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AndyWW
02-12-2018, 09:39 AM
My co-owners and I are looking at putting an autopilot and a Garmin G5 (or possibly 2) into our bought-flying VFR RV-6. It has a six-pack steam panel and we aren't planning to do a full panel upgrade at this time, so we are seeking improvements that fit into 3.125" holes and will look good mixed with the remaining gauges. We like the G5 a lot since it is bright, easy on the eyes and good value for money. However the Garmin autopilot control head isn't available in a round hole format as far as I am aware.

So the current front-runner solution is to replace the AI with a G5, replace the DG with another G5 (plus magnetometer) for HSI (so that we can rip out the vacuum system), and replace our (broken) TC with a Trutrak Vizion 3 autopilot.

My questions are:
1) Does this make sense as a solution? Is there a better option?
2) Will the G5 play nicely with the Vizion?
3) If the G5 failed would the autoilot still provide wing leveller and altitude hold?
4) We have a Skymap IIIC which I think might be able to interface with the Vizion, but I'm not sure. Anyone tried it?

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions.

BobTurner
02-12-2018, 12:06 PM
Take a look at the Trio Pro. I have a preference for a clutch connected servo (Trio) which is physically disconnected when not in use.
I?m not sure any non-Garmin equipment plays well with Garmin, they tend to keep some software interfaces propriatary. Have you looked at the GRT mini series? I know they interface with Trio and TruTrak.

olyolson
02-12-2018, 03:55 PM
Andy,

You will like the G5 setup and you can even get a single or dual flush mount to make the panel look really nice. I have a magnetometer for my single G5 (with backup battery) and have ditched the whiskey compass for good. I really like all the info available in the G5 and it is plenty bright enough in direct sunlight.

I concur with the Trio Pro Pilot autopilot with gold servos. Trio makes a great product, excellent support and the Pro Pilot fits a standard 3 1/8? hole. My trio works well and will fly all the approaches in my Aera 660 which is tied into the Trio via RS 232. I have the EZ Pilot (course/hdg) and the EZ-3 (altitude) which is a bit cheaper but very capable.

Oly

g3xpert
02-12-2018, 07:54 PM
Hello Andy,

We appreciate that everyone has to decide what is important to them, but we want to make sure that you realize that we have a new rack that makes it easy to mount the GMC 507 (or GMC 307) in the radio stack in case that is an option for you in that big RV-6 panel. Once the rack is installed, the two pawl latches make it simple to install/remove the GMC 307/507.

We also encourage you to think about the ergonomics of using your autopilot. There is simply no better autopilot user interface than the G5 with GMC 507. Autopilot lateral and vertical modes, and even a flight director that is usable both with and without the autopilot engaged, are conveniently displayed on the G5.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pB3hV20_R-_7pm5fblo7wnhocJ0YjseL8hfrYOZjncfxNisbEliqwdDd-HT_ppudifTSm5d5_9UVxXivi57-B-gS8TpsgbFlVCDbAVE67gzcn-ZGQojRbPvQh00X-tAjZbpUAytHDbcoduveuyxhXj5n8uVAtw6DkgaPKTyfkeT_l6F p5tEBI2AmT-HXSzlU7zdbOxcPWXphvJELI5r1y0DCi_PSzoS-fxlbHIV7uWexPfIqMgWxRY_jqyJBNCHQrQPsuBf4oVI6G7QggK PZhNV7j7T3vrrWPXNDBMTwmaPj7O1CI5Kr0_ylC44msEJXIEgR k3iajscoMzj_Xip4YKYCCz1-OV-RSGLmsMsx2dWua_uuKVyKzTJdOWd58QvQ5T6sJBSNM6Ayp4pK6 ZLQFOK0rydVUrfGy7uRWDN3YhAF5ak77p9i-p6qE47Qhz22F7m3fEF7PvZnz6OA6HHDf8ACjdjPKRUsFVzqlWF n-Sumg9NTy1oT9hFx980qnf6wPcoH2UW3BSJBseeT8iIWs-N6OVC7CijmLGkLqs5EimDGn-qSziIINl8URF2j7Iqp6dPu_oP_QqYCqxcd6cIgrxgeEpbSWbhK WOuFWBk=w640

To review the operation of this autopilot, let's fly to Oshkosh and see how simple and efficient it is to operate the G5 based autopilot with the GMC 507. For this flight, we will use the Aera 660 as the navigator for the autopilot.

Before departing, we put a flight plan including RIPON to FISKE arrival into the Aera 660.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/BvvQvDe8Awam8O8Cwso62ILak5SPfQEshTjjPUPXbBfseXUP7r lu2Sq-N2aJHJCWXxcW12nhaMrd0HpZtOHywCjtwF20yBMlwgx8Ytyx_P YMmXRPfhTtknDFd5L2pYuYARpqiOCsBQP8nh9sZjaodH0vGDz5 VQf98N1bdiKdYcDMGazZqkWoFbfrFbXKyFtu200zvtozhDCS8h fpMMm7C677QL5ei6AGMUiyWCqy63bU8G_oyCLJQVVYmwl8xY0I ucA_0_sBmPMKcYV4qB_rIIXG3Or3G7Rp625HdUBcJcdYAMOT5-28cc-KEtjFtc0nfHgNMn9tnSY22YQCWM-hWO0lWtXu8E_6l3tH8DYzvfcvRojLs87DDmH7GVZHnMFi14wXm _3M3_z7XLML5qZQfRVaIb6Yu6hqvqlLcXRI-8W2BPjw9WmLh7lmUpmC0jqZVL3mTPDSDNiQuauIynifAN300dv n0jTQZxQmVUeZRJbPnbDtTywOgzMU1iDPvY1HXt13j54ITQFXJ dleWvU0cZ07VVROs1fMai4sDrb8dEqmtjWdflMAkWh9W044C7v JYpl7qeDFUd_wqJ08sFhPpCTAeWosxJlur33RRyc=w454-h754-no

Next, we will setup VNAV to automatically descend the aircraft to 1,800 ft MSL by 3 nm before RIPON for the published VFR arrival.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/23B3a3KHu3oKw7bS7k079zjzP1gMD_PzWs3f-1hu4gZBZUkC9iCgZB4p1ZozcDQgKFHAVLxT1N8-ChVbFq4AuiTmjM4zB9qsHVKb6PF8nX1gS8782YpxeeqXbrS4N3 4_z7X2BMZQscgMz75EDZfSDtpzM-UMU7IdG0TpNHAr9gGX3RV-yKBGX7ZtGjdiRe5mQi_Rt_tna4mGrtizhRCC4f57dROyP1TCPK tx-gYCWYEOeVuDrV38h7A3qLWQ_M_uoQLVY6lGNX8WV6dXeE9USmt WF8IXowP63usUxRTZZnaRxmb0LtUpTJcwXMtPmIImzQN4QnE0c kLecuVdrGxLnkHADwnH9ogce0UuZT1RvEwtcbrofpMKdX_nMv0 j6oRPbzgw2JML0-MsEX-NuFDkfJV7BVwyZWPtZPOt-kgKz4rZv10kOLOS9eda4c_jbobQeH0bO8p0ikljv-2Z-g01gvTdIVDtwqF9ycdBXM1MunYLR_PsTeCox0C5LbsKa3Esm2n fpfbOvlPAsDUFfLcqWuBlIl3MUbHyFwYebXVL97IOCBWFcSWhZ RwzuabO93_hVuMncGK5zAikBI9EP0gy6eCYNDr0_J8A1x_rTCI 9ifFE9rTH003iBkgLHgnS-RLW=w454-h754-no

One last step is to enter our enroute cruise altitude into the G5. We use the ALT SEL knob on the GMC 507 to do this since it is tightly integrated with the G5. The works all done, so let's depart and enjoy the many features of this easy to use autopilot.

After taking off, we turn the plane on course as shown on the HSI and establish our climb. At this point we simply push the AP button to engage the autopilot in ROL (lateral) and PIT (vertical) modes, and let go of the stick. Nothing moves as we smoothly continue our climb straight ahead with the autopilot engaged.

The autopilot automatically arms to capture the selected altitude (9500').

Next, push the NAV button on the GMC 507 to couple the autopilot laterally to the flight plan in the Aera 660.

While using pitch mode in the climb, you can use the large, convenient pitch wheel to change pitch. Roll the wheel forward to lower the nose and roll the wheel down to raise the nose. All of the large buttons, knobs, and wheel on the GMC 507 are easy to use, even with light gloves.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/y3uqbABM073kb8RQ85mbj7IjxqwkzyeSys-9gIjk-d7G4iVtpX3ZifBEgjojjL9m5QmGkil2X-XEF2eVZqUeTe3zAZQKJDD1vN7VtaMKVyxofe58kI9jOwmu1KRi hHZjXDihTgNEUIPbzC349tLF47Zw6vQ55xyBNLDXmMTOye7k8U hWgKgSiY1PgmyMc2YZ3ykvdCfruWQqi8b2pESoE_I3K22z544x a2dS_OOYgD66cgxVWlSZEfgEIy4ecTNH17t-2AGFWeBLbt6l-mTloOKKVNx_fs5YR0DwAt_6WvNtYfqYPLFW_g90tYVcQiHamVU 3k-F2OnIRFkD3MoxvXXSbsuJMjZxpehJzbZomKa8AbiM8dOHxfuvi VDbTl1xsfc7s5wco2XrNT5LOCQf4VjaNujaRRPHINrW-U0nbcfRySumx2DEXMO8OrBxrhjsJms6m4N8hNK3OILwOQPOmqo NuGfLc07IyL2I7MeCHBN4V4MHEuZC9p5BYABIgl0Ib0WoKl4P-EpBhfR9xd4oyHOV46tTG-LGWUKTyXOKBpI3N2tHFqB0S7I-nMzIDZsHNgmfJnumozrOnmxpF46d4_PAi9ewYVKfe62dh3fE=w 640

There are many autopilot options to use in the climb. If you want to switch from pitch mode to vertical speed mode, just push the VS button. The autopilot will capture the current vertical speed, then you use the pitch wheel to increase or decrease the vertical speed and the vertical speed in use is "bugged" on the G5 and displayed numerically in the autopilot status bar on the G5.

As you climb in altitude and airspeed drops as you maintain selected pitch or vertical speed, you can press one button (IAS) to switch to airspeed hold mode to protect your airspeed in the climb. Selected airspeed is "bugged" on the airspeed tape on the G5, and also changed with the pitch wheel on the GMC 507.

Let's say you encounter some scattered clouds in the climb and want to deviate around them and return to the course line. Just push the HDG/TRK knob to sync selected HDG/TRK to current HDG/TRK, then push the TRK (or HDG) button and use the HDG/TRK knob to steer the aircraft around the clouds. When you are clear, just push the NAV button to automatically return to the course line.

Alternatively, you can push the AP button to disengage the the autopilot while leaving the flight director setup in the selected lateral and vertical modes, hand fly the aircraft around the clouds, then simply press one button (AP) to re-engage the autopilot and return to flying the previous lateral/vertical modes.

Once you reach the 9500' selected altitude, the autopilot will automatically capture this altitude and enter altitude hold mode.

Once you are established in level cruise, you can arm for VNAV capture. Again, just push one button (VNAV) and you are all set to automatically descend at your selected descent rate to the 1800' altitude required at RIPON. You can even select the "Time To VNAV" field as one of the 8 continuously displayed fields on the Aera 660 as a reminder how much longer you will remain at cruise altitude before beginning the descent.

I could go on longer, but you get the idea. Let us know if you have questions.

Thanks,
Steve

g3xpert
02-13-2018, 08:07 AM
I?ll take this opportunity to ask a question about the G5/507 AP.

When returning to NAV after having deviated with HDG/TRK, how does it return:
30 degree intercept to the original line, direct towards the next waypoint or something else, configurable???

Hello Control,

Page 67 of the Rev. G G5 Pilot's Guide (http://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-02072-00_G.pdf) explains use of the NAV lateral mode and provides this information on active flight plan leg intercepts:

When intercepting a flight plan leg, the flight director gives commands
to capture the active leg at approximately a 45? angle.

Thanks,
Steve

AndyWW
02-13-2018, 08:08 AM
The problem I have with the Garmin control heads is that it would require major panel surgery to put in a rectangular box, whereas the round ones can easily fit a redundant spot. If Garmin has any plans for a round autopilot control head they would have a new customer for sure!

g3xpert
02-13-2018, 08:25 AM
The problem I have with the Garmin control heads is that it would require major panel surgery to put in a rectangular box, whereas the round ones can easily fit a redundant spot. If Garmin has any plans for a round autopilot control head they would have a new customer for sure!

Hello Andy,

Yes, we understood this from your original posting, but I must have failed in communicating the advantages of having large, dedicated, easy to access and use controls for all autopilot functions.

If we want our planes to have a great user interface for an autopilot, perhaps we need to allocate more, and possibly a different space in our panels, besides the round holes.

Putting the user interface provided by the GMC 507 into a 3.125" round hole would result in very small buttons and knobs, and perhaps no pitch wheel at all, probably resulting in a poor user experience.

Thanks,
Steve

jakej
02-13-2018, 08:45 PM
Steve, Is the G5 nmea output suitable for all the common autopilots ?

AndyWW
02-14-2018, 07:59 AM
And assuming the answer to Jake's question above is yes, what is the refresh frequency for the GPS position data that the G5 outputs?
Thanks very much.

g3xpert
02-14-2018, 09:01 AM
Steve, Is the G5 nmea output suitable for all the common autopilots ?

Hello Jake,

The G5 RS-232 output may be configured for NMEA at either 4800 or 9600 baud to provide basic GPS data to external devices, but most of us would want a navigator like the Aera 660 to provide NMEA data to an autopilot.

The NMEA data from a navigator like the Aera 660 allows an autopilot like the G5 to couple to a direct-to or flight plan, and even follow vertical navigation (VNAV) from the Aera 660 to descend from cruise altitude and automatically reach pattern altitude at the destination airport at a user specified (configured) distance out from the airport.

In the image above, the Aera 660 is playing the role of the navigator (providing lateral and vertical guidance using NMEA data) for the G5 autopilot.

Just to be clear, if you want to see the autopilot modes and flight director on the G5 display, you need to be using the G5 as your autopilot.

Thanks,
Steve

AndyWW
02-14-2018, 01:13 PM
Thanks very much Steve. From your post can I infer that I could get a G5 to drive some GSA28 servos directly without needing a GMC307? That might be another possibility for us.

I think I may have failed to be clear enough on my other question. I was asking how many times per second the G5 outputs the GPS position. The Trutrak autopilot documentation (but I guess it's true for all autopilots) said that to get the best performance the refresh rate needs to be better than once per second.

g3xpert
02-15-2018, 09:20 AM
Thanks very much Steve. From your post can I infer that I could get a G5 to drive some GSA28 servos directly without needing a GMC307? That might be another possibility for us.

I think I may have failed to be clear enough on my other question. I was asking how many times per second the G5 outputs the GPS position. The Trutrak autopilot documentation (but I guess it's true for all autopilots) said that to get the best performance the refresh rate needs to be better than once per second.

Hello Andy,

You are welcome.

While the G5 and GSA 28 servos are the main part of this autopilot, there is no user interface on the G5 for moding the autopilot (for good reason!), so you do need the buttons/knobs/wheel provided by the GMC 307/507 to have an operational autopilot.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/5xyjheG_aLVAvTOTGs_wTSK3Fzd-XzM56nG43QCdFtn1DxZ-4jW2VOx8qA8IlGyIlGLiqowEuF13w3dSXeG8UpWlZ27VBLy9hv bN6Kxk_zqCSG7-bH5ls7-PiJd4XQRbtjPrts0LRH5wyXbCN4MdIuauwaGnyEgLGrxjIr70y Ruxa7pj-7-N3ywVqEIhNrNcB4oU9_jTlUGmGvTXlf5Yd3fAmj73pH3hkdNid rMl1Krwf3sM_vu0prPqLcIwfmzeEX4Vcf7nfbKodVDP_5FkFTL Qus3YOROSr6P8NpYBD0qf563WzTivwQbHMUm9N-ZjwA3G74J0vLArQab9j2iDYLcXM4tiiIn4xyghgWMqDyw9fqGH T9fsObsywPJpwkSSRqw8K6W6RAjJdcasp1VbHp5_Q50vcaAa7Z LKPS0eZpiDEwTi0SnQdFgHHSEV3uRTggG1kYf7ZtCKb5HDqd0v kWUyYgP0M1pRsiD28siekQZGUGmByLK_R9hV1ekJhsRe_ZHKHf jcjemJ_XZDG3jOH_xh8qax5fva2Y69irdVA1Vh6UlpbZpYbvuo l9hBs5dGLf9RibQl0lu_CdNTqj9LEheQcPuWtZCzC0wyBXfbIh c9zSSjlOsrEaNzLKegoCVX=w480

The G5 internal WAAS GPS updates at several Hz and the NMEA output is updated at 1 Hz, but again, it is somewhat irrelevant what the update rate of the G5 NMEA output is since you would want to drive an external autopilot with a navigator, not the G5.

Besides, an autopilot should not be dependent on the update rate of the navigator (within reason) to fly the plane smoothly. The GPS TRK, XTK, and speed provided by the navigator are only parts of the flight director solution which incorporates high speed attitude and air sensor data to constantly derive the gain filtered pitch/roll rate used to fly the required heading, track, course, altitude, climb, pitch, roll, etc.

High end IFR navigators like the GNS/GTN provide roll angle steering data over A429 which gives the autopilot more to work with, but VFR navigators providing NMEA data over RS-232 do not provide roll steering data, but this is no problem for the G5 autopilot.

The Aera 660 also outputs NMEA data at 1Hz, which is plenty fast enough for the G5 autopilot to smoothly fly the plane and track a flight plan both laterally and vertically.

Thanks,
Steve

andymeyer
06-12-2018, 09:49 PM
Steve,

If the 307 or 507 is coupled to a GNS430W or other VNAV capable GPS navigator, will it fly the vertical portion of an LPV approach to minimums like the Trio and others? Will the G5 display flight director cues when appropriately coupled?

Does it have airspeed protections (minimum airspeed during climbs, maximum during descents)?

Will it fly a fixed airspeed (KIAS) climb or descent?

I am considering making this upgrade, but can't find sufficient information on the capabilities afforded by each potential configuration.

Regards,

Andy

g3xpert
06-13-2018, 08:07 AM
Steve,

If the 307 or 507 is coupled to a GNS430W or other VNAV capable GPS navigator, will it fly the vertical portion of an LPV approach to minimums like the Trio and others? Will the G5 display flight director cues when appropriately coupled?

Yes, a G5 based autopilot with GMC 507 autopilot control panel and a GAD 29 A429 interface connected with an appropriate GNS/GTN navigator (like the 430W) can fly both ILS and LPV approaches to minimums.

All G5 based autopilot systems include a flight director that can be used both with the autopilot engaged, and when hand flying the aircraft. This example shows a dual G5 system, but if you have an analog CDI connected to your GNS 430W you may use that instead of the second G5. The GMU 11 magnetometer is optional if you want to use HDG mode. You still have TRK (GPS track) mode even without a magnetometer.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kwH7Z_GFT-R-vyPF6-FueVzYq_nfslzz1RYxYZXiNJ4tksomYzXgPGokRnZpgzdUL_KI lYUzSoy0_vbCCdpHjQrXSpFPXaSg7yf3JqPrGl2h3Dx65ycnlW p0yxiuP5tK40YzkYYFcVe3QzushanAw9CRy1HJa0vpKrj2ENtj 1BCbLNIAH7Yw_DzNJ-oeDyrQmcNbLvbeKRMeeT69N1mUsjzoPwkFo_XHl5AIC__eKqUh b-ykv0RaW8HTCm4TkfaZIx6uPC8tPmHhsgnwqSsNCAd73pPUsS1Z Gp-xHKZsdOYczHABXuLBTdSmvsHH9Fbs3CLt3bu1wPsrZnqNZhxS7 cP9LTs8YRchDox_sD-V1KAUVKDMFvPuP7i8nI44XHTMftT_c5h-c2pvlnGz6GK6378gpY2k5ATRH0AjzpGCa33iKwc4-5C09ywkRmYG2l2NnYVLFA6TeGZecP_IKBWyQ-aGBv0IFyGW54b5NpwRmp5VEGWKYszDxGkSZnuV9DGsHb3eSADp tvAHasMLarYoASmHuJjR2tdUsm7rmTm1Zfy-vCPE-cnFGitfzdJdqYG68_Bo07L5I4G3hhHA2RyKl-eb0Bvhb8a8X9_f20s=w650

Does it have airspeed protections (minimum airspeed during climbs, maximum during descents)?

Yes, you program in the minimum/maximum airspeed limits for your aircraft, and the autpilot will raise/lower the nose as needed to protect those airspeed limits.

Will it fly a fixed airspeed (KIAS) climb or descent?

Yes, as shown above, the GMC 507 has an IAS button which may be used to perform constant airspeed climbs/descents.

I am considering making this upgrade, but can't find sufficient information on the capabilities afforded by each potential configuration.

Regards,

Andy

Let us know if you need anything else. Here is a link to our price sheet (https://www8.garmin.com/aviation/pdfs/experimental_pricing.pdf) if you need this information.

Thanks,
Steve