Dynon for IFR

I've been asked how close my panel is to being a legal IFR panel. Tell me what you think. I'm particularly interested in Dan C.'s opinion since I believe I read somewhere he uses the Dynon for IFR.

Dynon D10A with external magnetometer
Backup Vans Airspeed, Altimeter, VSI, plus slip/skid ball & compass
ICOM A200 Comm Non-TSO'd
King KT-71 transponder using Dynon converter for altitude encoding

Other equipment:
EIS 4000 with fuel flow
Trutrak Digitrak A/P
Garmin 396

Looks to me like all that's lacking is a Nav/VOR/GS to be legal IFR. That, and getting the Piot/Static certified. Am I missing something?



For reference: 14 CFR Part 91, section 91.205

(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight,
instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.
(2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment appropriate to the ground
facilities to be used.
(3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator, except on the following aircraft:
(i) Airplanes with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of 360 degrees
of pitch and roll and installed in accordance with the instrument requirements prescribed in
?121.305(j) of this chapter; and
(ii) Rotorcraft with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of ?80 degrees
of pitch and ?120 degrees of roll and installed in accordance with ?29.1303(g) of this chapter.
(4) Slip-skid indicator.
(5) Sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure.
(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital
presentation.
(7) Generator or alternator of adequate capacity.
(8) Gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator (artificial horizon).
(9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).

See the EAA's take at this link.

I think you need a turn coordinator or turn&bank indicator (turn coordinator's WAY better). The FAA has recently said that a backup AI can replace the turn coordinator. Sporty's has a nice electric AI for not too much money. It'd be nuts to fly in IMC without a backup of some sort anyhow. Maybe the dynon meets this requirement, technically.

You don't "need" a glidescope. You can simply fly a localizer or VOR approach if you wish. You will need a CDI at a minimum, though. There's no compelling reason to NOT have a GS, though.

Without an IFR GPS or DME you will lack a lot of capability. Also, only having 1 VOR at a time makes some things tough without DME or GPS. An SL30 combined with one of Garmin's GPS/Comm units would be SWEET. A bit costly but probably not too bad.

Incidentally, I'll mention this because I've seen it go back and forth a few times. The requirement to have the ability to navigate via ground radio facilities doesn't only apply to experimentals as far as I know. My understanding is you must have ground radio navigation available even if you have a certified RNAV unit in a certified airplane, including the fancy G1000 and Avidyne panels. Maybe I'm wrong here and someone in the know can clarify this once and for all.

Looks like your panel is a really good starting place for a nice IFR panel. In terms of the instruments, it does seem to meet all requirements of 91.205, so you would then be "legal"

As a CFII, the only recommendation I would offer is, if you are going to fly IFR on any kind of regular basis, install both a second COM/VOR/GS, and then seriously consider installing some kind of IFR approved GPS in addition to the 396. You can get older KLN-89B, Apollo GX-60's, etc for fairly cheap. It will make your IFR flying MUCH easier.

Let us know what you're plans are Good luck

Nav equipment appropriate to ground facilities means a VOR receiver is sufficient but will limit you to VOR approaches. LOC and GS are not required unless you plan to shoot ILS approaches. Marker beacons have been mostly eliminated in the US (still in operation at KPTK). All of the equipment necessary for these approaches needs to be certified.
Your 396 does not qualify as usable for IFR (non certified), but you can equip for GPS only approaches and be legal with a certified system.
In any event, I would recommend at the very least a single certified VOR/LOC/GS system backed up by your 396 and a handheld Nav/Com. The latter can be wired to plug into your external antenna if needed for better range and reception. With some practice, you should be able to fly VOR approaches with only your handheld.
Finally, while the dynon satisfys the requirement for horizon and heading information (as well as timer), you can make the system "safer" by having the back-up battery option. Also, unless you limit your IFR flying to lower altitudes/southern states/summer months, I would also recommend a heated pitot- 10,000 to 12,000 foot operations will get you to freezing level most of the year in northern states.

OneTwoSierra,

I'm not going to say it is or it isn't X or Y. Part 91 spells it out pretty clearly. What the regs don't say clearly is if instrument FOO needs to be mechanical or electrical. Is a solid state gyro a gyroscopic instrument? Don't answer that...we'll just get into an argument. My point is that the regs are ambiguous in that one regard, and it's left to interpretation.

I do fly IFR with my EFIS-D10. That said, it ain't much. I don't spend hours in the clouds or shoot many approaches to minimums. I'm usually just popping up and down through layers.

Just as an FYI: the FAA has recently given guidance that any device, mechanical or not, that performs the same function as a mechanical "gyroscopic" instrument definately counts and is legal. If I can find the advisory circular I'll post it here.

What I'm not sure about is this business of a "third" attitude instrument that would allow the turn coordinator (or backup AI) to not be required. I've never quite understood what they meant by that. Maybe someone more knowledgable here can explain what that means?

edit: my mistake...it's not in an AC I can find. There's an article kicking around that indicates an FAA rep said the above is OK.

Legalities aside i would ad a Pictorial pilot

An autopilot makes any X country flying a much more relaxed experience and they will level your wings and reduce your workload.

I flew backseat to my new CFI and his current IFR student...The guy somewhat frazelled, behind the airplane etc etc...The CFI took the controls and told him to take a breather...after 2 minutes of straight and level handed him back the airplane and he did just fine...Thats when I knew I needed an A/P, just to decompress when the CFI aint there anymore...the Pictorial pilot gives you the turn coordinator function and so is an effective back up to your Dynon EFIS....

just a thought.

Frank

Yep ready for bare min IFR

There is legal and than their is safe. Yes you have the bare min flight instruments for IFR. The Dynon has rate of turn and all the IFR required flt insts. However you would be in deep dodo if the Dynon went belly-up. All you would have is the TruTrk. That would be a dire situation. Just keep in mind the Dynon is an experimental instrument and not certified nor do they claim it is. Use at your own risk.

Per "jcoloccia" a nice addition would be an electical mechanical Sporty ADI. That is nice $2000 option, about the same price as a second Dynon EFIS, also an option. Most electric mechanical ADI's cost $3,000-$5,000, so the sporty's ADI at $2,000 sounds nice? The only down side is its mechanical. If you are into aerobatics and landing on rough fields it'll take a beating. There is a TBO on mechanical gyros. What's the cost to overhaul? Can it be economically overhauled? I don't know. Just something to think about. Of course it needs electricity. The Dynon does have the advantage of an internal battery option. A backup TC or T&B may be a cheaper substitute to a second backup ADI, but a TC or T&B is not cheap either; they cost $750 to $900! Of course partial panel (needle ball airspeed) practice would be key if you really plan on that being your backup.

You have an autopilot and mechanical pitot/static airspeed/altitude instruments. I believe that is what Dan C. has. That's a nice start to backing up the Dynon. Some may go with just that. You have to decide.

Yep all you need is IFR NAV, either ground based or approved terrestrial (ie GPS). I like IFR lite, with 3.125" dia Narco VOR/LOC/GS/MB or the Val INS equivalent. Its small, compact and gives you all the IFR nav you need. Of course DME and and two VOR intersections might be a challenge or out of your capability. VOR/VOR intersections can be done with single VOR, but it takes lots of dial turning, far from ideal. With IFR GPS you need expensive electronic data base updates. With ground based setup you just need current paper charts and plates.

The VFR Garmin GPS is nice (a must), but you may want fresh internal batteries for a what if scenario. It may not be legal to fly with a Garmin 396 as sole source NAV, but in an emergency that all that goes out the window, you do what you have to do.

A hand held Com, you can plug into the external antenna and connect to your headset would also make an acceptable Com back up. The coax of my panel COM is accessible. I can manually disconnect it from the antenna and attach the antenna to the hand held.

There's no legal backup requirements for a GA plane. You could rationalize the that TruTrk would substitute. That would be your option. The TruTrk is also an experimental instrument and the manufacture does not endorse use as an IFR device, but than it is not required to be endorsed, its experimental.

The last question is source of electricity if all your inst's, flight, nav and backups, are electical. The most common scenerio is the alternator dies and the main battery gets you on the ground, say with in 30 minutes. There was some beauty in having vacuum instruments, independant of any electricity.

With an all electrical panel, consider a second independant isolated battery to drive critical electical items. You can shot gun internal back up batteries in the Dynon, Garmin and Handheld transceiver Com. That's a pain and adds weight and cost, however what's your safety worth? Could save the day?

Good Luck, but I agree right now, a VOR is all you need to file IFR and fly airways, and shoot VOR approaches. Add a MB (marker beacon receiver) you can do LOC approaches. Add GS, fly DA 200 feet & Vis 0.5 sm / RVR 1800 ft!

George,

Check your Private Messages.

Dynon HSI Replacement for CDI?

Question along the same line is would the new Dynon software with HSI allow you to not have a external mechanical CDI wired to GPS/VOR/GS. Plan on using Garmin 300 XL GPS and SL-30 nav com.

Thanks
Alan

Good thought

Quote: "Question along the same line is would the new Dynon software with HSI allow you to not have a external mechanical CDI wired to GPS/VOR/GS. Plan on using Garmin 300 XL GPS and SL-30 nav com."

If you had a GPS and a SL-30
and
1ea D-100
and
1ea D-180

You would have a totally redundant EFIS one HSI and one EHSI.

Since the EHSI also points to the standby VOR, could you use this to determine VOR intersections with only one SL-30 without flipping back and forth?

Would this setup not offer a great bit of advantages?

Monitoring the standby VOR via the Dynon 180

Brantel said:

Quote: "Question along the same line is would the new Dynon software with HSI allow you to not have a external mechanical CDI wired to GPS/VOR/GS. Plan on using Garmin 300 XL GPS and SL-30 nav com."

If you had a GPS and a SL-30 and 1ea D-100 and 1ea D-180 You would have a totally redundant EFIS one HSI and one EHSI.

Since the EHSI also points to the standby VOR, could you use this to determine VOR intersections with only one SL-30 without flipping back and forth?

Would this setup not offer a great bit of advantages?

Click to expand...

This is almost exactly what I'm planning on ordering for my 9. However, Dynon nixed the idea of monitoring the standby VOR via the 180.

Please explain

MrNomad said:

This is almost exactly what I'm planning on ordering for my 9. However, Dynon nixed the idea of monitoring the standby VOR via the 180.

Click to expand...

What do you mean by Dynon nixed the idea of monitoring the standby on the 180? Is this specific to the 180 or all of the EFIS models? What is the reason they say it won't work?

Dynonsupport jump in here if you can to help us out with this... Is what I am proposing possible or ????

Dynon use with SL30

Brantel said:

What do you mean by Dynon nixed the idea of monitoring the standby on the 180? Is this specific to the 180 or all of the EFIS models? What is the reason they say it won't work?

Dynonsupport jump in here if you can to help us out with this... Is what I am proposing possible or ????

Click to expand...

When I read that the Dynon will work with the SL30, I downloaded the SL30 manual and read that it had a standby VOR. Knowing I was going to purchase a Dynon 100 & 180 for redundancy, I concluded that I could place the primary VOR on the 100 and the standby (which is limited to "from") on the 180. However, I spoke to tech support at Dynon and was told I'd have to buy two radios to view two vor's.

I plan to ask a Dynon expert this morning this question (again) and will report back if my understanding was incorrect. I hope I misunderstood cause it would be great to monitor two vor's in this manner.

Feel free to call me with your experiences or work-arounds cause this would solve a lot of problems & $$.

Barry
520-797-0265

One the same EFIS

1 IFR GPS hooked up to D100
1 SL-30 hooked up to the D180

What I am proposing is that because the EHSI shows the OBS for the active VOR station and the EHSI on the same unit also shows the radial FROM the standby VOR on the same display, that you could use the SL-30 and one of the EFIS panels as a makeshift but effective dual VOR system.

The other EFIS hooked up to the GPS would give you HSI info off the GPS.

So in this setup you would have total EFIS redundancy, engine monitoring, 1 HSI, 1 EHSI with the ability to use the SL-30 to create a makeshift but effective dual VOR system with LOC/GS info on the EHSI also.

Will this work?

MrNomad said:

When I read that the Dynon will work with the SL30, I downloaded the SL30 manual and read that it had a standby VOR. Knowing I was going to purchase a Dynon 100 & 180 for redundancy, I concluded that I could place the primary VOR on the 100 and the standby (which is limited to "from") on the 180. However, I spoke to tech support at Dynon and was told I'd have to buy two radios to view two vor's.

Click to expand...

When tuned to a VOR on the active and an VOR on the standby, the SL-30 puts out four bits of data:

CDI needle position for the active
OBS setting for the active
Bearing to Active frequency (BTA)
Bearing to Standby frequency (BTS)

All of the Dynon EFIS products (including the D180) display all of this information on one HSI screen. The CDI and OBS are the main display, but we also display bearing pointers (RMI) for the BTA and BTS.

We display everything we can. The SL-30 only outputs the direct bearing to the standby frequency, so that's all we can show, but we do show it.

We do not support showing the active on one EFIS and the standby on another EFIS. We either show you everything from the SL-30 or nothing. We do hide the standby bearing pointer if it's not tuned. All we could show you on the second EFIS would be the bearing pointer to the standby VOR so that wouldn't make up much of an HSI.

An image of what our screen looks like tuned to an SL-30 with the BTA and BTS active is on page 4-6 of our D180 user guide:
http://dynonavionics.com/downloads/User_Manuals/100601_-_Rev_B_-_FlightDEK-D180_Pilot%27s_User_Guide_-_text_-_web.pdf

Brian, why not put a "source" switch by each Dynon unit so you can show either GPS or VOR on either screen.. so when you want to use the other one you don't have to stare across to the unit showing that source. Though, not sure how you'd have them laid out on the panel, so this may not be a big deal.

The D180 accepts an input from a GPS and an SL-30 at the same time. There is a button on the D180 that lets you switch between them as the HSI source.

If you hook the DSAB wires up to the EFIS, the D180 will share all of that data over to the D100. You can show whatever you want on the D100 as well. So you could show the SL-30 on the D180 and the GPS on the D100 if you wanted, with no external switch required.

Dynon HSI instead of CDI

RV-9AL said:

Question along the same line is would the new Dynon software with HSI allow you to not have a external mechanical CDI wired to GPS/VOR/GS. Plan on using Garmin 300 XL GPS and SL-30 nav com.

Thanks
Alan

Click to expand...

Good question, Alan. One that I have pondered myself. I doubt if we'll get a definitive response. It's similar to the Dynon attitude vs vacuum-driven/electrical artificial horizon for IFR comparison.

My understanding is that Dynon is not interested in going through the FAA certification process to get their unit blessed for IFR. I certainly understand that! As far as using them in Experimentals for IFR, it is sort of a grey area and seems to be up to the individual. The HSI functionality is brand new so it will be awhile before we starting hearing about how well it works and its reliability. The Dynon EFIS has been out for awhile and I've heard nothing but good things about it. Pilots like Dan C. have used it in IFR. So, it has been proving itself -- but each pilot will have to decide for himself if they will fly IFR with it and with how much redundancy. I think the same thing will happen with the HSI. It will gradually prove itself one way or the other, and then each builder/pilot will make their own decision.

I'm planning on buying the FD-180 and SL-30 but not the standalone CDI. I'm not instrument-rated but it's something I eventually want to get. I can evaluate the Dynon HSI in the meantime and if it doesn't pass muster, I'll put in a CDI.

... Bill

COOL

Radomir said:

Brian, why not put a "source" switch by each Dynon unit so you can show either GPS or VOR on either screen.. so when you want to use the other one you don't have to stare across to the unit showing that source. Though, not sure how you'd have them laid out on the panel, so this may not be a big deal.

Click to expand...

From the post by Dynonsupport, it looks like you could hook up both the GSP and the SL-30 to the D180 and connect the D100 to the D180 by the DSAB connection. Then you could have the HSI for the GPS or the EHSI for the SL-30 on either screen with the touch of the button. That is cool.

So since the EHSI will show the radial FROM the vor on standby, you do have an ability to get crossfixes with 1 SL-30. That is really cool.

nitpick

>King KT-71 transponder using Dynon converter for altitude encoding

Since I know nothing of the Dynon, I am assuming that you mean it is providing the altitude to your transponder.

If someone really wanted to nitpick your installation you might have to worry about
91.215.

I'm certain the altitude encoder would fall under the definition of "transponder equipment", and would be required to be TSO'd, or be proven to meet the (listed 91.215) TSO specifications.

This is my opinion and not necessarily the opinion of Dynon Avionics:

FAR 91.215 is for the actual transponder. 91.217 is for the encoding equipment that talks to the transponder.

FAR 91.217 says:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Data correspondence between automatically reported pressure altitude data and the pilot's altitude reference.

No person may operate any automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment associated with a radar beacon transponder--

(a) When deactivation of that equipment is directed by ATC;

(b) Unless, as installed, that equipment was tested and calibrated to transmit altitude data corresponding within 125 feet (on a 95 percent probability basis) of the indicated or calibrated datum of the altimeter normally used to maintain flight altitude, with that altimeter referenced to
29.92 inches of mercury for altitudes from sea level to the maximum operating altitude of the aircraft; or

(c) Unless the altimeters and digitizers in that equipment meet the standards of TSO-C10b and TSO-C88, respectively.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The Dynon EFIS has a 100% probability that the transponder output will exactly match the displayed altimeter on the EFIS, since they are the same device. Because of this, only (b) needs to be met and not (c).

got me there...

but here's a question:

Does the Dynon report altitude to the transponder based on a continuous reference to 29.92 even while the Dynons altimeter is set to a different altimeter setting?

It is my understanding that the common separate encoders are "locked" at the 29.92 reference.

Yes, the Dynon encoder always operates as if it was at 29.92, just like 91.217 requires.