Van's Air Force
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Has it been seen in the wild?
- Thread starter mcsteatlh
- Start date
Watched the Aero news link with Van talking about the 12. He specifically mentioned the wing being removable as a unique feature. I am going to take that as a good sign. I truly hope it is a safe, simple, usable feature that will help market the airplane. NOW lets see IT! VIDEO darn it!
Phyrcooler
Well Known Member
RV-12 update...??
Van is supposed to give a presentation on the RV-12 tomorrow (Thursday) afternoon. I am hopeful for a better update (hopefully someone will take notes and share!). Maybe one of our fine folks in attendance can talk them into giving a demo of the wing removal/assembly that can be videoed as you are suggesting. I'd also be thrilled if someone would get a lot more detail shots of the FWF, panel. behind the panel, etc. - primarily give us more detail in the construction of the craft.
The wife has already given her stamp of approval on going to Osh next year... but for this year - I (and others) have to depend on you folks to be our eyes and ears out there!
Have fun/Be safe!!
DJ
Van is supposed to give a presentation on the RV-12 tomorrow (Thursday) afternoon. I am hopeful for a better update (hopefully someone will take notes and share!). Maybe one of our fine folks in attendance can talk them into giving a demo of the wing removal/assembly that can be videoed as you are suggesting. I'd also be thrilled if someone would get a lot more detail shots of the FWF, panel. behind the panel, etc. - primarily give us more detail in the construction of the craft.
The wife has already given her stamp of approval on going to Osh next year... but for this year - I (and others) have to depend on you folks to be our eyes and ears out there!
Have fun/Be safe!!
DJ
grantcarruthers
Well Known Member
Are removable wings really that big a selling point?? IMVHO there's lots of risk trailering to the airport each time, even if it's easy to do it still has to add an hour of farting around to get the plane running and then torn down and re-trailered, it's most likely impossible to do it without an assistant??
The only major selling point is saving on a hanger which is maybe 5% of my years operating cost?
No flames in any way, just curious what turns you guys onto it?
Thanks
Grant
The only major selling point is saving on a hanger which is maybe 5% of my years operating cost?
No flames in any way, just curious what turns you guys onto it?
Thanks
Grant
az_gila
Well Known Member
Removing wings...
My wife and I have got it down to 20 minutes for my Mini-Nimbus....
I'm just guessing here, but I bet Van has one a the several one-man rigging devices sold for his DG-500 motorglider.
Can any of the OR readers verify this?
In the large cities, hangar rents are $500+... or 6,000 a year. I hope the RV-12 operating costs are less than $120,000 a year...
An open trailer, one-man rigging equipment, and sharing a skinny space in an existing hangar may be the best idea for those who live in large cities...
gil in Tucson
PS .. I also bet the RV-12 wings are lighter than the 155 lbs each of the Mini-Nimbus...
Grant... check out the action at your local glider port.... wings come off and on every weekend on most privately owned glass sailplanes.grantcarruthers said:
My wife and I have got it down to 20 minutes for my Mini-Nimbus....
I'm just guessing here, but I bet Van has one a the several one-man rigging devices sold for his DG-500 motorglider.
Can any of the OR readers verify this?
In the large cities, hangar rents are $500+... or 6,000 a year. I hope the RV-12 operating costs are less than $120,000 a year...
An open trailer, one-man rigging equipment, and sharing a skinny space in an existing hangar may be the best idea for those who live in large cities...
gil in Tucson
PS .. I also bet the RV-12 wings are lighter than the 155 lbs each of the Mini-Nimbus...
grantcarruthers
Well Known Member
Yah my hanger is 100-150 a month depending on which of three vintages I take!!!!
6k a year IS an incentive.
6k a year IS an incentive.
Why I want removable wings
For now... I want to be a fair-weather flyer. Hangar space is expensive, tie down space is cheap. I figure I can tie the airplane down during the "flying months" and trailer it home once a year (ok, maybe twice to go flying on one of those wonderful December weekends when the OAT gets to 60 or so). If someone happens to have part of a hangar I can get into for the summer, great! If not it's not a show-stopper.
If I get injured or laid off work I can simply put the aircraft in the trailer and have one less monthly expense to worry about. No thoughts of, "Man, should I SELL it?" It's in the back yard, costing nothing to store.
For the future... My wife and I want to semi-retire in 12-14 years and do some full time RVing, just being air-conditioned gypsies (quick, before the petroleum runs out!) If I can't drag an airplane behind us then I can't really have an airplane.
Those two reasons have convinced me I need to look at airplanes with folding/removable wings. Who knows, maybe I'll get good at this aviation stuff after my first VFR machine and decide a Mustang II is right for me. I'm looking at the Sonex and RV-12 right now, I doubt if anything else would turn my head at this point in my research.
For now... I want to be a fair-weather flyer. Hangar space is expensive, tie down space is cheap. I figure I can tie the airplane down during the "flying months" and trailer it home once a year (ok, maybe twice to go flying on one of those wonderful December weekends when the OAT gets to 60 or so). If someone happens to have part of a hangar I can get into for the summer, great! If not it's not a show-stopper.
If I get injured or laid off work I can simply put the aircraft in the trailer and have one less monthly expense to worry about. No thoughts of, "Man, should I SELL it?" It's in the back yard, costing nothing to store.
For the future... My wife and I want to semi-retire in 12-14 years and do some full time RVing, just being air-conditioned gypsies (quick, before the petroleum runs out!) If I can't drag an airplane behind us then I can't really have an airplane.
Those two reasons have convinced me I need to look at airplanes with folding/removable wings. Who knows, maybe I'll get good at this aviation stuff after my first VFR machine and decide a Mustang II is right for me. I'm looking at the Sonex and RV-12 right now, I doubt if anything else would turn my head at this point in my research.
Phyrcooler
Well Known Member
Yeah - I was kind of ambivalent about the whole wing thing... but I am starting to see the value. Here in SoCal - IF you can get a hanger - you will pay dearly for it. I see myself using tie-downs most of the time with a good canopy cover - but being able to bring it home for service/annuals or if I won't be flying for some reason for an extended period. I am about 10 years out from retirement - and hadn't given much thought to towing it around. I actually hope to have a "Stretch-7" or a "Stretch-9" by then and be flying around the country vs. driving it. We'll see...
Removable Wings Perspective
For me, removable wings is a huge feature. I currently have a RV9A, that I built and am flying, and my LARGEST fixed cost is a $300./month (that's $3600./year) hanger rent. If you take that feature out of the equation, I would be seriously looking at the RANS S-19 which I feel looks better and has the sliding canopy feature I prefer. There are companies like MOBILE HANGAR that have worked with companies like REMOS AIRCRAFT on providing some very nice trailers with "docking platforms" that make locating and securing easy. You can even have the trailer built with external tiedowns so you might be able to pay for an outside tiedown spot at your local airport and keep the aircraft at the airport. I talked with Van about having a removable horizontal stabilizer and he said that he is not planning on having that feature. Needing an 8 ft. span, for the HS along with "cushion" is going to make an enclosed trailer more costly. The other thing that "bugs" me is most people that I have talked with FROM Van's, excluding Van himself, really "play down" this removable wing feature. I can understand if a person has unlimited funds or a free hanger, but otherwise I feel it remains a very strong selling feature for some "poor folks" like me who would reather buy fuel than support the local county government.
For me, removable wings is a huge feature. I currently have a RV9A, that I built and am flying, and my LARGEST fixed cost is a $300./month (that's $3600./year) hanger rent. If you take that feature out of the equation, I would be seriously looking at the RANS S-19 which I feel looks better and has the sliding canopy feature I prefer. There are companies like MOBILE HANGAR that have worked with companies like REMOS AIRCRAFT on providing some very nice trailers with "docking platforms" that make locating and securing easy. You can even have the trailer built with external tiedowns so you might be able to pay for an outside tiedown spot at your local airport and keep the aircraft at the airport. I talked with Van about having a removable horizontal stabilizer and he said that he is not planning on having that feature. Needing an 8 ft. span, for the HS along with "cushion" is going to make an enclosed trailer more costly. The other thing that "bugs" me is most people that I have talked with FROM Van's, excluding Van himself, really "play down" this removable wing feature. I can understand if a person has unlimited funds or a free hanger, but otherwise I feel it remains a very strong selling feature for some "poor folks" like me who would reather buy fuel than support the local county government.
grantcarruthers said:
I went to Oshosk really looking foward to seeing the RV-12, but I came away very disappointed. I went to Van's three mornings in a row trying to figure out why I was not happy with the RV-12. I had planned to order a tail kit at the show, but they were not taking orders, also they would not let anyone sit in the airplane. I looked at the Nine sitting next to it and I thought now that looks like real airplane. I walked just a short distance away and looked at the Rans S-19 also three mornings in arow. It looked like a small RV-9, nice looking airplane, but very expensive. To me the twelve was not impressive. I have built two RVs and presently fly my Nine which is a fantastic airplane. I really like the folding wing feature on the Twelve because I could take it with me when I leave Florida in the summer to get away from the heat. I have enjoyed doing business with Vans because they are very customer oriented. I might change my mind on the Twelve when they start giving demo rides. I think I am going to take a wait and see attitude for now.
Gerry
RV-9, N92GC & Cub, NC88583
Gerry
RV-9, N92GC & Cub, NC88583
Gerry, I agree 100%. I was at the show Monday, Tuesday & Wednesday. The first place I went to on Monday morning was Van's display. I took some pictures of the -12, but generally disappointed in the airplane. It is much smaller than I thought it would be. Looks like a toy sitting next to the -9 on display. I never did get a straight answer as to why no one was allowed to sit in the plane. When I walked past the display Tuesday, Van was in front of the -12, and IIRC he said:
1. Removable wings are here to stay.
2. They expect someone will provide a light kit.
3. Not sure when demo rides will be available.
4. The Rotax engine is here to stay.
5. They may partner with someone to provide a trailer.
6. Tail kits available at the end of the year.
7. Wheel pants may be a option.
I too will wait and see how this plays out. The Ran's S-19 looks nice painted, and may provide some good competition for the -12. Before I buy anything, I want to fly it.
Jim
1. Removable wings are here to stay.
2. They expect someone will provide a light kit.
3. Not sure when demo rides will be available.
4. The Rotax engine is here to stay.
5. They may partner with someone to provide a trailer.
6. Tail kits available at the end of the year.
7. Wheel pants may be a option.
I too will wait and see how this plays out. The Ran's S-19 looks nice painted, and may provide some good competition for the -12. Before I buy anything, I want to fly it.
Jim
E. D. Eliot
Well Known Member
Removable wings - trailerability
Yeah - it's a hugh deal with me. I currently live about 10 miles from the closest SoCAl airport to me. Wouldn't mind trailering my 12 at all for maintenance and the security of home. I am retiring soon and simply can't afford a hanger. Hope that I'm not priced out of this hobby.
Yeah - it's a hugh deal with me. I currently live about 10 miles from the closest SoCAl airport to me. Wouldn't mind trailering my 12 at all for maintenance and the security of home. I am retiring soon and simply can't afford a hanger. Hope that I'm not priced out of this hobby.
Miffed!!
I guess the best advertisement for the Vans product has to be the 100 plus Airplanes on the ground. I'm sure it's the most of any experimental or Certified out there. Has to be.
What I don't understand is that the company MUST know that hard info, and real demonstrations are what we as prospective buyers are wanting. Especially, after waiting for a whole year from last AirVenture, when only the mock up was present. Why is there a hesitant nature to sell the plane? Show off the **** plane. Two negative write ups from board members in two days. We all know that Van's planes virtually sell themselves but darn it, throw a dog a bone! Please!
I guess the best advertisement for the Vans product has to be the 100 plus Airplanes on the ground. I'm sure it's the most of any experimental or Certified out there. Has to be.
What I don't understand is that the company MUST know that hard info, and real demonstrations are what we as prospective buyers are wanting. Especially, after waiting for a whole year from last AirVenture, when only the mock up was present. Why is there a hesitant nature to sell the plane? Show off the **** plane. Two negative write ups from board members in two days. We all know that Van's planes virtually sell themselves but darn it, throw a dog a bone! Please!
Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
Probably more like 500.
Could it be that the design hasn't been finalized, and the plane is not yet ready to "sell"?? (See updates on Vans website)
Rest assured, when the RV-12 is ready...Vans will sell it.
Patience.
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rvpilot
Well Known Member
I aggree with Sam...
Patience!
Van's will sell no plane before it's time! After all, this is the prove of concept plane, had it been the final design, things mighta been different. I bet they are as anxious to get the plane ready as any of us are.
By the way, I'm still wondering where the other $114,000.00/year is being spent!
Patience!
Van's will sell no plane before it's time! After all, this is the prove of concept plane, had it been the final design, things mighta been different. I bet they are as anxious to get the plane ready as any of us are.
By the way, I'm still wondering where the other $114,000.00/year is being spent!
rangelyflyer
I'm New Here
Best thing Vans's could do.
The best thing Vans could do is engineer a custom trailer or trailer kit w/custom wing dollies for the 12 and sell them as accessories. This would take priority or a QB or SLSA. If They are going to bet the success of the 12 on the removeable wings - they need to follow through with a trailer.
The best thing Vans could do is engineer a custom trailer or trailer kit w/custom wing dollies for the 12 and sell them as accessories. This would take priority or a QB or SLSA. If They are going to bet the success of the 12 on the removeable wings - they need to follow through with a trailer.
E. D. Eliot
Well Known Member
Removable wings
I am told that a T-hanger at TOA (Torrance, CA) costs $500/month with an 8 year waiting list. Add to that, the convenience of doing maintenance at home and the fact that nobody will have a chance to rip off your avionics or engine if its at home in a locked garage.
Its a big deal to me - guess I'll get pretty good at removing/installing the wings. I'll have to put up with towing a trailer in SOCAL.
Anybody know which affordable air rivet gun will do the best job?
I am told that a T-hanger at TOA (Torrance, CA) costs $500/month with an 8 year waiting list. Add to that, the convenience of doing maintenance at home and the fact that nobody will have a chance to rip off your avionics or engine if its at home in a locked garage.
Its a big deal to me - guess I'll get pretty good at removing/installing the wings. I'll have to put up with towing a trailer in SOCAL.
Anybody know which affordable air rivet gun will do the best job?
E. D. Eliot said:
Don't be in a rush to buy tools (that you may not need).
A pneumatic rivet gun is not supposed to be required (the airplane is mostly blind (pop) style rivets. Unless you are talking about a pneumatic rivet puller for blind rivets...that would be nice to have. The $50 cheapy from harbor freight works great.
E. D. Eliot
Well Known Member
Pneumatic Rivet Puller
Thanks for the reply.
Yeah - pneumatic rivet puller is what I think I need for the 12. I rebuilt an Airstream Trailer interior years ago and even though I had a high quality hand rivet puller, my hands got pretty sore. Don't want that experience again.
Also, is it possible that a pneumatic puller might give more consistent results??? I want to have a quality set of tools ready when I begin construction and think that a pneumatic rivet puller might be the key tool of them all.
Anybody have experience in this area? Thanks again.
Thanks for the reply.
Yeah - pneumatic rivet puller is what I think I need for the 12. I rebuilt an Airstream Trailer interior years ago and even though I had a high quality hand rivet puller, my hands got pretty sore. Don't want that experience again.
Also, is it possible that a pneumatic puller might give more consistent results??? I want to have a quality set of tools ready when I begin construction and think that a pneumatic rivet puller might be the key tool of them all.
Anybody have experience in this area? Thanks again.
Trailering Requirements
I agree with this. At Sun-N-Fun (2007) I spent some time looking at the Remos/Mobile Hanger partnership. I noted that the Remos design has a removable Horizontal Stabilizer which would also help those who are thinking about trailering. Van told me he would not entertain a removable HS so it would be up to the builder to modify. If I wasn't going to use the trailering feature, I think I would look at the Rans S-19 much closer. And this coming from a person who absolutely loves his 9A!
Ron Drake
rangelyflyer said:
I agree with this. At Sun-N-Fun (2007) I spent some time looking at the Remos/Mobile Hanger partnership. I noted that the Remos design has a removable Horizontal Stabilizer which would also help those who are thinking about trailering. Van told me he would not entertain a removable HS so it would be up to the builder to modify. If I wasn't going to use the trailering feature, I think I would look at the Rans S-19 much closer. And this coming from a person who absolutely loves his 9A!
Ron Drake
