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Battery Charging Question

hevansrv7a

Well Known Member
This question applies only to the Concorde RG battery (which I got from Van's). Is there any good reason not to use an automotive charger of the type that is self regulated and turns on a green light when fully charged? If so, please try to explain in layman's (my) terms.
Thanks.
 
The Concord RG is a AGM (absorbed gas mat) lead acid battery that needs a special charger. All AGM batteries need to be charged with a charger designed for them. I believe if the charger is pushing more than 14.5 volts it should not be used. I'm going by memory here so no flaming for being a 1/2 volt off. :p

This is the type of charger I'm talking about. They are a good investment as you can use them as battery conditioners (desulfating) on all types of 12V batteries.

http://www.vdcelectronics.com/

A buddy of mine has a Black & Decker that does the same thing for $60.00 at Home Depot or Walmart.
 
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Geico266 said:
The Concord RG is a AGM (absorbed gas mat) lead acid battery that needs a special charger. All AGM batteries need to be charged with a charger designed for them. I believe if the charger is pushing more than 14.5 volts it should not be used. I'm going by memory here so no flaming for being a 1/2 volt off. :p

This is the type of charger I'm talking about. They are a good investment as you can use them as battery conditioners (desulfating) on all types of 12V batteries.

http://www.vdcelectronics.com/

A buddy of mine has a Black & Decker that does the same thing for $60.00 at Home Depot or Walmart.
Is a AGM the same as a VRLA? Concorde says this is a VRLA:
http://concordebattery.com/flyer.php?id=36
Do you have the model on the B&D?
Thanks
 
Acronyms!

(AGM) absorbed class mat
(SLA) sealed lead acid (sometimes maintence free)
(FLA) flooded lead acid
(VRLA) valve regulated lead acid (just the vent technology)
(GelCel) (different technology than AGM)
(RG) Recombinant Gas (why it can be sealed, but will vent of overcharged)

There's some overlap & name dropping, but the main "technology" is the AGM part (I think some use interchangeably with SLA correctly or not). The RG-25XC spec does say AGM specifically, as well as VRLA and RG for bragging. So this battery is like a Odyssey P680, an AGM battery. The main "technology" is the AGM part, which also are RG and have VRLA.

All batteries need some kind of pressure relief. VRLA means some kind of valve verses no valve at all, just a vent. AGM should not vent any gas unless it gases off due to massive overcharging for extended time (volts over 15). So the vent is closed but the valve opens when needed. AGM does have lead plates and acid, just suspended in mats verses sloshing around as a liquid or gel, so VRLA is just fancy talk.

AMG batteries need a special charger if you want automatic charging, set-it & forget-it. YOU CAN USE A PLAIN CAR CHARGER WITH CARE. You have to time it and manually disconnect the charger; you can't leave it on for too long or you'll damage the battery.

For example at 11.5 volts a AGM is considered 100% discharged. You need a charger of about 10amp for a PC680, suspect that's fine for a RG-25XC. The max charge time with a 10amp charger is 2 hours for the P680. If the battery is not fully 100% discharged, than you need to reduce charge time, may be a lot, like 10-20-30 minutes. Overcharging damages the battery. The 100% charge voltage for a AMG is around 12.84 volts ideally, but you want to see at least 12.6 volts or more after you disconnect the charge and manually measure open voltage. You need a 10 amp charger or larger. Charge times are much much less with a larger charger. You need at least 7 amps I recall for the PC680 sized battery to get full charge. Volts under 14.2-14.3 will not fully charge a Odyssey AMG battery.

The fancy chargers designed for AMG batteries have 3 stage logic. Odyssey explains this in great detail on page 12 of their tech manual:

http://www.odysseybatteries.com/files/techbook.pdf

Not all chargers for AGM are the same. They all might work OK, but some may have more logic and protections, including temp compensation. Just be aware of what your AMG needs to rapid charge (constant current), absorb charge (constant volts) and float. Don't overcharge it or connect it to a float charger in a discharged state, neither are goodness. One results in battery damage and one just does not help much.

If you use a new charger you have to watch them to see how they're programed, or ask the manufacture if its not spelled out like the odyssey tech manual describes.

Personally I'm not a big fan of leaving electical stuff connected in an unattended hanger, especially charging batteries in the plane. Its also against local fire code (and you insurance?). Extension cords and/or charging unattended batteries have burned hangers down before. If the battery has an internal failure or the charger fails wide open it could get HOT. A little 1.5 or 3 amp trickle charger may be safer, but they will not fully charge or condition a AGM battery. AMG batteries have very good shelf life. If your battery can't take a week or more sitting, than you need to replace it. It should be fully charged after a flight right. Your planes charge system needs to be at least 14.2-14.3 volts at the battery.

CHARGERS
Here is a nice charger: http://www.thebatteryminder.com/12vbatteryminder-p-58.html or LINK
It even has battery temp compensation if you want (fancy fancy but cool). Not used one but this does seem to be a true three stage charger. It does say not for aircraft batteries but they sell a line of "aviation chargers" which are more expensive. A Odyssey P680 is a Harley Davidson/BMW motorcycle battery so it should be fine. Here is another 3 stage charger: http://www.samlexamerica.com/products/productdescription.asp?ProductsID=8056

Schumacher Chargers: LINK. These models: SC-1000A, SSC-1000A, SC-1200A, SSC-1500A and SC-2500A have a AGM selection and are in the 10-25 amp range. Can't verify how good they work charging AGM, not tried them, but they do make good chargers; I'v got one of there basic ones. These SC or SSC chargers go for about $50 to $80.
http://store.schumachermart.com/battery-chargers-automotive-speed-chargers.html

I just bought a SSC-1500A from ebay for less than $50 with shipping. I need another charger anyway.

One last one is this: http://batterytender.com/product_info.php?products_id=2 (5 amps max is less than the 6 amps that Odyssey recommends for the P680 but I am sure it work. Looking at their tech info it sounds like they know what they are doing. They have a whole line of little battery maintainers (trickle chargers) which would not charge the battery fully but might work well for maintaining a fully charged battery.
 
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If you leave a generic trickle charger on any aviation battery it will kill it!

It shortens the life by about half!

Using the charger i mentioned above will increase your battery life by a factor of 2 or 3. Expect 3 to 5 years on a Concorde if maintained with one of these.

(This is what all the manufacturers have told me of both batteries and chargers.)

dave T
Lancair Legacy
 
New Info

Actually the BatteryMinder Model 12248-AA-S1 is designed for any Concorde or Gill aviation battery.

as far as i know its the only one the manufactures endorse.

dave t.
lancair legacy
 
how to test a battery properly?

lots of good info here on charging....but I'd like to know if my battery is operating at full capacity, or is likely to leave me on some distant ramp!

Can I test the cranking amps with a typical load test unit, like the guys at the garage do for my car?... apparently this will show the CCA rating, and seriously discharges the battery, so a full re-charge is required.

Question #2;
I am not in a hangar, or near power, so does anyone have a successful solar charger setup? I put a little 9w panel on mine for the winter, but it didn't keep it at even 12.6 volts...the voltage kept dropping slowly.

This spring, after sitting for almost 9 months, my Concorde started the 0-320 several times at about 65 degrees F. It has been about 6 years in the plane, but even sitting for many winters with little activity, it has survived.
(Yes, I should remove it when it gets cold, but that requires pulling the lower cowl, which any sane person would avoid even in the balmiest climate!...plus, you never know when a nice day will come along. right?)
 
Question #2;
I am not in a hangar, or near power, so does anyone have a successful solar charger setup? I put a little 9w panel on mine for the winter, but it didn't keep it at even 12.6 volts...the voltage kept dropping slowly.

Perry,

I use the BatteryMinder SCC-015-AA-S2, a 15W unit, and it works great in Colorado. Available from www.batteryminders.com for $135 with their trade in offer, which is interesting since you realy don't have to trade in anything.

Jim Berry
Rv-10
 
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I wouldn't trust a Concorde class battery more than about three years. Six years and it would not be in my plane unless I never left my airport.
 
The EAA had a webinar on batteries a few months ago. I didn't expect to learn much but I was wrong. I urge you to watch the webinar - it will explain why the battery minder is the charger you want to use and why trickle chargers should be avoided with AGM batteries.
 
going shopping tomorow!

I wouldn't trust a Concorde class battery more than about three years. Six years and it would not be in my plane unless I never left my airport.

Ron, my point exactly. Is my battery toast, or is it just fine, as I've only started the plane 100 times in the 6 years? How does one know for sure? It cranks nicely, even when below freezing. Go figure.

Don & Jim, thanks for the tips; the 15w solar panel battery minder looks perfect, just need to find one around here somewhere...and why there is a notice about it's compatibility with Concorde.
 
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Perry, I do not know. My three year (approximate) value is just based upon decades of car battery replacement using best recollection on how long they live.

The Odyssey's seems to have a much better life span.

Can you expect a gradual degradation that is a warning of impending failure? Or is it best to know the typical lifespan and replace them before failure. My preference is the latter if you go beyond your home airport.

If you just do pattern work and failure to start someday is not a problem, you can use a battery to failure.
 
The charger I recommend is not by any means cheap, but it has the most bang for the buck.  My charger utilizes 110LL to power the engine which in turn turns the battery charger (aka the alternator).  I try and make sure that I put the battery on charge at least once if not twice a week.

I'm sorry, I couldn't pass this up :)
 
Is my battery toast, or is it just fine, as I've only started the plane 100 times in the 6 years? How does one know for sure? It cranks nicely, even when below freezing.

Don & Jim, thanks for the tips; the 15w solar panel battery minder looks perfect, just need to find one around here somewhere...and why there is a notice about it's compatibility with Concorde.

The best way to determine the useful life of a battery is to do a capacity check once a year. Harbor Freight has a nice capacity checker usually for about $60US. The fact that it will still crank your engine means little. What you really want to know is how long your battery will keep your essential panel alive if you loose your alternator.

The note re compatibility just means the BatteryMinder puts out a charge profile that is best for a Concorde battery.

Jim Berry
RV-10
 
..or....? is it?

The best way to determine the useful life of a battery is to do a capacity check once a year. Harbor Freight has a nice capacity checker usually for about $60US. The fact that it will still crank your engine means little. What you really want to know is how long your battery will keep your essential panel alive if you loose your alternator.

The note re compatibility just means the BatteryMinder puts out a charge profile that is best for a Concorde battery.

Jim Berry
RV-10

I agree, need to know the CCA or duration Ah,
and keep the thing charged up one way or another.
...........except;
Concorde shows an april 2010 service letter somewhat emphatically saying you can NOT use a 'batteryminder' brand charger, as it may put out too much voltage, etc. etc. Also refers to Gill.

http://www.thebatteryminder.com/manuals/link_service_alert_batterytender.pdf

...then they go on to sell almost the exact same thing on their site!

could be some CYA lawyer talk.

no wonder I'm confused.
 
still more info for Concorde users.......

for 2012 - the BatteryMinder site says:

CONCORDE has changed its recommended charge rate and effective temperature compensation range requirements for both their 12-V and 24-V sealed valve regulated AGM Aviation batteries (all sizes). Because the voltage requirements are now higher than those of Gill, we have developed the S-5s to be used exclusively on Concorde Sealed General Aviation AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) batteries. Concorde has done extensive testing and has determined that the life and performance of their batteries will be improved by BatteryMINDers using their new specifications for charging and maintenance.

so the model to use for the RG25 for instance, is the
BatteryMINDer Model 12248-AA-S5: 12 Volt, 8 Amp (12V 8A) Aviation Charger/Maintainer/Desulfator

not sure if there is a solar version of it yet.....don't really see how???
 
Perry,

That is useful information. IIRC Concorde used to endorse use of the SCC-015-AA-S2, so I was surprised when you posted that they no longer do. I must admit that I did not reread the current Concorde info before my post#18.

FWIW my 3 year old Concorde continues to perform well, having been maintained on the BatteryMinder 15W solar charger for the past 2 years. The last capacity check May 2012 was unchanged from the previous year. It is really nice to have the battery topped off any time I go out to the plane.

While the S5 charger is probably the way to go if you have electric service, my understanding is that you don't. If your only choice is solar, I don't think you would be disappointed with the SCC-015-AA-S2.

Jim Berry
RV-10
 
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