N42AH

N42AH

Well Known Member
Wouldn't this be nice

From AVweb:

Senior aviation medical examiner Dr. Brent Blue (of AeroMedix.com) thinks "the FAA is actually starting to float the idea of either dropping or relaxing third class medicals." Find out why he thinks so and what may matter more in the case of second and first class certification.

http://www.avweb.com/podcast/podcas...icalCertificate_203881-1.html?kw=RelatedStory

Also here is a link to the petition submitted by the owner of Potomac airfield to not require medicals for those that fly aircraft under 6000 lbs.

http://www.potomac-airfield.com/dot_petition.htm
 
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Interesting Economic Questions

Wonder what would happen to the market for LSA's if the 3rd class medical went to self-certification?
 
jsherblon said:
Wonder what would happen to the market for LSA's if the 3rd class medical went to self-certification?
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Interesting question!

I'd speculate that it would depending on whether it was mostly new pilots buying LSAs or older pilots who cannot keep their medical. Anecdotally, I know several folks in the latter category, but none in the former.
 
I run in a different crowd, but ALL LSA plane owners I know are non medical PP people. My feeling is that if medicals were not needed for any planes under 6000 lbs, the inflated LSA market value would plummet, as I and others would jump into the four place retractable constant speed prop planes that are selling very low right now and we cannot fly..

ChiefPilot said:
Interesting question!

I'd speculate that it would depending on whether it was mostly new pilots buying LSAs or older pilots who cannot keep their medical. Anecdotally, I know several folks in the latter category, but none in the former.
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lose the 3rd class rule!

As someone who lost his 3rd class and had to sell my RV this year I find this interesting.

While going back and forth with the FAA Aeromedical folks, with help from AOPA and EAA they freely admitted to "making a mistake" by issuing my 3rd class in 2001 and allowing me to fly from then until 2009 while on a disallowed med to treat a "very mild case of IBS".

They renewed it several times after reviewing and requesting and getting all my medical info, they then used me as an example in an article in the AOPA magazine about two years ago as a case study of how they had made it easier for us to GET our medical issued in conditional cases!

But even though I had safely flown all that time and can drive a car while on that medicine they chose to pull my 3rd class at the same time they announced that Airline Pilots that were "diagnosed" as depressed could take antidepressants and fly passenger aircraft!

They even told me it was kinda goofy but that the process will eventually catch up and in the mean time I needed to surrender the physical license by registered mail or face criminal prosecution!! They called me to make sure I sent it even while they were still vacilating if they would indeed make me surrender it after all the "mistakes" they had made.

Oh and I HAD disclosed the med and the condition on every application including the first one in 2001 and two years worth of paperwork and requests for more information from 2007-2009. They said they "missed it".

It gets better, with my files in hand they told me I could stop taking the meds, even though I could possibly end up in the hospital, with death as one possible outcome of stopping the meds but then I could fly!

Oh and all the Doctors told them the biggest risk of me flying with the meds was that if my IBS flared up and I couldnt land and find a bathroom quickly enough I might lose some of my dignity by ruining my pants but that noone else would be at risk of injury due to my soiled pants.

I told them I loved flying but death was not an option or risk I was willing to take.

If they finally get some common sense and drop the 3rd class as it exists and follow the 6000lbs and a valid drivers license thing then the only thing would be if they leave in the LSA provision of "if you have been denied or revoked" because I have.

Where does "threatened by the FAA" come into the paperwork?

I went to the website and added my name to the petition just now.

I hope more people do. Common sense is clearly lacking when a triple organ transplant patient can get his medical back but I can't! Even they thought it was a bit odd "but that is the policy and it is subject to change".

Here's my chance and maybe many more folks too.
 
Bummer

jimpappas said:
As someone who lost his 3rd class and had to sell my RV this year I find this interesting.

While going back and forth with the FAA Aeromedical folks, with help from AOPA and EAA they freely admitted to "making a mistake" by issuing my 3rd class in 2001 and allowing me to fly from then until 2009 while on a disallowed med to treat a "very mild case of IBS"....SNIP.
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Man, oh man, Jim. That is a Bummer with a capital "B." I feel for you. It's a wonder you didn't get high blood pressure going through all this with them.

This just seems so unfair.

I'm glad you're staying in touch with these forums, but I don't know much else to say. It sounds like you tried every way possible to maintain your Class III.

Sincerely,

P.S. Not to be flippant, but if that astronaut could wear a diaper from Texas to Florida, I wonder why a GA pilot couldn't discretely wear a Depends undergarment. I once worked with an engineer who had "IBS." There were times when he had to immediately leave the room to go to the men's room.
 
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3rd class

So you guys know, I had the head of AOPA Aeromedical working on my case and ultimately it was Dr Silberman the head of the FAA that made the call on my case.

He's the same guy that did the interview with AOPA and used me as an example of what a great job he was doing.

I have never gotten into detail online but if this policy has a chance of passing I will open up to a point.

I had the best help from a lady at AOPA medical, the head of AOPA medical and and even the local FAA office all of them were angry with the outcome and frustrated.

Now that I have had the bout with cancer this year it will be a while before I am able to fly again anyway so if my disclosing some of this and it helps someone that's great!

IBS is VERY common, I have been told it could be as high as 1 in 4 people, not sure it's that high but it is very common and varies in severity.

Mine was clinically defined as "extremely mild IBS" ultimately it was the medicine not the disease that they took exception to as it was used to treat anxiety as well as IBS and it was not listed as one of the 4 meds that are OK to be on for depression or stress.

I agree with the concept that any pilot that is safe enough to drive, especially one rated to operate big rigs should be able to fly subject to the same rules like if you get a DUI you lose the privilege to drive and to fly but having a bad gut should not keep you from flying. What next if your prostate makes you go too often and you take a med they dont like will they ban that too or have they already.

Oh and here was the one that put me over the edge when they pulled it.

I asked for a list of approved meds so I could give it to my internist so he might pick one they approved and was told they dont keep a current list anymore because it's too hard to maintain and my Doctor should pick 4-5 meds and they would tell HIM which one I could use!

Government telling us what meds we can take, hmmm.....???
 
Not to be lost in the discussion, is that crazy catch 22 bit about if you are denied flying by failing a medical, you cannot fly Sport Pilot either! That is insane in my view. I have a number of reasons that I could not pass another medical, so I have never tried. Yet the person who HAS tried and failed, cannot exercise sport pilot privileges, even though he is in all probability far safer than I who knew he could not pass (I am a diabetic, have pacemaker and defibrillator implant, taking an anti depressant not on the approved list, etc, etc., yet I am good to go!).
 
DonFromTX said:
I run in a different crowd, but ALL LSA plane owners I know are non medical PP people. My feeling is that if medicals were not needed for any planes under 6000 lbs, the inflated LSA market value would plummet, as I and others would jump into the four place retractable constant speed prop planes that are selling very low right now and we cannot fly..
Click to expand...

DonFromTX said:
Yet the person who HAS tried and failed, cannot exercise sport pilot privileges, even though he is in all probability far safer than I who knew he could not pass (I am a diabetic, have pacemaker and defibrillator implant, taking an anti depressant not on the approved list, etc, etc., yet I am good to go!).
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No offense, but that's exactly why this idea is so dumb!! Let's pile MORE innocent passengers into faster, heavier, more complicated airplanes so that we risk even more life in the air and on the ground.

If they do away with the 3rd class, then I will be happy to fly my RV forever, but will need to find a new job, as the budding LSA industry will surely be gone. :( Or maybe we will just need to build $25,000 ultralights instead.
 
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Ohh you young gals know how to bring an old guy down! I do understand though, when I was your age I thought that old people should not be flying either! On the other hand, we have been doing it for decades without incident, so I guess we are lulled into thinking it will go on forever.
I also have a number of friends who have not "bothered" to get a medical for decades, and have no intention of getting one.

KatieB said:
No offense, but that's exactly why this idea is so dumb!! Let's pile MORE innocent and perhaps unknowing people into faster, more complicated airplanes so that we risk even more life in the air and on the ground.

If they do away with the 3rd class, then I will be happy to fly my RV forever, but will need to find a new job, as the budding LSA industry will surely be gone. :( Or maybe we will just need to build $25,000 ultralights instead.
Click to expand...
 
I also have a number of friends who have not "bothered" to get a medical for decades, and have no intention of getting one.

If you are single and have no family or assets to forsake in a liability lawsuit then that make be a way to go. I prefer not to leave my family penniless and become the Brett Farve of aviation.
 
If your condition is as you say, you are not legal to fly LSA either without a medical. This is a big misconception....if you know you have a disqualifyig condition, you cannot self certify.


DonFromTX said:
Not to be lost in the discussion, is that crazy catch 22 bit about if you are denied flying by failing a medical, you cannot fly Sport Pilot either! That is insane in my view. I have a number of reasons that I could not pass another medical, so I have never tried. Yet the person who HAS tried and failed, cannot exercise sport pilot privileges, even though he is in all probability far safer than I who knew he could not pass (I am a diabetic, have pacemaker and defibrillator implant, taking an anti depressant not on the approved list, etc, etc., yet I am good to go!).
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I disagree that you are 100% correct in that statement. The above case of IBT is an example, I feel sure that the Sport Pilot rules never intended to prohibit one with IBT from flying as a sport pilot. Here is from the FAA website the "official" answer. My doctors have cleared me for flying without reservation, I have the responsibility to ground myself "during periods of medical deficiency".

"If I suspect I have a significant medical condition, but have never had an FAA medical certificate denied, suspended, or revoked, can I exercise sport pilot privileges using my current and valid driver?s license, if otherwise qualified?

Response by the Federal Air Surgeon
Long-standing FAA regulation, ? 61.53, prohibits all pilots--those who are required to hold airman medical certificates and those who are not--from exercising privileges during periods of medical deficiency. The FAA revised ? 61.53 to include under this prohibition sport pilots who use a current and valid U.S. driver?s license as medical qualification. The prohibition is also added under ?? 61.23 (c) (2) (iv) and 61.303 (b) (2) (4) for sport pilot operations.

You should consult your private physician to determine whether you have a medical deficiency that would interfere with the safe performance of sport piloting duties. Certain medical information that may be helpful for pilots can be found in our Pilot Safety Brochures."
 
KatieB said:
No offense, but that's exactly why this idea is so dumb!! Let's pile MORE innocent passengers into faster, heavier, more complicated airplanes so that we risk even more life in the air and on the ground.
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No offense to you either but those same pilots have absolutely no restrictions from packing 8,10,12 people in a passenger van and driving them 70 MPH down the interstate with the very same medical conditions that everyone finds unacceptable for them to have while they fly. I would find those medical conditions of much more risk while driving a high rate of speed within a few feet of other fast moving vehicles than the risk they would pose for piloting an aircraft. Unless the pilot is a type that holds no regard for self discipline in protecting himself and others from harm he is going to still be able to make good decisions as pilot in command.

KatieB said:
If they do away with the 3rd class, then I will be happy to fly my RV forever, but will need to find a new job, as the budding LSA industry will surely be gone. :( Or maybe we will just need to build $25,000 ultralights instead.
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The LSA market is turning out to have very little difference from the general aviation industry as a whole when it comes to marketing and pricing.

This is my opinion only of course, but I do not care how much talk the alphabet groups give to concepts such as improving flight training or changing the way we present flying opportunities to new pilots. The true issue that is FLAT OUT KILLING the industry is the PRICE of aviation. That goes for not only the cost of entry but the cost of every aspect of flying.

LSA's were touted early on to be inexpensive aircraft that everyone would be able to afford. However, once they were finally available for purchase they were all priced at what is still ridiculously out of reach for 90% of the population.

Lest someone respond to my statements referring to economies of scale and all that please refrain yourself. I am fully aware of economies of scale and how it works. That retort has been brought up time and time again. But the truth is there has to be something that first pushes the demand to the brink that will allow economies of scale to benefit the manufactures. Selling to only 10% of the population and then trying to convince everyone that overpriced airplane is a great bargain will not get there. $100,000 only looks like a bargain to someone who spends $500,000 to $1,000,000 or more. How many of us think spending $500,000 or $1,000,000 on an airplane is, or should be, a normal price to pay for an aircraft? I know I don't!

My .02 done. Waiting for the whip with armor on.
 
Steve, you are right. I believe that the intent of the LSA concept was good. It just has not turned out well.

I don't have prices, but it would not surprise me that you can buy a used Cessna 172 (perhaps 20-30 years old) for half the price of a new Cessna LSA.

I know a person with a trike that may have cost more than my RV-6A. Does that make sense?
 
Gosh If They Lose the 3rd Class Medical

People that know their limitations and are very experienced flying general aviation airplanes will be able to continue to fly safely.

The pilot population which is largely made up of these folks will not continue to decline.

FBOs and businesses dependent on GA will survive and grow.

The Light Sport Aircraft industry will decline to extinction.

I won't defecate razor blades every two years.

I like it!

Bob Axsom
 
Bob Axsom said:
The Light Sport Aircraft industry will decline to extinction.

Bob Axsom
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Or, perhaps they will adapt to the new conditions.

There are always folks who prefer to buy something new, even though there is a better deal on something used.
 
I think you got it right Bob.
I can buy a perfectly good 172 or Cherokee 140 for less than 20k, so why would I want to buy an LSA for 100k+? Medicals are shaping the market, like it or not. I am building an RV12, but if there were no medicals it would be an RV10! The average age of an RV12 builder is shocking!

Bob Axsom said:
People that know their limitations and are very experienced flying general aviation airplanes will be able to continue to fly safely.

The pilot population which is largely made up of these folks will not continue to decline.

FBOs and businesses dependent on GA will survive and grow.

The Light Sport Aircraft industry will decline to extinction.

I won't defecate razor blades every two years.

I like it!

Bob Axsom
Click to expand...
 
I posted the following comments on the NPRM:

4 main reasons for supporting: 1) Thousands of pilots currently flying under Light Sport that would be considered medical risks under current Private Pilot rules. There have been zero medical incapacitation incidents. The overall in Private is less than 1%--this proves no correlation of incapacitation in those with medicals vs those without. 2) medical status is a dynamic issue inasmuch as it can quickly change. Awarding a Pilot certificate suggests a level of responsibility that can be extended toward self certification. 3) current system illogical--a person failing a 3rd class medical could drive home in a 20,000 lb motorhome towing a trailer and perform brain surgery on someone that same day. 4) FAA medical department is hopelessly bogged down with miniscule aspects and needs relief to focus on commercial applicants.
 
Alternative to the 3rd class?

I'd like to see something on the lines of dropping the 3rd class and changing the self-certifying to be expanded.

With a few exceptions, no one has a death wish, and no one that I know of would put anyone else in harms way needlessly, when I was flying, I wouldn't fly when I didn't even feel in the right mood to fly when the aircraft was scheduled.

On the other hand, I think it should be a requirement of the pilot population in general to see a DR on a regular basis, be it annual,bi-annual,semi-annual. Get blood work done, get a physical. I say this as I was diagnosed when I went in to renew my 3rd class. I was feeling fine, and didn't feel I had any health issues warranted going to the dr. If I kept on going with out the visit, and didn't have this encounter, then I might be worse off today.

I see friends, who look like in need of help, not getting the help that they really need cause they simply don't want to go to the Dr unless they are profusely bleeding or on "death's doorstep" Our bodies need maintenance just as much as the aircraft that we fly. Just like we send oil off to be analyzed, our blood should be sent off as well.
 
Brian, well said.

I have often wondered how many folks put off going to a MD so there will not be a record of a visit that they have to report???

I know I have.......
 
In my view, David Wartofsky (owner of Potomac Airfield) has framed the argument for abolishing the 3rd class medical (when flying GA aircraft weighing 6000 lbs or less) both accurately and convincingly. One?s own moral view of what is or is not safe is not really the point here?this is a regulatory matter pure and simple. Our government is exercising power that essentially restricts the freedom of certain individuals under the guise of making the general public safer. [I suspect that many believe (as I do) that exercises of this nature are often not effective at best, and counter-productive at worst, but that point can be debate elsewhere.] When such regulations (restrictions) are created they must be applied in an even handed manner to all comparable activities (see ?Equal Protection Clause, 14th amendment, U.S. Constitution).

Therefore, the question is not whether people with certain medical conditions should be permitted to fly GA without a 3rd class medical. The question is whether people with the same medical conditions are permitted to engage in ?other? activities that place the public in similar or greater risk WITHOUT a 3rd class medical or equivalent. If this can be demonstrated to be the case, then such regulations constitute and abuse in that they arbitrarily favor one similarly ?risky? activity over another.

By pointing out how the activities undertaken by GA pilots and drivers (commercial and otherwise) pose largely similar risks to the general public (I happen to agree that driving actually poses a greater risk) a compelling case is made for requiring either 1) all driver?s license recipients pass a 3rd class medical, or 2) GA pilots who fly aircraft weighing 6000 lbs or less need only obtain a driver?s license.

Finally, regarding the LSA industry I agree that the delta between the ?steak and the sizzle? has been considerable. What was touted as the justification and rationale for the market (i.e. LOW COST and growing the pilot ranks) has simply not been realized. I have no data to support this observation, but my anecdotal reading strongly suggests that a substantial portion of the LSA market (to date, at least) is comprised of older PP?s that have lost their 3rd class medical and NOT new pilots. If anyone had actual reliable data on this please feel free to set me straight.
 
vandi said:
I'd like to see something on the lines of dropping the 3rd class and changing the self-certifying to be expanded.

With a few exceptions, no one has a death wish, and no one that I know of would put anyone else in harms way needlessly, when I was flying, I wouldn't fly when I didn't even feel in the right mood to fly when the aircraft was scheduled.

On the other hand, I think it should be a requirement of the pilot population in general to see a DR on a regular basis, be it annual,bi-annual,semi-annual. Get blood work done, get a physical. I say this as I was diagnosed when I went in to renew my 3rd class. I was feeling fine, and didn't feel I had any health issues warranted going to the dr. If I kept on going with out the visit, and didn't have this encounter, then I might be worse off today.

I see friends, who look like in need of help, not getting the help that they really need cause they simply don't want to go to the Dr unless they are profusely bleeding or on "death's doorstep" Our bodies need maintenance just as much as the aircraft that we fly. Just like we send oil off to be analyzed, our blood should be sent off as well.
Click to expand...

Actually weather you go see an MD or not and weather you live or die as a result is each persons responsibility weather you are a pilot or not, at my last medical the DR told me the way to stay healthy was to stay away from doctors!

The third class medical is stupid and should go away for all the reasons already listed. The LSA class airplane will still be sold to some pilots because it fits there mission, just the other day a fellow said he was building an RV-12 because it was an easer/quicker build, he was young and has his medical.

I think the FAA intentionally excluded 99% of the current GA fleet from ?LSA? and that screwed 99% of the private GA pilots.
 
Russ McCutcheon said:
Actually weather you go see an MD or not and weather you live or die as a result is each persons responsibility weather you are a pilot or not, at my last medical the DR told me the way to stay healthy was to stay away from doctors!
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If they dumped the 3rd class medical, what is the public/media's perception going to be when the first time a PP dies at the controls on approach to landing and crashes into a badly placed park with a bunch of kids playing...when cause of death is determined to be an long term illness that could have been found with a simple trip to the Dr and medications could have extended the life of the poor soul.

It seems like around the world this does happen a couple of times of years with cars/trucks. Car smashes into a street market, etc... like previously said, we can all drive a several ton trailer down the road behind our several ton RV with out the care of the world.

But the "boys with the dangerous toys" flying over us in these stupid contraptions with who knows what kind of ailments...

Without some sort of "compromise" I would think the flying community would end up worse off than by having the medical.

I'm all for getting rid of it, just playing devils advocate looking at potential long term issues.

What about getting rid of the annual inspections for our aircraft while you are at it?
 
Kinetic Energy

An odd slant on this. I have always wondered how the weight of the LSA class was selected. I still don't know, but looking at it from an engineering side and that the government is tryiing to protect the General Public I was guessing maybe it was the Kinetic Energy (KE) generated when something goes really bad. So I rigged up a table to show the kinetic energy of various collisions. With respect to John Q Public in a simple sense lower KE means less danger. While there are a ton of other variables including probability of occurance (head on collision vs. smacking the earth?,speeds, angle of impact, etc.) at a first order engineering look it seems to <edit> be aviation is at least on par as far as risk of the KE being inadvertantly applied to an unsuspecting public due to pilot or driver incapacitation while operating the vehicle.

Condition___________________Resulting Kinetic Energy (J)
RV12 vs. Earth______________1.03E+06
RV12 vne vs. Earth __________1.09E+06
RV7 vs. Earth_______________3.84E+06
C172 vs. Earth______________2.19E+06
C172vne vs. Earth___________3.91E+06
RV10 vs. Earth______________5.44E+06
Bonanza vs. Earth___________6.78E+06
Bonanza vne vs. Earth_______8.53E+06
6klb SUV vs. 6Klb SUV________2.67E+06
20klb RV vs. 6klb SUV________5.78E+06
65Klb. Semi vs. 65kbl Semi____2.89E+07
65klb. Semi vs. 6klb SUV______1.58E+07
65klb. Semi vs. house________1.44E+07
6klb SUV vs. house__________1.33E+06

Assume vehicle velocity is head on collision (i.e both vehicles doing 70mph) <assumption edited >
Aircraft speeds are max speed and Vne, published weight gross

Moderator's comment: For us "Graybeards," E+06 means "10 to the 6th power, or 1,000,000," so 1.03E+06 is equal to 1,030,000 and so forth. Some of us were born before exponents were invented. :rolleyes:
 
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A Certain Medical Exam

Bob Axsom said:
...<SNIP>I won't defecate razor blades every two years.<SNIP>...Bob Axsom
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Some of us older guys know EXACTLY what you are referring to, and I agree, I'd rather not subject myself to THAT every year. :eek:
 
I say that the risk for medical issues impacting a PIC's ability to control an airplane will go down if you do away with 3rd class medicals. Reason is that I feel many hide their issues from their doctors or don't go to the doctor and or lie on the medical application in fear of losing the medical.

I know it happens cuz I was one of them (would not go to the doctor) and it could have very well costed me my life (or worse someone elses as well).
 
hiding conditions or going untreated

Is exactly the rationale that the FAA used in explaining why they created the new rule last year that allows 4 specific antidepressants to be taken for ATP rated pilots.

They said they hoped pilots would come forward and begin getting treatment and then if they took those meds they could fly again with 3-400 passengers and be totally safe!
 
Kinetic Energy

Bruce - you are correct the speed isn't doubled, I corrected the KE values so the total assumed the individual vehicles KE in the total. Still a bigger number and I am not sure what the Myth Boys found but all that KE goes somewhere???(Metal deformation, heat, residual motion of parts). I was just trying to compare the magnitude of the energy available when it goes bad.
 
The pro/con of 3rd class medicals aside, the scope of the issue itself is worth reflecting on. From a recent AOPA summary:

"The FAA processes about 450,000 medical applications each year. Only about 0.7% of applicants are denied, and many of those just accept the denial and don?t continue to pursue certification. Of those who do provide additional information to the FAA, about 0.1% of them receive a final denial. So, that boils down to about 300-400 final denials each year."

At this point, I'll switch from data to two assumptions:
1. Of those 0.7% who were denied and didn't pursue certification, most accepted that they didn't meet the medical requirements or they had no further interest in flying. (Let's save the debate on the requirements for elsewhere. They simply knew they wouldn't qualify or didn't care to).
2. In any population of 450,000 - but especially in populations of 450,000 mostly middle aged and older individuals - there are likely to be 400+ individuals many of us wouldn't want to climb into a cockpit with due to their limited physical abilities.

A medical denial to an individual with an interest in aviation is a BIG issue. The issue itself is numerically minor and, as suggested by the numbers, may well justify the medical class. What I hear most folks complaining about (and you see in this thread) is the process itself, which can be medically costly, involve reviews of long duration (altho' that has been improved over the last few years as reviews were pushed down to the regional FSDO level, and are especially costly for professional pilots who earn their living in the cockpit.

It's especially disappointing to hear of a case (early in this thread) where those responsible for a govt. process can only offer a shrug of the shoulders for a decision that, on any other level, apparently was not defensible. That's unfair to the individual but also to the credibility of the process itself.

Jack
 
I know I went to public schools, but even my limited math tells me that with 7/10 of 1 percent failing annually, we are talking about over 3,100 (not 300+) people every year who can't fly from that point on because a government agency that is supposed to be promoting aviation says they can't. I don't care much what others think on this one, I say that is wrong and in my judgement constitutes an indefensible government intrusion in the life of the nations citizens. Commercial and airline flying is another matter entirely, but there is no justification for this level of limitation on people who simply want to fly an aircraft recreationally.

As others have said, as soon as you fail your 3rd Class physical and can't fly any more, you can go get in your car and drive home through any neighborhood, school district, or on any Interstate in this country or any other. You can't fly OVER them for a even a split second, but you can drive ON them for hours, in a vehicle that weighs (typically) three times as much as any GA airplane and which has little freedom of maneuver (compared to an aircraft) without hitting another vehicle full of people.

Truth is, the sky could be raining airplanes (though it's not) and the odds would be that the vast majority wouldn't hit anything. I say if you are medically safe to drive a car, you are medically safe to fly a GA airplane. It's long since time for the FAA to drop 3rd Class medical requirements entirely. And, yes I still have mine and don't expect to lose it anytime soon.

Regards,

Lee...
 
Jack Tyler said:
2. In any population of 450,000 - but especially in populations of 450,000 mostly middle aged and older individuals - there are likely to be 400+ individuals many of us wouldn't want to climb into a cockpit with due to their limited physical abilities.
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I would add to this that there are pilots out there I wouldn't choose to fly with, not because of their physical health but because they display obvious evidence of poor judgement. Personally I've known two such individuals who are no longer with us due to their own foolishness in an airplane.

On the other hand I've yet to meet someone who later crashed due to incapacitation.
 
Would someone please tell me where I can find reference to all the incidents due to pilot incapacitation, involved others, *and* that an FAA medical would have caught/prevented?
 
I know I have read those figures, truth is that it seems to be ONLY the pilots with medicals falling over dead at the stick. With my pacemaker and defibrillator permanently installed, one could readily argue that I am therefore far safer than a pilot without them. Kinda like dual ingnition on an aircraft engine.
 
current national financial impact of 3rd class?

If they are processing 450,000 applications per year other than the paltry fee it costs I wonder what the actual costs of running all those applications through the system and if they even cover the cost of processing.

Kind of like writing a $20 ticket for not having a $10 City sticker?
I know I used to be a Mayor in a town that still does that because we couldn't get enough votes to stop issuing them as many towns are learning that by the time you factor in the officers time, court and lawyer costs we were losing $100,000 plus in a town of 7,000!

So if you extrapalate a little if they get $900,000 in application fees but have the buildings and overhead and staff and computers and all the ancillary things to process even if they had a 100% approval rating wouldn't they be losing Millions a year that could be used to offset user fees we keep hearing about or runway improvements like the soon to finally be gone Mayor Daley spent on Meigs Field?

You still need the FAA, I am not arguing that, what I am saying is redirect the focus to the categories with the biggest impact on aviation safety not the smallest and try to get at least close to a cost benefit equation can ya!

If .007 get failed why do we need the class in the first place based on the above?

Let's focus on the TSA and the ATC issues that just seem to get worse and worse instead of all this wasted effort when as we have proven in this thread that we all know many pilots (multiplied by the fact we are all talkiing about different folks) that DO pass the 3rd class and the PPL and should NOT be flying because they are a menace in a plane and probably a car too!
 
:confused: Notwithstanding instant death & incapacitation scenarios... if I have a heart attack in a car, I can pull off to the side of the road and stop within several seconds. If I have a heart attack in a plane at altitude, I'm screwed, and so are the non-pilot passengers in my airplane.
 
Is enough ever enough?

KatieB said:
:confused: Notwithstanding instant death & incapacitation scenarios... if I have a heart attack in a car, I can pull off to the side of the road and stop within several seconds. If I have a heart attack in a plane at altitude, I'm screwed, and so are the non-pilot passengers in my airplane.
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You're right, Katie. Perhaps for safety, we should all just give up flying with passengers. Ever. Just for their safety's sake. ;)

I've respected so much of what you've said on this site over the two years I've been around, but I feel like you're just way off on this issue. To me, the real point boils down to two factors:

1) do the current Class III medical requirements improve overall safety enough to justify the imposition they have on otherwise safe pilots, and

2) since we can never fully quantify risk, should we abandon all activities that just might (MIGHT!) cause us harm.​

The leading cause of death for adults in the USA is Coronary Artery Disease. Of those who will eventually die from it, the first signs of it often appear in their teens and twenties. The only way to detect those earliest signs are invasive and expensive. Tell me: how do you propose we separate those pilots who are at risk from an in-flight cardiac event from those who are not? Would you be okay if we deny you the privilege of flight on a purely genetic basis, so that if any one of your parents or grandparents had CAD then you can't fly?

I don't think you would, and the reason is obvious. The smallest risk of catastrophe should not lead us to prohibit every possible cause for that catastrophe. Only the largest risks are those we should bother spending our resources to first understand and then mitigate. But we and our ancestors have been so effective at removing those, that the civilized world is actually a fairly safe place to live. And so even though all the statistics show that to be the case, we seem to persevere at trying to remove all risk from life, even at the expensive of fundamental freedoms.

Any of us can build a cage of our own design and force people to occupy it for their own good; we only bristle when other people want to put us in the cage they built.​

I think there is more danger from justifying our doing anything we can imagine to protect ourselves than there is in the sum total of the things that are actually going to kill us. Why work so hard to live in a world that is as stifling (but safe!) as the one you describe?

With respect,

Stephen
 
If I lost my medical, I'd skip LSA and jump right into a motorglider. Motorgliders don't have as many restrictions as LSA. The Virus SW can be flown day or night and it has a cruise of 147 knots and range of nearly 800 nautical miles... plus... I can shut off the engine and work thermals all afternoon for free.

virus_sw_foto5.jpg
 
Heart attack safer in CAR?

KatieB said:
:confused: Notwithstanding instant death & incapacitation scenarios... if I have a heart attack in a car, I can pull off to the side of the road and stop within several seconds. If I have a heart attack in a plane at altitude, I'm screwed, and so are the non-pilot passengers in my airplane.
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Katie, i'm sorry, but i don't think so. I don't have stats in front of me to show this but a heart attack can happen quick and many times the driver falls over steering wheel and swerves with a 50 50 chance of going Rt to shoulder or Left into oncoming traffic. (google driving heart attack and read some articles)That oncoming traffic might be a mom in a minivan or a load of kids on the church bus. It happens quick and with not much warning.

I believe wholeheartedly that dropping 3rd class and requiring valid drivers lic. would keep a LOT of pilots going for more regular Dr. visits and go sooner when something ails them.

Driving has become very stressful and flying is most relaxing! Who on this forum does not feel relaxed and happy when they are flying but stressed in traffic going to work or coming home?

jeff
 
My father passed away when he was 38 years old of brain cancer. A little over 30 years later, my mother was engaged to a 67 year old gentleman. He had an interest in flying so I started giving him flying lessons. He was doing well and I was about ready to sign him off for solo so I sent him to the AME for a 3rd class medical.

The gentleman was a health nut so he passed easily with a clean bill of health. 4 days after his exam, he died of a massive heart attack.

That 3rd Class medical really did him a lot of good, didn't it.
 
Wow neat, I did not know that! I wonder however just where is the line between an LSA and a Motorglider? Maybe what I am actually making is an RV12 based motorglider!

David Shelton said:
If I lost my medical, I'd skip LSA and jump right into a motorglider. Motorgliders don't have as many restrictions as LSA. The Virus SW can be flown day or night and it has a cruise of 147 knots and range of nearly 800 nautical miles... plus... I can shut off the engine and work thermals all afternoon for free.

virus_sw_foto5.jpg
Click to expand...
 
DonFromTX said:
Wow neat, I did not know that! I wonder however just where is the line between an LSA and a Motorglider? Maybe what I am actually making is an RV12 based motorglider!
Click to expand...

Some folks here will know if this is true...but isn't the shuttle considered a motorglider too? :D

As for actual definitions, the Sonex site has a good page on the details (although I know there are exceptions): http://www.sonexaircraft.com/aircraft/motorgliderdefinition.html

(1) Powered fixed wing gliders may be type certificated under Section 21.17(b) if:
(i) The number of occupants does not exceed two;
(ii) Maximum weight does not exceed 850 kg (1874 pounds); and
(iii) The maximum weight to wing span squared (w/b2) does not exceed 3.0 kg/M2 (0.62 lb./ft.2)
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...although from reading around certification can be tricky sometimes it seems.

It is a route for the medically declined...you just need the glider rating + self-launch endorsement. I think my second plane will either be an RV-10 or a Xenos...just depends on which mission limitations I run into most. :)
 
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RWoodard said:
My father passed away when he was 38 years old of brain cancer. A little over 30 years later, my mother was engaged to a 67 year old gentleman. He had an interest in flying so I started giving him flying lessons. He was doing well and I was about ready to sign him off for solo so I sent him to the AME for a 3rd class medical.

The gentleman was a health nut so he passed easily with a clean bill of health. 4 days after his exam, he died of a massive heart attack.

That 3rd Class medical really did him a lot of good, didn't it.
Click to expand...

Google "Jim Fix." Same story.

Uncle of mine had the same thing happen. Army Helo pilot, avid runner, health nut. Went to the doctor for some strange chest pains, was having a quadruple by-pass a week later. You just never know...

Third class medical is a waste of time/money IMO and is a huge hinderance to the prosperity of GA.
 
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