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Electronic AI

jlfernan

Well Known Member
I'm starting to plan my panel and while I don't want to go full electronic(meaning an EFIS of MFD) I want reliable. TruTrak has an electronic AI that looks interesting and goes for about a grand. I figure for the cost of a non-TSO AI and a vacuum pump I can get the truTrak and not have to worry about a pump failure or having to replace it at 500 hours. The problem is I don't really understand TruTrak's terminology. Below is the description as written is a certain catalog:

TruTrak Solid State ADI (Attitude Direction Indicator).
**Bank Angle - Instantaneous Gryo Data
**Pitch - Gyro Enhanced Vertical Speed
**Direction - Electronic DG Showing Track
(Internal Lighting Standard)

I don't get "Pitch - Gyro Enhanced Vertical Speed". What's the difference between this and a vacuum powered AI? Also, is anyone out there flying with one of these yet or seen one in action that can compare it to traditional AI?
 
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I don't understand how this system works either but I flew in Tru-Trak's factory 9A with Jim Younkin. He had me fly under a hood for five minutes with nothing but the AI. He said to try to keep the horizon from moving up or down as best I could. After five minutes I took the hood off and I was within 50 feet of the same altitude as when I started. After that we flew in all kinds of weird attitudes and the instrument reflected exactly what I saw out the window at all times. I should confess I am a vendor for Tru-Trak and am very biased about their products but there will be one in my RV-9A. I will trust it every bit as much as any other piece of equipment in the plane.
 
This is how I think it works

From reading their patent online, I think it works like this:

- It measured vertical speed using the normal barometric means.
- It displays that as pitch
- It adds to that an integrated pitch rate signal to help catch the quick pitch motion that a) results in little vertical speed change, b) a baro instrument can't see
- I *think* they use a technique called "complementary filtering": the baro signal is low-passed filtered (i.e. used to measure long-term motion) while the pitch rate signal is high-pass filtered (only CHANGES make their way through to the instrument) so that the bias of the gyro is not displayed.

The latter is also called "washed out" pitch rate.

Hope this helps.
 
jlfernan said:
TruTrak Solid State ADI (Attitude Direction Indicator).
**Bank Angle - Instantaneous Gryo Data
**Pitch - Gyro Enhanced Vertical Speed
**Direction - Electronic DG Showing Track
(Internal Lighting Standard)

I don't get "Pitch - Gyro Enhanced Vertical Speed". What's the difference between this and a vacuum powered AI? Also, is anyone out there flying with one of these yet or seen one in action that can compare it to traditional AI?

I'm flying a Night VFR RV-6A, and recently (~20 hours ago) fitted a Trutrak AI replacing a Trutrak T&B (not a straight forward swap BTW). The good side is now I have heading (track) information right infront of me - previously it was buried in my KLX-135A.
Bank angle seems to be pretty similar to a regular gyro instrument, although it is influenced by slip & skid. When taxiing there is a bank angle indication during turns. There is also a skid ball in the AI, so keep that in the center and there will be no problems - I don't know what happens to bank angle info with the ball off center.
Pitch is a bit different and seems to indicate greater pitch attitudes than a regular AI. This is especially noticeable in a descent when the pitch bar seems to be way down at (say) a 1000 fpm descent. I have to qualify this statement by saying that most of my instrument flying in a 172 so the RV's greater climb rate may be a factor and I have not really tried flying on the TT AI under the hood.
Overall I really like the instrument, it does take a little getting used to and it does not behave exactly like a regular AI, but for my purposes I am very happy.
Pete
 
Back-up or prime attitude instrument.

The TruTrak may be (may be?) a suitable last chance back-up. I have not flown one but from what I understand and what is written above it's a derived "Attitude" from other data.

A true GYRO (like the VAC unit you mention) is totally internal, does not use air pressure or BARO, does not use acceleration (intentionally) or GPS to show an attitude (pitch/bank). It only uses the principle of "rigidity of gyroscopic forces" to maintain its postion (attitude) which gives us the display. Gyros are not perfect either; they do have "precision errors" and are affected by acceleration, which can cause erroneous indications.

TruTrak is not using gyroscopic forces but is using software to detect, acceleration, air pressure and a GPS signal, to interpret and display bank and pitch. If you know vertical acceleration and BARO you can display IVSI or instantaneous vertical speed, from chance in pressure and acceleration. You can fly pretty level with IVSI, so it makes a good approx of pitch. If your VSI is ZERO and does not change you are level (kind of, your in level flight but not level attitude necessarily).

LEVEL flight path is not LEVEL attitude. However for little planes we really only care about level flight path, which pretty much correlates to level attitude. For example, in slow flight your attitude is nose high but you can be in level flight. At high speed in level flight, not climbing or descending, you are at a different and lower attitude than slow flight.

A Gyro will display attitude and indirectly tells you if you are climbing or descending. You need to look at airspeed, VSI or altitude to know if you are climbing or descending.


So TruTrak is using are you climbing/descending info (vert acceleration and BARO) to display approx pitch attitude. This clearly could get you into a little trouble in turbulence? It all depends on how good the they tuned the software and how good you are at flying with it.

I wounder what it would do in an unusual attitude?

Frankly the hardest thing to do IMC is keep the wings level. There is nothing that will give you wings level other than a Gyro or Gyro type device. At least with pitch we have airspeed, altimeter and VSI to determine if we are going up or down, which is a clue to our pitch attitude. Bank? You need a gyro.

Again TruTrak derives or approximates bank on acceleration and heading change (from the GPS). All good things but only related to bank, not absolute. BANK ANGLE can only be displayed by a GYRO device. Heading change and acceleration are approximate indication of bank.

Truth be told all the new EFIS Gyros are really derived or approx using acceleration in some form to determine attitude. They are more sophisticated with all 6 degrees of freedom, X, Y, Z and rotation in those three Axis measured. THe BMA and Dynon do use airspeed and may be Baro to "tune" the attitude. Airspeed is used to tune out acceleration error in the horizontal plane which can indicate a pitch up or pitch down. Even mechanical gyros suffer a little from this. Also some use a GPS signal to help in resolve bank as well. Dynon of course does not use GPS, but I think BMA does. Now REAL electronic gyros are totally independant of BARO, Pitot (airspeed) and GPS signal to work, but they cost $250,000.

The Honeywell Laser Ring Gyro (all solid state) used in a Boeing is more sophisticated than most of what we are using in experimental planes. Both are trying to do the same thing however, measure the acceleration in all three axis and three rotations, with software turning that into an attitude. The lower end units get HELP to resolve errors with the helpers, baro, airspeed and GPS heading. The high end units are so precise they don't have the same errors and thus are TRUE INTERNAL Reference units, not relying on anything else, like a mechanical gyro.

Bottom line is unless you have a spinning mass you are using some form of "inertial refrence system" or IRS you are making an educated guess at attitude. The TruTrak is a simple unit, apparently added by barometric info (pitch) and GPS (heading), assisting in deriving attitude. There are limitations to using BARO for attitude or GPS heading for bank.


It appears from the above post the TruTrak does an OK job. The fact is the trutrak is an experimental device. It may work as a last chance back-up but not as a primary instrument. Also practice and currency is key to using it.

I suspect the manufacture TruTrak has some legal words and disclaimers about using it (not using it) for IFR flight. With that said we are flying an experimental aircraft and if you trust a "derived" attitude for a back up than that is your choice.

If you have an electric T&B / TC gyro for bank (really rate of yaw) plus the "pitch instruments", airspeed, altimeter and VSI, you should be able to fly partial panel. However I think the TruTrak is a nice thing to have. I would much prefer to also have the TruTrak AI, but as a sole back-up? That is an individual choice. On the other hand if you rely on "Needle, Ball and Airspeed" only you need to practice that as well.

I don't think anyone would put the TruTrak front and center as the prime attitude instrument, at least I would not. If you want TRUE attitude you want a GYRO. The Sportys back up gyro is a contender. However remember its all electric and if you get a lightning strike you may blow everything out, glass or not. I agree Vac is undesirable, especially for an experimental. However it is truly independent because it uses a differnt kind of power, but vacuum sucks for a reason. :rolleyes:
 
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gmcjetpilot said:
The TruTrak may be (may be?) a suitable last chance back-up. I have not flown one but from what I understand and what is written above it's a derived "Attitude" from other data............ If you want TRUE attitude you want a GYRO. The Sportys back up gyro is a contender. However remember its all electric and if you get a lightning strike you may blow everything out, glass or not. I agree Vac is undesirable, especially for an experimental. However it is truly independent because it uses a differnt kind of power, but vacuum sucks for a reason. :rolleyes:

Well written, George. It's hard not to agree with you.

I am out of the IFR loop after years of nothing but, the reason being, general aviation equipment is short on reliability (and it is a lot of work to stay current).

If the airlines flew around on vacuum pumps and/or $2000 electronic AI's, the NTSB would be understaffed, the country side would be littered with wrecks and the public would quit flying.

Vacuum pump failure IFR at night almost always ends not good. I know of 2 such events locally within the past 5 years, one killed a running politician, and other wrecked a very nice Bonanza and the people on board. Such accidents have been reported over and over by the NTSB, but the industry does not change the basic GA equipment requirments because of economics. In this senario, money rules as the body count is minimal, sometimes spectacular, but nevertheless minimal. Under Part 121, the life loss rate would be totally unacceptable, that's why all such certified stuff is very expensive, redundant, and reliable. Plus, there's at least 2 sets of eye balls keeping an eye on things.

Electronic AI's for experimental use (and I fly with a Dynon) are cute but hardly suitable for IFR. For that matter, Dynon clearly says, not for IFR use. And for good reaon. They do not want to be sued like the vacuum pump companies, which I think are about out of business.

OK, so why would anyone have a low priced EAI? Answer, it is a great VFR crutch, as is an independent auto pilot and altitude hold. There are lots of days when it is 1000-3, hazy, and very nice above it all at 10,500 or so. The Dynon, auto pilot, and GPS make such travel a piece of cake. Sure, it can be done without, but much easier with.

The last time I flew SEL IFR was in an old Cherokee with a vacuum drum DG and AI. It was not a hard day, than goodness, as the whisky compass failed (who ever heard of a whisky compass failing?) and there was no reference to set the drum DG which precessed a lot. I managed to find VFR conditions and promptly cancelled IFR. That was my last SEL IFR flight as it was a favor to ferry the airplane and not at all necessary to go.

Life's too short to self induce such pucker time. :)

dd


 
How about the electric AI made by Falcon, do those work the same as Trutrak's or do they use a standard gyro, except electrically powered?
 
gmcjetpilot said:
TruTrak derives or approximates bank on acceleration and heading change (from the GPS). All good things but only related to bank, not absolute. BANK ANGLE can only be displayed by a GYRO device. Heading change and acceleration are approximate indication of bank.

My understanding is that the Trutrak ADI uses the GPS signal only for the digital heading display. The bank indication is actually coming from yaw data, thus the bank indication when turning during taxi. Essentially this means that it functions just like a turn indicator, but displays the info as bank.
 
jlfernan said:
How about the electric AI made by Falcon, do those work the same as Trutrak's or do they use a standard gyro, except electrically powered?

That is a true gyro, just electric powered. However, I've read a lot of posts saying that it is not a particularly robust instrument.
 
Possible False Bank Indication

szicree said:
My understanding is that the Trutrak ADI uses the GPS signal only for the digital heading display. The bank indication is actually coming from yaw data, thus the bank indication when turning during taxi. Essentially this means that it functions just like a turn indicator, but displays the info as bank.
If this is so, then the bank angle indicated will only be correct for a balanced turn. Any slip or skid will alter the indicated bank.

Pete.
 
IMHO the Trutrak AI is a suitable instrument to use for attitude information. It does not work exactly the same as a spinning gyro based instrument, but it does provide sufficient information. It does require the aircraft to be in balance (and provides a slip ball). It does not use GPS for anything other than providing a display of track. It also has a low airspeed warning (flashing AS in track window) and will shortly have an AoA display. For the money I think it is good value.

Vacuum systems with a pump are unreliable, but can survive lightning strikes. Why not back up this AI with a vacuum powered T&B driven by a small venturi? The venturi would hadly be noticeable beside the exhaust.

If you cannot control the aircraft after losing the gyro instruments you have no business flying in IMC - take more training. Its that simple. I spent an hour yesterday shooting 3 approaches (1 x ILS & 2x VOR DME) without an AH or DI (in a 172), aircraft control was never in doubt, I'm not a great pilot by any means, just have a good instrument instructor.

Pete
 
gmcjetpilot said:
TruTrak is not using gyroscopic forces but is using software to detect, acceleration, air pressure and a GPS signal, to interpret and display bank and pitch.

George, that is not correct.

gmcjetpilot said:
So TruTrak is using are you climbing/descending info (vert acceleration and BARO) to display approx pitch attitude.

Again incorrect, George. Trutrak use a pitch & roll gyro and mix in the other information using software.

gmcjetpilot said:
Again TruTrak derives or approximates bank on acceleration and heading change (from the GPS).

George, you really need to get your facts straight here. This statement is simply not correct. Trutrak measures bank angle using a electronic gyro.

gmcjetpilot said:
Bottom line is unless you have a spinning mass you are using some form of "inertial refrence system" or IRS you are making an educated guess at attitude. The TruTrak is a simple unit, apparently added by barometric info (pitch) and GPS (heading), assisting in deriving attitude. There are limitations to using BARO for attitude or GPS heading for bank.

Again, not backed up by any DATA. This is a fine opinion but not, in fact, true. As you rightly point out earlier Inertial platforms also only guess at attitude and do drift (have a look at military units), so are not a panacea. Again Trutrak are smart enough not to use GPS heading to try to derive bank angle.

Pete

PS My experience with Falcon instruments is that they are not very strudy. If you like to turn your airplane upside down don't count on the Falcon gyro lasting very long.
 
Hey Clarity!

Hey penguin,
You are giving George a bit of a rev up here for being vague. (Guilty of that myself, revving up George that is.)
But, you are the pot calling the kettle black.
I don't understand a lot of this and so would ask, if this subject is going to be discussed for the benifit of others, and that includes me, can we have a little non-ambiguous terminology.
From what does TruTrak autopilots derive their raw data?
You say by Electronic Gyro. Do you mean Solid State Gyro (ie Not Electric) which I assume is basically 3 Accelerometers?
And is this different to an AHRS (Attitude Heading Reference System) as in the GRT EFIS?
I know George mentioned Inertial Reference Systems and that you say they 'Guessed' at attitude. Well, I reckon they calculated it from a known starting attitude and the accelerations that they had sensed since.
But, my GRT doesn't need to any intial data and calculates the attitude 45 sec after booting. That is 10 degrees nose up. (It's a taildragger)
So, how does it do this and how is the TruTrak different?
Pete.
 
penguin said:
If you cannot control the aircraft after losing the gyro instruments you have no business flying in IMC - take more training. Its that simple. I spent an hour yesterday shooting 3 approaches (1 x ILS & 2x VOR DME) without an AH or DI (in a 172), aircraft control was never in doubt, I'm not a great pilot by any means, just have a good instrument instructor.

Pete

Basically a true statement, Pete, and a good confidence builder in a very controlled, smooth environment. But do not hang your hat on it.

There are times when it is so rough, keeping an airplane level with everything working is a full time job for 2 people. That's the fallacy of the GA instrument concept. The needle and ball are never centered, the airspeed is jumping around plus or minus 10 knots, and V/V is about 3 cycles behind what's going on. Next time you are in moderate turbulence, take a look at these instruments and ask yourself if they are telling you anything worth knowing.

That's why a vacuum failure is very serious and usually ends not good. It is not a matter of training or competence but lack of adequate equipment to save the moment.

dd
 
I am skeptical, if only because I have been in flight situations where I believe the TruTrak unit would show incorrect pitch information if it is deriving attitude from other-than-gyro data sources.

Imagine being in IMC, and encountering strong up/down drafts. You have the throttle firewalled, pitched for climb, but are still losing >1500 FPM. How about the reverse - throttle at minimum, prop at max RPM, nose down and still gaining > 2000FPM. What would the TruTrak show in this condition? If it doesn't show accurate information, it's not suitable for IFR.

Anyone know how the unit might handle these conditions?
 
penguin said:
Trutrak measures bank angle using a electronic gyro.

Sorry, but this is simply not true. It senses rotation around the vertical axis and displays it as bank. It does not measure bank angle.

Regarding pitch, it senses rotation around the lateral axis and displays it as pitch. It does not detect true pitch, but rather pitching. When the pitching stops, its display goes back to nose on the horizon unless its vsi senses a climb, in which case it "pins" the indicator in the nose-up position.

Obviously, this last bit is the tricky part and I'm sure some sort of software/filter tries to sort it out.

The above info comes from my conversations with Trutrak and from fidddling around with the device on the ground.
 
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ChiefPilot said:
I am skeptical, if only because I have been in flight situations where I believe the TruTrak unit would show incorrect pitch information if it is deriving attitude from other-than-gyro data sources.

...

The TruTrak does not show pitch. This is from first hand experience flying with it.

I think it is an easy instrument to fly with, in many ways it is easier than an attitude indicator. It is possible to think of some very unusual circumstances where it might show confusing information, but in general I think it would tend to keep a person out of trouble more often than a conventional attitude indicator.

I think a source of confusion is that the manufacturer does not really explain what it does or how it does it so we have to do a lot of guessing.
 
The TruTrak does not show pitch. This is from first hand experience flying with it.
My mistake - I thought TruTrak was the name of the company. Their ADI product, which claims to show pitch information derived from "gyro enhanced vertical speed", is what I was referring to.

I think a source of confusion is that the manufacturer does not really explain what it does or how it does it so we have to do a lot of guessing.
I agree completely!
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ChiefPilot said:
My mistake - I thought TruTrak was the name of the company. Their ADI product, which claims to show pitch information derived from "gyro enhanced vertical speed", is what I was referring to.
...

The product I was referring to is the TruTrak ADI. I'm sorry if abbreviating that was confusing.

The claim to show "pitch information" is a bit vague to me.

I will give a simple example of how it acts differently than an attitude indicator. I am cruising at 145 knots indicated airspeed. If I zeroed the AI for this speed it is showing the little airplane on the horizon, the ADI is showing the same thing. If I now slow down to 90 knots IAS while maintaining level flight, to prepare to enter a hold, the AI is now giving a nose above the horizon indication as my angle of attack is now higher. The ADI will continue to show the airplane right on the horizon.

I think it is fairly easy for someone used to an AI to adjust to the ADI but if you were trained on an ADI a true attitude indicator would be more challenging, I believe. Clearly the ADI is not showing attitude. The nose is above the horizon, or more properly above the reference setting (on an AI or by looking outside) but the ADI is showing on the horizon.

All you have to do with the ADI is keep the little airplane on the horizon and you will maintain altitude, with an AI it is more complex, but it is just like flying the airplane by outside references.
 
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