Good question, are they the same or different o rings?It wasn't a matter of "years", but rather 7-8 months... what I've been wondering, is there a difference in size between the Challenger's and the S15's o-rings?
Good question, are they the same or different o rings?It wasn't a matter of "years", but rather 7-8 months... what I've been wondering, is there a difference in size between the Challenger's and the S15's o-rings?
Maybe I’ve been living under a rock for a few decades but this hand tight plus xx of a turn business seems rather fraught - especially given the design of the k&p/challenger. Not hard to see how that can go south if you look at the interface.
For me it’s always been lubed with the specified DowCorning (or oil…) then torque to 18-20 foot pounds. Same number for a regular champion/tempest or a k&p/challenger.
If the oring and related gland are properly dimensioned, there is a lot of room for torque variance. If the OEM states hand tight + 1/4 turn is acceptable, I wouldn't think twice about it. Whatever the OEM's instructions, follow it. That said, it sounds as though there may be material quality in addition to installation variables in play. This will reveal itself.I'd say it was too loose. I've always tightened my S15 to 18 Ft pounds as per the instructions. Seems way tight to me after wrenching for 50 years, but that's what the instructions say. Glad your instincts made you turn around.
That's not what "absolute" means in filter ratings. That term and likewise "relative" haven't really been used for a few decades in the industry. Does your offering state a beta ratio?Just wanted to let folks know, I am selling a similar lifetime oil filter which has been working well in various RVs. The one I sell has a 30 micron absolute filtration. "Absolute" meaning the stainless filter membrane doesn't degrade/compress after hours of use like the paper filters do. Doug Beatty has a great facebook write up on the one he purchased from me. I would add the link but I struggle to find it as I'm not facebook savy. But I can add a link to the filter below. Price already includes shipping and if you need a nipple for application, I have been advising my customers to just pull the one off your old filter.
Lifetime Oil Filter
Why pay double? Fits Lycoming engines Direct replacement for Champion & Tempest filters Precision CNC-machined billet aluminum body Knurled non-slip grip surface 30-micron absolute filtration Cleanable/reusable surgical-grade stainless steel woven filter element Disassembles without tools for...cranford-aviation-supply.myshopify.com
If you have any questions, feel free to PM me or send me an e-mail via the website.
All the Best,
Dan
Is your filter one of the filters being tested at the lab? Confirmation of your specs would greatly help your sales. If not, why didn't you send it?Just wanted to let folks know, I am selling a similar lifetime oil filter which has been working well in various RVs. The one I sell has a 30 micron absolute filtration. "Absolute" meaning the stainless filter membrane doesn't degrade/compress after hours of use like the paper filters do. Doug Beatty has a great facebook write up on the one he purchased from me. I would add the link but I struggle to find it as I'm not facebook savy. But I can add a link to the filter below. Price already includes shipping and if you need a nipple for application, I have been advising my customers to just pull the one off your old filter.
Lifetime Oil Filter
Why pay double? Fits Lycoming engines Direct replacement for Champion & Tempest filters Precision CNC-machined billet aluminum body Knurled non-slip grip surface 30-micron absolute filtration Cleanable/reusable surgical-grade stainless steel woven filter element Disassembles without tools for...cranford-aviation-supply.myshopify.com
If you have any questions, feel free to PM me or send me an e-mail via the website.
All the Best,
Dan
One can also use the NAPA Gold 1068 filter, by switching threads. Been using them for years in my RV6A 0-360. Cheap by the case on sale !With the inability to get CH 48108-1 oil filters anywhere I remember seeing something about re-usable oil filters. I searched the forms but can't find it. Looking to see what experience people have with them, what the process is for cleaning and inspecting, and overall how good they are. Seems like something that would pay for itself rather quickly.
Thanks!
Is your filter one of the filters being tested at the lab? Confirmation of your specs would greatly help your sales. If not, why didn't you send it?
Easy to drill a small hole in one of the cooling fins. Theres lots of meat there.How do you guys safety wire the S15 filter?
Or you don't?
Mine isn't at a lab. If I knew this was happening, I would have gladly sent it in. How do I get in on this?Is your filter one of the filters being tested at the lab? Confirmation of your specs would greatly help your sales. If not, why didn't you send it?
Mine isn't at a lab. If I knew this was happening, I would have gladly sent it in. How do I get in on this?
Wow, certainly a good tear. And to happen after 20 hrs since the oil change is strange and 200 hrs on the o ring so it wasn't installed this last time dry. A good lesson here for all of us to make sure we pay extra attention to this when changing our oil. For that matter any filter. Any more of these happening and I think there will be a bunch of these filters sitting on the shelf. Myself I do a lot of flying over the mountains here in western canada and I'm going to be thinking seriously if this is the route I want to go.
just a clarification from my side: it's been 70h on the ring and 20h since the oil changeAnd to happen after 20 hrs since the oil change is strange and 200 hrs on the o ring
just a clarification from my side: it's been 70h on the ring and 20h since the oil change
It's a genuine ring
I'm back on Tempest
An amazing failure for a properly lubricated and installed "O" ring.
Being in the PNW we also do a lot of flying over the mountains. A friend who has been using a Challenger filter on the engine of his RV-8 just finished an oil change last week. When he removed the Challenger filter this last time he noticed some damage to the seal (but no oil leakage), so he installed a new seal upon reinstallation. But before he had a chance to fly after the oil change, and upon seeing the experience of 'glider_rider' and the Mooney incident, he decided to remove the Challenger filter and put a Champion back on until he thinks about the whole situation a bit more.Any more of these happening and I think there will be a bunch of these filters sitting on the shelf. Myself I do a lot of flying over the mountains here in western canada and I'm going to be thinking seriously if this is the route I want to go.
Tim
Yup, no question about that. It would be interesting to see what seal damage he had and after how many changes. Not sure what elastomer they are using, but might be something that we use once and then file it.Being in the PNW we also do a lot of flying over the mountains. A friend who has been using a Challenger filter on the engine of his RV-8 just finished an oil change last week. When he removed the Challenger filter this last time he noticed some damage to the seal, so he installed a new seal upon reinstallation. But before he had a chance to fly after the oil change, and upon seeing the experience of 'glider_rider' and the Mooney incident, he decided to remove the Challenger filter and put a Champion back on until he thinks about the whole situation a bit more.
It's the risk matrix thing: the probability of having a massive oil leak may be low, but the consequences can be catastrophic if it occurs.
I reused it once, so it was after its second installation. It had been used about 70 hours.Yup, no question about that. It would be interesting to see what seal damage he had and after how many changes. Not sure what elastomer they are using, but might be something that we use once and then file it.
Visually from my end looks like the damage happened during make up, break out or both. Was it lubed with anything before installation? I'm assuming no galling present on the face of the oil filter housing?I reused it once, so it was after its second installation. It had been used about 70 hours.
My experience is similar to Steve’s after the second use. Pictures look identical. Which is why I use it once, flip it, use it a second time then toss.I reused it once, so it was after its second installation. It had been used about 70 hours.
Yes, it was lubricated with clean oil before installation and tightened per the Challenger instructions, which are a bit vague "install by hand until it begins to get tight, then 1/4 turn". Was it over tightened? It's possible, but I don't think so.My experience is similar to Steve’s after the second use. Pictures look identical. Which is why I use it once, flip it, use it a second time then toss.
I wet the recess with oil, then wet the entire X ring with oil using my fingers before inserting into the recess. I finally wet the mating surface with a light coat of oil. I tighten by hand then use a torque wrench to 18 ft lb.
A 1/4 turn from my girl friend to a 1/4 turn with a guy with 18 inch arms could be easily be another 1/2 turn. Yes I know that's what they say but there can be a huge difference on torque specs based on this alone.Yes, it was lubricated with clean oil before installation and tightened per the Challenger instructions, which are a bit vague "install by hand until it begins to get tight, then 1/4 turn". Was it over tightened? It's possible, but I don't think so.
I wonder if a traditional circular cross section "O" ring would be a viable option? Viton is rated to somewhere in the 400f range.A 1/4 turn from my girl friend to a 1/4 turn with a guy with 18 inch arms could be easily be another 1/2 turn. Yes I know that's what they say but there can be a huge difference on torque specs based on this alone.
Mine has an adaptor that allows me to use this amazing device...................what's it called?....................Oh, yeah: Torque wrench! That way my girlfriend doesn't have to get her hands dirty....A 1/4 turn from my girl friend to a 1/4 turn with a guy with 18 inch arms could be easily be another 1/2 turn. Yes I know that's what they say but there can be a huge difference on torque specs based on this alone.
I was reading here and there about the oil pressure in car engines. Looks like 65-75 PSI is the red line in most automotive applications, much less than in Lycoming. Would that difference be a factor? I mean would that explain why our O rings failed?There are likely thousands of these units of various types in service, both on aircraft and other engines.
O-Rings are used all the time in high pressure hydraulics. The brake system of our aircraft is one example.I was reading here and there about the oil pressure in car engines. Looks like 65-75 PSI is the red line in most automotive applications, much less than in Lycoming. Would that difference be a factor? I mean would that explain why our O rings failed?
Let me be somewhat more specific: is the S15 O-ring sized / shaped properly for 115 PSI?O-Rings are used all the time in high pressure hydraulics. The brake system of our aircraft is one example.
Yes, why not? Not sure about yours, but my experience thru close to 900 hours use = 18 times of filter removal, checking, cleaning, examining seal, reinstalling, and there always is filter base to mating surface contact, of course, your own experience may differ.Properly installed, the filter base should not contact the mating surface
I agree, Ive changed a lot of filters in my day and Ive never had any filter to base contact, ever. Now maybe this design is different but ...... It would probably be in the directions to torque until you have bottomed out, and stop. Lol and I haven't seen that stated anywhere.Lube ONLY the face of the O ring. Screw on finger tight.... (i.o.w. contact.) Then tighten 1/4 turn. Or torque to15ft.lbs.
Properly installed, the filter base should not contact the mating surface.
A 1/4 turn is a quarter turn, regardless of who is doing the turning.A 1/4 turn from my girl friend to a 1/4 turn with a guy with 18 inch arms could be easily be another 1/2 turn. Yes I know that's what they say but there can be a huge difference on torque specs based on this alone.
I agree that a 1/4 turn is a 1/4 turn. It's the starting point that will vary.A 1/4 turn is a quarter turn, regardless of who is doing the turning.
Hand tight and then an additional quarter turn is a whole different story.
That is why at Van's I argued that the terms finger tight and hand tight never be used in the construction manuals.
To be consistent, spin on the filter just till the O ring makes contact. Mark the top of the filter then torque to 15 ft.# and see where the mark ends up....... New O rings. They're cheap.I agree that a 1/4 turn is a 1/4 turn. It's the starting point that will vary.
Ya, like 25 or 30% difference.Play the video..... https://kandpengineering.com/cleaning/ It says 15ft lbs.
So is it 15ft lbs, or 20ft lbs? Quite a gap for an O ring.
Maybe room if you used one of these.Unfortunately on the -6 there's no room for a torque wrench between the filter and the firewall... Time for a 90 degree adapter perhaps...
:O I didn't even know that existed. That's an awesome idea.Maybe room if you used one of these.