think of just now. What I'm left with is a group that, in my opinion, has an acceptable safety record. Looking at all aviation accidents together is like lumping unlimited hydroplane racing in with canoing on freakin' Golden Pond. Let's keep our heads here so that we don't scare our families, friends, congressmen, etc.

Apples to Apples

Amen brother!

Yes an air crash is horrible. But when you look at the number of auto crashes versus air crashes, I'll fly any day! It's too easy to sit back and say that what we do for fun is dangerous. Yes there is a certain amount of risk, but it is certainly less than driving down the freeway, in my opinion. We as pilots take alot more care and upkeep on our planes than an auto, and we are are more careful in the way that we preform what we do. Lets put this to rest and go on having fun with what I consider to be is the best design out there on the market today.

Mike Bauer
RV-3 flying N87LB
RV-4 building N742MC

rvaitor87 said:

Amen brother!

Yes an air crash is horrible. But when you look at the number of auto crashes versus air crashes, I'll fly any day! It's too easy to sit back and say that what we do for fun is dangerous. Yes there is a certain amount of risk, but it is certainly less than driving down the freeway, in my opinion. We as pilots take alot more care and upkeep on our planes than an auto, and we are are more careful in the way that we preform what we do. Lets put this to rest and go on having fun with what I consider to be is the best design out there on the market today.

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Not to mention that we have a metric tonne more training than your average SUV "driver," and we operate in a far less congested environment.

("Driver" in quotes because, IMNSHO, 99% of the people in the left front seat aren't actually in control of the vehicle at any given moment, they're just along for the ride.)

present co excluded

if you take all the beer drinking dope smoking A and P's and I A out of it how safe would we be?

I'm flying around after getting my C-140 back from annual and after 3 hrs. of flying I'm doing night landings;

Downwind to base, 800 agl, no power, no throttle. engine still running at 2000 rpm.

the next day I find the throttle linkage unscrewed from the heimmy on the carb arm. I can see where the jam nut was backed off a 1/4" from where the heimmy was.

another airplane mystery-- shoot me if I use the same IA/ AP

RV Accident Analysis

It's interesting that you should mention this. I've been going through the NTSB RV accident database that's on Dan C's website. I've been putting information into Excel in order to come up with some percentages. I'm only halfway through the entire list, when I'm finished I'll post my findings. Right now though, the results are pointing towards the obvious: completely avoidable situations and stupid pilot mistakes.

mark manda said:

if you take all the beer drinking dope smoking A and P's and I A out of it how safe would we be?

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I don't want to offend you but, you get what you pay for. The job is not very lucrative on a W2 basis. If you want professional competent technical work the salary needs to be there to attract and retain that caliber of workers. You cannot expect BMW quality work for a Yugo price.

Quality work!

asav8tor said:

I don't want to offend you but, you get what you pay for. The job is not very lucrative on a W2 basis. If you want professional competent technical work the salary needs to be there to attract and retain that caliber of workers. You cannot expect BMW quality work for a Yugo price.

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I am an airline pilot making today what a guy made is 1988 or there abouts, that is with no adjustment for cost of living. Since my pay has gone down some 40% just in the last few years should the quality of my work go down? Do you only fly on airlines with the best paid pilots, base on your comment pay equates to quality of work.

At what ever pay rate I was taught to do the best job possible. If I wanted more pay I looked for another job. Pay rates are what the market will bare which is why airline pilot pay rates have gone down in the past few years. If you are not doing the best job you can with the utmost attention to detail in any area related to aviation you need to find a new career.

I know a guy who almost died because the aileron connections where not safety wired after cables were replaced at an annual. The aileron let loose on the second flight just after takeoff. One of the reasons he lived was he was in a seaplane and the thing hit the water just right.

I sometimes get aggravated with contractors and other workers when I find mistakes they have made. I wonder how they would feel if I flew their family around with the attention to detail that they have.

Fly Safe and Check Six!

RVG8tor said:

I am an airline pilot making today what a guy made is 1988 or there abouts, that is with no adjustment for cost of living. Since my pay has gone down some 40% just in the last few years should the quality of my work go down? Do you only fly on airlines with the best paid pilots, base on your comment pay equates to quality of work.

At what ever pay rate I was taught to do the best job possible. If I wanted more pay I looked for another job. Pay rates are what the market will bare which is why airline pilot pay rates have gone down in the past few years. If you are not doing the best job you can with the utmost attention to detail in any area related to aviation you need to find a new career.

I know a guy who almost died because the aileron connections where not safety wired after cables were replaced at an annual. The aileron let loose on the second flight just after takeoff. One of the reasons he lived was he was in a seaplane and the thing hit the water just right.

I sometimes get aggravated with contractors and other workers when I find mistakes they have made. I wonder how they would feel if I flew their family around with the attention to detail that they have.

Fly Safe and Check Six!

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This is kind of a thread drift but I'll go with it. I was responding to a comment about the caliber of individuals found in the AP world. I responded with the ability of a career field to be able to "attract and retain" a certain level of competence. Your response has to do with a different career field that has experienced unprecedented earnings erosion. In your case the field had the ability to attract as wages were (in the past) pretty good. As they spiral down the ability attract new highly capable and retain will be another matter. Are you going to tell me if you take another 80 percent pay cut on top of what you have already taken they will retain you in the field? And if not do you think someone with equal or greater potential than yourself will take your job and do it with the same attention to detail that you do for 20 cents on the dollar?

I guess that would be a No and No

Standards

asav8tor said:

I guess that would be a No and No

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asav8tor,

Sorry I did not seem to reply in a timely manner I am out of town and just found a WiFi connection.

The answers are No and No but no matter what the pay is if you get into the business you do your best job regardless of pay. If the wages don't "attract and retain'' the best and brightest then the entry requirements better make sure we get the best and the brightest. If the standards are not to a high enough level then we will have problems. The wages will meet the qualifications at some point, the idea is the qualification standards need to remain high, then the wages will come up to meet those interested in the career.

I did not mean to strike a nerve if I did, my thought was that if there are AP/IAs out there that are not meeting the standard of the field then there should be some way to police this, maybe not. In the pilot world we have check rides, this still leaves a range of pilots with differing abilities in the system, but this range is within what is considered safe. It will be the lowering of the standards that will make things unsafe. It is incumbent upon everyone to uphold the standards. If you get truly less than good work (unsafe) from your AP then do something about it don't wait for him or her to make a mistake with someone else.

Thanks for the banter, I respect your opinion and agree that we need to continue to retain the best and the brightest, but we can't let qualification creep start in any industry least of all aviation.

Cheers

PS you are correct this is thread creep, hopefully we can end this here and if you wish to continue the debate we can start another thread. I think we both understand each others points.