Not RV but there are a few who can count their blessings today

I am a person in Carson City Nevada and on August 28 I responded to the folllowing accident.

A Hawker 800XP landed gear up at our airport. On arriving at the scene I found that the pilot, co-pilot and the three passengers were all OK. I observed several odd things about the crashed jet. The nose was missing and the right wing leading edge inboard was demolished. There was sporatic damage on the fuse, right nacelle and horizontal. All very odd damage for a gear up landing.

There was literally, a slice in the front left side of the fuse that went from the radar housing bulkhead up and rearward to just under the pilots window. Hanging out of this slice was a spar of some sort that did not belong to this jet.

It was quickly determined to be a mid-air collision with pieces that appeared to belong to a glider. On talking with the female pilot this was confirmed. her face looked as though she had been attacked by a slasher. Teh co-pilot confirmed the collision and was completely unharmed as were the three passengers.

I looked into the cockpit and I was completely amazed. The co-pilot side had only a small amount of debris strewn about while the pilot side looked as though it had been dynamited. The panel had literally exploded into the pilots face. The lower panel collapsed onto the yoke.

We implemented search and rescue with Aero Squadron and even our local med-evac joined in. As the jet was IFR we had a location from flight following as to where they were when the mayday was given. Within two hours glider wreckage was located in the mountains east of Minden. A very popular soaring destination. MEV. Our next notification was that a parachute canopy was located on the ground and that the harness was open as though the pilot landed safely and removed the harness. Before we knew it we had a call that one of the local Tribal Officers had picked up the glider pilot as he was walking out of the mountains. Minor cuts and bruises.

This event was so far, full of miracles. I just could not believe that everyone involved was alive and well needing nothing more than stitches.

Now it was time to concentrate on getting the jet on its wheels or on a trailer and off of the runway. This proved to be a non-event as we had two of what I now assume to be the best crane operators in the west. They properly slinged, lifted and moved this jet up, out of the dirt and onto the runway as though they were playing with toys. The wheels dropped and that majestic, beat up machine stood there in all of her glory as though it knew that it held it together just long enough to get the folks home.

Lest anyone question the miracle status of this event I will continue with indicating factors. The total fuel that was left onboard was estimated by the crew to be about 500 gallons. Well when we lifted up the jet it drained about 40 to 50 gallons. When the right wing ruptured it obviously lost its fuel. When emptied it began to vacuum fuel out of the left tank via what was told to me to be a cross feed system.

Wait, there is more. I don't think that I mentioned who braught the jet home. Through all of her injuries and the damage in front of her the first officer braought that jet and its cargo home. The co-pilot did his job calling out emergency procedure and the other ten thousand things but the pilot waded through her blood and injuries, the aircraft damage and the fact that she may have just been half of what was suspected to be a collision that killed another person and braught that jet in like a miracle worker. She even kept it on the runway until the very end when it just barely slipped off of side and into the dirt.

I am still whirling from the circumstances of this incident and the amazing fact that everyone survived.

Lets recap.
Jet hits glider at over 300 Knots
Injured pilot lands jet
Glider pilot ejects and is recovered relatively unharmed
All persons live

In case I have not described this incident well enough I will let a few photos speak the rest.

We can all identify the lessons that we can learn from this incident and if I ever have the luck to travel in a Corporate Jet I hope that A is my pilot.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/4683/11dy6.jpg
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5328/5oy9.jpg
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/2266/dscf0034vm0.jpg
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/2240/14nx6.jpg

Miracles

Bill, thanks a lot.............absolutely incredible.

I agree........miracles still happen.
Regards,

Incredible!

Bill - thanks for sharing this amazing story! As the Flight Safety Offcier for my organization, I'm going to add this to our web site as an example of two points...

1) As you said, sometiems miracle DO happen!

2) When the worst happens, keep flying the biggest piece you can until all the pieces stop moving....in other words, never give up!

Wow!

NetJets?

That looks like a NetJets paint job. Was the tail number NxxxQS by any chance? We have a NetJets pilot as a member of this board. Any info, Brent?

Update:

None Seriously Hurt in Hawker-Sailplane Midair
Remarkably, the two pilots and three passengers on a NetJets Hawker 800XP (N879QS) and the pilot of a Schleicher sailplane escaped serious injury when the two aircraft collided at about 16,000 feet yesterday afternoon near Carson City, Nev. The pilot of the glider bailed out and landed safely, while the jet made a gear-up landing at Carson City Airport. A photo of the Hawker on the runway after the landing shows damage to the nose, including a missing nose cone and imbeded parts of the glider. According to NetJets, the captain of the jet was treated for minor injuries. The company also said the collision caused damage to the underside of the jet, as well as to the nose. The accident happened while the Hawker was descending to land at Reno-Tahoe Airport, Nev! ., about an hour after taking off from Palomar Airport in Carlsbad, Calif. Weather in the area at the time of the accident was reported as 10 miles visibility and a few clouds at 10,000 feet. The NTSB is investigating.

Bill,

Thanks for submitting the report.
A friend who works for the company that owns the Hawker sent me 2 pictures of the airplane after it landed. It is indeed an incredible story.
(I'd post the images but have not yet jumped through the technical hoops to do it.)

David Domeier
Troy, MO
RV-7A
N707DD

Dgamble said:

That looks like a NetJets paint job. Was the tail number NxxxQS by any chance? We have a NetJets pilot as a member of this board. Any info, Brent?

Click to expand...

The panel picture looks like it was "N879QS" if I read it right....

Amazing. I'm glad all was ok. I hope we would all react correctly and get out plane in during something like this.

link

Here is a link to the local news article.

http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060829/NEWS15/608290365

Mike

********************************************************************************
** Report created 8/30/2006 Record 7 **
********************************************************************************

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 879QS Make/Model: H25B Description: HAWKER 800 XP
Date: 08/28/2006 Time: 2211

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Minor Mid Air: Y Missing:
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: CARSON CITY State: NV Country: US

DESCRIPTION
MID AIR COLLISION BETWEEN SCHLEICHER N7729 AND HAWKER N879QS (OPERATING AS
EJA879) AT 16,000 FEET, 42 MI SE RENO, NV. PILOT OF GLIDER BAILED OUT,
CARSON CITY, NV

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 2 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 1 Unk:
# Pass: 3 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: 22017G22 10 SM FEW 100 34/-5 A3004

OTHER DATA
Activity: Business Phase: Descent Operation: Air Carrier


FAA FSDO: RENO, NV (WP11) Entry date: 08/29/2006

The above is copied from the following 10 Day listing.:
http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/accident_incident/preliminary_data/media/A_0829_N.txt

Sailplanes at altitude

Good work on behalf of both pilots involved...

Having flown my sailplane in that area many times (all the way up to 17,500 ft.), I've always been worried about fast traffic at altitudes.

Perhaps some of the heavier jet pilots can comment, but I've always had the impression that twin/jet crews don't look out of the window as much when they are over 10,000 ft, and many are not aware that gliders can fly this high.

I've asked several commercial jet pilots who fly into LAX if they are aware of the altitudes of gliders in the Mojave desert, and most are not - same as NV, good summer weather can have altitudes of 16,000-17,000 ft.

It's a funny feeling flying in a sailplane and looking down on 737s flying in the San Bernadino pass on the way to Ontario.

I believe the sailplane was flying out of Air Sailing, North of Reno, and that the SSA Safety folks are having urgent meetings to analyse the situation.

UPDATE: The glider was flying out of Minden (used to be called Douglas County) - the bit about the SSA folks is correct though...

Some sailplane there do fly with tranponders, but this ASW 27 seems to have been in the country less than 6 weeks... I don't know if it had a transponder, and some gliders fly in that area with a 1400 code and no Mode C. Battery capacity is a major issue.

Does anyone know if Net Jets are TCAS equipped?

Glider right-of-way is a bit like the sailboat and the QE II - it has right-of-way, but physics always wins....

It's somewhat reminiscent of this accident about 10 years ago in Truckee, a few miles SE of Reno, and another popular gliding location...

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=LAX96LA343B&rpt=fi

In this case, the rear fuselage of the glider go sliced by the prop, and the pilot returned to the field and landed (no parachute?). As he rolled out, the aft fuselage fell off! Interestingly, the FAA/NTSB report doesn't mention the FAR giving right-of-way rules...

Again, good choices made by both crews after this recent collision.

gil in Tucson

az_gila said:

Does anyone know if Net Jets are TCAS equipped?

Click to expand...

I know that some are, but I don't know if ALL are. The 800XP is reasonably new, though, so I'd be mildly surprised if it didn't. The one I saw for sure was a Citation V Ultra, one of their oldest and cheapest jets.

Dear NJA

This incident is not a private incident by any means. You did not see my official report nor did you receive any information that is not public. It has been posted by the FAA and as more is learned, more will be posted by that entity. In fact, I believe that anyone who wants a copy of the official report from the FAA can get it when it is done. I have done so myself on a prior occasion that was not work related. I appreciate your concern, however, it is one of those, know what you are talking about before you do the talking incidents. You could have received the same information from any of the reporters or other 50 to 100 citizens that were at the scene. As a matter of fact I just opened my Propwash Newsletter and you can even get names of persons involved. There are several inaccurate bits of info but for the most part it is pretty correct.

Thank you for your information but remember that most officers know what they are doing and would not jeopardize themselves so cheaply. Especially this one.

Please appreciate the post for what it is, an educational, inspirational and positive post meant to lighten the hearts of its readers.

NJAdude please read the rules for posting here. Your first post ever was in what I would consider the gray area of acceptability and the second was clearly over the line (I deleted it).

Bill, thanks for you post. I appreciated it.

Doug Reeves
Forum Owner

SSA Does Not Investigate Accidents

The SSA does not investigate accidents. This is left to NTSB and others. The local soaring operation might as well as the local soaring club.

John Volkober
Region 11 Director, SSA

Soaring Safety

JVolkober said:

The SSA does not investigate accidents. This is left to NTSB and others. The local soaring operation might as well as the local soaring club.

John Volkober
Region 11 Director, SSA

Click to expand...

John... I used the word "analyse" not investigate.....

The Nevada folks are doing the correct thing, and involving SSA Safety folks...

This is happening.... from another e-mail....

The Air Sailing Board of Trustees and the officers of Nevada Soaring
Association have invited the Soaring Safety Foundation to conduct a
confidential Site Survey to take a look at our safety culture and
procedures and to then give us off the record feedback and suggestions
as to how we can improve. To this end, Burt Compton, Soaring Safety
Foundation Trustee and manager of the Site Survey program will spend
xxx date removed xxx at the gliderport: flying, observing and talking
with members. In the evening, starting at 6 pm, we?ll host a BBQ at
the gliderport, followed by a debrief/discussion with Burt in the
clubhouse.

I would hope the sailplane pilots at Minden (the above guys are a bit further North at Air Sailing) would be doing the same thing. The Air Sailing pilots are closer to jet approaches into Reno as you know, and may be more aware of the dangers.

As SSA Regional Director, I would hope you would also be encourging a similar action at Minden....

gil in Tucson .... but flown sailplanes many times at Minden, Air Sailing and Truckee

ww2planes said:

[snip] Thank you for your information but remember that most officers know what they are doing and would not jeopardize themselves so cheaply. Especially this one.

Please appreciate the post for what it is, an educational, inspirational and positive post meant to lighten the hearts of its readers.

Click to expand...

A very calm, level-headed, and professional answer. Glad to know you're out there behind the badge. Stay safe.

I still think he was wrong.

You going to erase all of my messages?

NJAdude said:

snip...You going to erase all of my messages?

Click to expand...

If they violate the rules for posting, yes. Posts that are not signed are also held to a higher standard, so if you are looking for a break, letting me know who you are would be a huge step in that direction.

what is the message?

Bill,

Thanks for the post. I think your message is inspirational. The message that I take away is to keep flying the airplane. Follow your emergency procedures. Follow cockpit resource management (you can do that even if you are alone in the cockpit). Get it on the ground in a hurry. Fly it until there is nothing left to fly.

The fuel was almost gone, the engine inlets were damaged, the aerodynamics were severely disrupted, the flight instruments were destroyed on one side, would the other side continue to operate?

You cannot think about the other guy, or was it my fault, or anything other than flying the airplane.

Your team?s fast thinking had people looking for the other airplane or the survivor, which could have been very critical to his survival.

?I am still whirling?? There is nothing more sobering or that brings home the entire safety messages than to see first hand the results of an accident. Your description and emotion add to the message. That is what you brought to us. If we all think our way through this and perhaps if we need, we can draw on the positive results of this accident.

Regards,
John.

Some sailplane there do fly with tranponders, but this ASW 27 seems to have been in the country less than 6 weeks... I don't know if it had a transponder, and some gliders fly in that area with a 1400 code and no Mode C. Battery capacity is a major issue.

Does anyone know if Net Jets are TCAS equipped?

Glider right-of-way is a bit like the sailboat and the QE II - it has right-of-way, but physics always wins....

Click to expand...

I get the impression (I hope I'm not stepping on toes) that many gliders fly without transponders, and the the "big sky" theory is the preferred collision avoidance method.

Several years ago, returning to Memphis from Dallas, I was descending through about 9000' on an IFR flight plan, and very nearly swapped paint with a glider just outside the Memphis Class B. It was a typical late summer day with high (not convective) buildups and I was in and out of the clouds at "top of the green" airspeed. I popped out of a cloud, right under the glider, and then was back in IMC probably 20 seconds later. Center never said a thing, but our minimum separation was less than 200 feet.

I'm a big fan of flight following, even when I'm VFR ;-)

James Freeman

flyeyes said:

I get the impression (I hope I'm not stepping on toes) that many gliders fly without transponders, and the the "big sky" theory is the preferred collision avoidance method.

...

Click to expand...

The glider had a transponder. We don't know yet if it was on or not.

Yes, most gliders do not have transponders.

Another perspective. A blog by a glider pilot.

Transponders

flyeyes said:

I get the impression (I hope I'm not stepping on toes) that many gliders fly without transponders, and the the "big sky" theory is the preferred collision avoidance method.

Several years ago, returning to Memphis from Dallas, I was descending through about 9000' on an IFR flight plan, and very nearly swapped paint with a glider just outside the Memphis Class B. It was a typical late summer day with high (not convective) buildups and I was in and out of the clouds at "top of the green" airspeed. I popped out of a cloud, right under the glider, and then was back in IMC probably 20 seconds later. Center never said a thing, but our minimum separation was less than 200 feet.

I'm a big fan of flight following, even when I'm VFR ;-)

James Freeman

Click to expand...

Interestingly enough, transponders might have made the situation worse for sailplanes.

I remember a flight I made out of Minden in the late 80's to Reno airport and return. I spoke to the Reno TRSA controller (pre Class C) and the controller could "see" my fiberglass sailplane on his radar. It was even sensitive enough he asked about the other sailplane pilot flying 1/4 mile behind me, who was also on frequency.

I think the preponderance of required Mode C altitude reporting transponders has enabled the controllers to only look at the transponder returns, and not the raw returns from non-transponder targets - mainly sailplanes.

I hope someone can now come up with a specification for a lower powered self-contained (why have a separate altitude encoder?) for sailplanes.

Perhaps a controller could comment on the use of raw radar returns in operation?

gil in Tucson .... with a Terra transponder reserved for the sailplane - may be obsolete, but it's one of the lowest powered ones made...

az_gila said:

Interestingly enough, transponders might have made the situation worse for sailplanes.

<snip>
I hope someone can now come up with a specification for a lower powered self-contained (why have a separate altitude encoder?) for sailplanes.

.

Click to expand...

You may well be right. I bought one of these gizmos at OSH, and find that it works as advertised. The batteries last several hours. This might be useful in sailplanes where the logistics of powering transponders over long flights are difficult.

James Freeman

Thanks everyone

Thanks to all for the positive messages and the support.

Jet/glider collision

On an aside note. Congratulations to parachute rigger Darrin Silver on his first save. Hope he receives the customary bottle of his choice from the glider pilot.

Rob Herndon

As reported from - http://www.silverparachutes.com

Keep your eyes open and out of the cockpit!

n5lp said:

The glider had a transponder. We don't know yet if it was on or not.

Yes, most gliders do not have transponders.

Click to expand...

FYI - There are a LOT of powered planes out there withOUT transponders. I know, I used to own one.

Those of you who fly with transponder based traffic reporting devices just remember many J-3's, T-Crafts, Champs, Luscombs, Stearmans, etc. don't have electrical systems and thus are not required to have transponders. Many of them don't even have handheld radios to report their position in the traffic pattern. They cannot use them because of their unshielded ignition systems. Which means if you come screeming into a traffic pattern in a less than standard way, they are not going to know you are there until they see you, if they see you.

Keep your eyes open at all times.

PS. Thank goodness everyone walked away from the accident that prompted this thread.

PPS. Is there a current link to the pictures?

N941WR said:

FYI - There are a LOT of powered planes out there withOUT transponders. I know, I used to own one.

Those of you who fly with transponder based traffic reporting devices just remember many J-3's, T-Crafts, Champs, Luscombs, Stearmans, etc. don't have electrical systems and thus are not required to have transponders. Many of them don't even have handheld radios to report their position in the traffic pattern. They cannot use them because of their unshielded ignition systems. Which means if you come screeming into a traffic pattern in a less than standard way, they are not going to know you are there until they see you, if they see you.

Keep your eyes open at all times.

Click to expand...

I would like to add my voice to this warning. Unlike Bill who said he used to fly a plane without a transponder. I currently fly one without a transponder. I generally fly low and slow in my current plane so hope to not have an incident with a fast cruising jet anytime in my lifetime. However, I will say that I often worry about the faster aircraft I fly around not seeing me.

I have had one incident where I had a close encounter with a V-tail Bonanza who just about had my plane stuck to his windscreen like a splatted bug. If it had not been for another pilot flying ahead of me warning me of his impending approach into my airspace and my traffic scanning while flying I would have been that bug. To this day I do not know who the pilot is or where the plane in question is out of, but if I ever have an occasion to discover who this pilot was I would enjoy a lengthy conversation with him about his flying habits.

At the time of the incident I was flying at 4500' with a heading of 330 degrees. He was flying 4500' with a heading of 060 degrees. Once I was warned of traffic at my 12 o'clock from my flying buddy I had less than 10 or 15 seconds to varify the contact and take evasive action. I immediatly dove my plane down and banked to the right in order to avoid the collision. The Bonanaza flew directly over the top of me by about 50 or so feet. The plane made no attempts at evasion and did not deviate from its heading or altitude. It was as if the pilot never looked out the window.

Believe me when I say that coming that close to a real game of chicken in the sky is not my idea of enjoyable flying. For any out there who do not have occasion to fly outside of controlled spaces with all the electronic gadgetry at your disposal please think about all the other planes out there flying stick and rudder and VFR. Keep a vigilant look out the window for traffic that your instruments may not pick up. Your eyes and brain will always be the best instruments you will ever fly with.

Pics removed

Any chance the pic could be reposted? Imageshack removed them due to bandwidth...

Not sure if same photos, but try this..


http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/007288.html