[gap]

But the only secured debt is to him!

EVERY creditor, secured or not, has priority over equity.

Owners are last in line in bankruptcy.

 

[rocketman1988]

Sounds like

[ed. Deleted a QUOTE tag from previous reply from an account w/ less than 8 posts that was deleted for violating the posting rules. Yeah, yeah, I know….I’m Hitler. ;^). Bob, nice reply, sir! v/r,dr]


Looks like we ALL have "skin in the game", now.

What's your point about the different communities? People that have similar interests getting together; isn't that the point?

Would you "gift" that kind of money or make it a loan? Inquiring minds...

If you look back on the timeline, covid generated an incredible increase in orders, and backlogs grew. The addition of a new vendor to make parts, LC in this case, was to increase throughput and reduce the backlog. It turns out that was a bad decision but the intent was not bad.

I have had statements like "better find another job" directed at me when my company was going through bankruptcy. I disregarded that advice, stayed with the company, and it is now far stronger and more profitable than ever.

As far as management being "incompetent", well, hindsight is always 20/20. Admittedly, there were many things that should have been flags indicating necessary changes but they are just people, too. They make decisions just like the rest of us, and sometimes those decisions are wrong. That doesn't make the company bad.

As far as the dig at discretionary income or age...I'm not touching those.

The one point I agree on is the lack of communication. That is a real problem and hopefully this situation will lead to better communication and transparency going forward into the future. People WANT to know what's going on. Whether it is good or bad, information is needed.

I hope the choice you make on your kit brings you peace...

 

[1001001]

Has there been any statement from Van's about the status of outstanding backorders? I still have backordered items (including the seats) from my finishing kit. Backorders don't seem to be covered in their announcement.

 

[pjc]

AOPA is reporting kit prices to increase 32 percent

“The 51-year-old Oregon firm will immediately raise kit prices about 32 percent, and parts prices are likely to rise even more than that, company officials said.”

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2023/december/05/vans-enters-chapter-11-bankruptcy

 

[dstates]

One thing I found interesting in the announcement/court paperwork is that there was mention of a large unbalanced amount of inventory. Basically I read it as Van's has tons of parts on hand, but not in the right mix to actually put a kit together and deliver it. They also mention in the paperwork that oldest order is no longer the major factor in who gets the next parts. It will be depending on which kits they can make a profit. So it sounds like they will be prioritizing fabricating the parts needed to complete kits with what inventory they have on hand. This should be easier to figure out now that the just did a huge inventory assessment.

All that to say, if you have had a long wait for a kit, it doesn't mean you are next any more.

Below is from the Vans website...
"During that time, Van’s built up a significant and high-value parts inventory. As we manufacture the additional parts needed to balance this inventory, we will leverage it to fulfill orders for kits and parts over the next 12 to 18 months.

We will do our best to prioritize those who have waited longest, but our kit fulfillment schedule must be financially acceptable to the court, based substantially on cash flow rather than the traditional and historical method of order fulfillment that Van’s customers have experienced in the past. We will be constrained by – and will make prioritization decisions based on – the rate and timing of order renewal, availability of in-stock parts, and our need to ship kits that generate positive cash flow. Where we are able to do so, we will also consider the age of the original customer order."

 

[jimbom]

Has there been any statement from Van's about the status of outstanding backorders? I still have backordered items (including the seats) from my finishing kit. Backorders don't seem to be covered in their announcement.

Me, too. Don't they come from Oregon Aero. I can't seem to find them in the list of creditors.

 

[bk1bennett]

To answer my own questions, I pulled and read the public filings Van's Aircraft made in the Oregon Bankruptcy Court. I'm attaching these documents because they are public record, they are the words of Van's Aircraft, and I believe everyone is entitled to full transparency. After reading these I'm feeling a bit more comfortable about the situation.

Thanks for the documents!

Exhibit 2 on Doc 9 has a long, long list of people with pending sales orders that are all going to get rejected and offered at a new price. If you are one of those folks, you may want to download the file. You're a "part of legal history" now.

 

[jimbom]

I don't know if I agree. Van's has historically been (relatively) low-budget, sure.

Yes, "relatively" is the key word here. "Low-budget airplane" is an oxymoron.

 

[benbell4140]

Modify order

The document says we can “modify” orders. Does this mean I can cancel the fuselage and wing kit and put all the deposit money towards only the empennage? I’m just looking for a way out at this point.

 

[Cessnadog]

I get that long lead times and inflation got ahead of them. I understand that the kit I ordered in January is now going to cost me 32% more than I thought. Clearly inflation alone is not responsible for that price increase, but the need to cover the expense of laser cut parts replacements is also calculated in. Fine. I’m lucky that I only have the finish kit left so “only” an additional $4500 or so.

Does anyone else think it is interesting that the price increase is just enough to get the full original cost of the kit from us now?

But seriously, how do they suggest that the engine price is also now in play? The engine price has always been represented as set by Lycoming. We all remember the notice that “Lycoming is going to raise prices, lock them in now”, right?

But in the court filings Vans says that they can’t perform on those contracts or they will lose money. I have been a cheerleader for patience here, but this one is hard for me to fathom. I understand that Vans used my deposit money to fund operations… But I locked that price with Lycoming, not Vans. And I expect Vans to work with us to minimize the impact on the engines.

 

[pfitzuscg]

“The 51-year-old Oregon firm will immediately raise kit prices about 32 percent, and parts prices are likely to rise even more than that, company officials said.”

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2023/december/05/vans-enters-chapter-11-bankruptcy

Ouch. Difficult decision coming up in January. On my order that 32% price increase would be about another $9.5k.

I wonder if the option to convert QB to SB may be on the table. Given that the "quick" in QB hasn't really worked out as expected (probably looking at around 2.5 years from initial order for an -8 QB fuse), SB would offset some of the price increase and may be a whole lot quicker.

 

[bk1bennett]

Well, I've skimmed the court docs and this thread ...

It is very interesting to see the varied opinions here ...

Some are wholeheartedly supporting Van's in a sort of no-matter-what way. I understand the compassion you have for the company, but the business knowledge I have says that is an unjustified emotional reaction. Van's followed some unsound business practices to get to this point. Regardless of the integrity, commitment, and skill of the company owners and employees, they didn't run the business well by their own legal admission. Good people have limitations just like everyone else. It doesn't make them bad people, but it also doesn't mean they should get more of your hard-earned money just because they are good people.

Some of the recent customers impacted by LCP are very upset. There is a picture of a very crummy hole from a customer who has invested a lot of money. I haven't been impacted by LCP, but seeing that hole and hearing about the cash invested, I understand the angst. Van's saw those holes and sent the parts to customers. Think about that. Think about the horrible looking LCP parts, and the lack of communication people have been dealing with for two years and you have to understand some of the angst.

I want Van's to succeed, and I think, ultimately, they will emerge from Chapter 11 still operating. Going forward, they need to fix their business practices and get more efficient. The escrow for deposits is a good, necessary corrective action, and their are many more coming. Kit and part prices are going way up. A Van's aircraft is still a great deal overall, but it won't be the same deal it used to be, and that is a hard reality now.

 

[Brantel]

“The 51-year-old Oregon firm will immediately raise kit prices about 32 percent, and parts prices are likely to rise even more than that, company officials said.”

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2023/december/05/vans-enters-chapter-11-bankruptcy

What company officials? And why is AOPA the only one that has been blessed with this information?

I don’t trust that statement is valid.

Prices will go up but I doubt they will be the same across the board. I don’t believe this will be a blanket increase.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

To answer your earlier question--no, under my recommendation, the SB kit company would not bail out the QB kit company if they didn't properly account for their costs. The QB company would have to raise prices, find an investor to bail them out, or file for bankruptcy. This wouldn't be screwing the QB customer, this would be making sure that the QB customer is responsible for paying the actual value of their kit instead of pushing that burden off onto someone else. Accordingly, the SB customer's costs would increase based only on factors directly related to the SB kit business.

Isn't this just the P&L model? (Profit and Loss Center?)

 

[Cholley6]

I feel better having read the filings

Am I the only one that feels like this chapter 11 is just to legally break the contract with the previous customer orders? Just for transparency I both have a slow -10 wing kit full of LCP and a slow fuse on order. The way I read things and have experienced them is that the QB primer fiasco extended the delivery times of orders while they tried to work through it. Then the LCP fiasco did exactly the same thing, presumably to lots of QB kits that had already been pushed back once. Then given the inflationary environment we have all been living in the past few years, cost ran up to a level that if delivered at prices locked in long ago only losses were possible. Losses high enough to break the company.

Reading the room, very few would volunteer to have their locked in price raised. So this seems to leave the only option to break the locked in price, and get back to shipping kits at a new price. Everything else in the filings appears to me (not a lawyer or an accountant, but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express) to be what the court is requiring to allow them to break these contracts. Their top 20 debts to me don't look that out of whack for a business that really didn't have any debt from non outsiders, and does the amount of business they do, seems more like the amount that they would normally have in outstanding bills. I do wonder (complete speculation) if they had one or more vendors that cut them off until payment was made, and payment was impossible without the parts from said vendors to ship to customers... Causing them to ship kits with backordered parts and creating a vicious circle.

I am very hopeful and optimistic that this will allow Vans to get back to fulfilling orders and taking money. I am very ready to give them some so I can get back to progress on my build.

One last data point, I ordered some tank sealant just before the store went dark. I received a tracking number on it today, so they are back to fulfilling orders.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

Going forward, they need to fix their business practices and get more efficient.

And one of the most blatantly obvious fixes is: set up an actual Quality Assurance program. Hire some people who know what they're doing in this field, and them *listen to them*. Along the way, get some sort, ANY sort of inventory control in place so when (not if) the next parts issue comes along, you can isolate it and solve it in a matter of days or weeks, not years.

This not rocket science, just things that have been known since the beginning of manufacturing.

 

[bk1bennett]

Breaking Contracts

Am I the only one that feels like this chapter 11 is just to legally break the contract with the previous customer orders?

I think a big part of the remedy to the operations crisis is to reject existing contracts, yes. Twenty-eight pages of customer names in small print represents a lot of commitments.

Speculation on my part, but I would be willing to bet that the price increase to each customer is likely going to exceed the deposit amount they made on kits. The deposit money is gone, having been spent by Van's. I say this because the remedy is likely to stick in the craw of a lot of customers. Seems like some apologies are in order, to me.

 

[AZtailwind]

LCP issue

snip...
I want Van's to succeed, and I think, ultimately, they will emerge from Chapter 11 still operating. Going forward, they need to fix their business practices and get more efficient. The escrow for deposits is a good, necessary corrective action, and their are many more coming. Kit and part prices are going way up. A Van's aircraft is still a great deal overall, but it won't be the same deal it used to be, and that is a hard reality now.

After watching the video, As I see this, The LCP kit parts are probably the largest unknown liability problem to the Vans restructuring issue. And that's just after the primer issue and shipping costs. Wasn't there something about breaking the chain of multiple mistakes in aviation to avoid an emergency? Well, I too hope that Vans succeeds through this rough sailing. But I'm afraid some customers are not going to be happy. They shouldn't be. But it's in all our interest to see Vans succeed.

 

[newt]

Seems like some apologies are in order, to me.

Really?

You're an unsecured creditor. You carried risk. You could have insured it, but didn't.

I don't say this to be antagonistic (although it might come across as such). I say it as a bit of a reality check, because what Vans is going through right now is so much better than it could be, and so much better for you than it could be too.

If Vans had run into this financial situation in my country, the regulator would have stepped in with a criminal prosecution for "trading while insolvent" by now, and our bankruptcy laws, which are designed around protecting creditors, would have forced the company to wind-up. Customers would lose everything, builders and owners would be left in the lurch, creditors would get cents in the dollar, and the company's Directors and Executive would receive court orders banning them from running any other companies for however many years it takes for the bankruptcy to be fully discharged. It'd be an absolute blood bath. Bankruptcy is a lot less forgivable in most of the world than it is in the USA.

So instead, Vans continues to trade, still accepting orders, still shipping parts, still supporting builders, with a large kit inventory ready to ship, planning to close-out the LCP issue in a year, and announcing that deposits haven't been lost, but will be applied at 100% value to whatever the new kit prices are.

In five years time, this will be a distant memory. Maybe someone will paint an RV-8 with winged dollar bill nose art to memorialize it.

(Besides, didn't Van already apologize in the video?)

I've been sitting on tenterhooks about the future of Vans for months. When I saw the Chapter 11 announcement, I relaxed. This is a great outcome. Looking forward to Vans having a long future.

- mark

 

[airguy]

I understand that Vans used my deposit money to fund operations… But I locked that price with Lycoming, not Vans. And I expect Vans to work with us to minimize the impact on the engines.

Who was the check written to? Vans or Lycoming?

Not trying to be a smart*** here, really asking the question. I have not purchased an engine through Vans for either of my builds, so I don't know.

 

[Kyle Boatright]

Well, I too hope that Vans succeeds through this rough sailing. But I'm afraid some customers are not going to be happy. They shouldn't be. But it's in all our interest to see Vans succeed.

People should be disappointed, for sure. They didn't get what they paid for, either with LCP parts, shipping dates, or pricing on future shipments.

On the other hand, Chapter 11 with a Van financed reorg is the best of a series of bad options. Most of the other options would have left current customers in much worse shape. Even if today's customers want to walk away, there is a secondary market for their wing/tail/fuse kits. They will recover some of their investment. That market would have been non-existent if Vans wasn't able to provide follow-on kits.

 

[airguy]

People should be disappointed, for sure. They didn't get what they paid for, either with LCP parts, shipping dates, or pricing on future shipments.

On the other hand, Chapter 11 with a Van financed reorg is the best of a series of bad options. Most of the other options would have left current customers in much worse shape. Even if today's customers want to walk away, there is a secondary market for their wing/tail/fuse kits. They will recover some of their investment. That market would have been non-existent if Vans wasn't able to provide follow-on kits.

And now, if AOPA is to be believed, that secondary market just gained 32% value. I guess I'll need to increase my hull insurance, to match the new aircraft prices on the used market that we are about to see.

 

[bmellis11]

Am I the only one that feels like this chapter 11 is just to legally break the contract with the previous customer orders? ...
Reading the room, very few would volunteer to have their locked in price raised. So this seems to leave the only option to break the locked in price, and get back to shipping kits at a new price.

You are 100% correct--that is why they filed. The only way to get the customers to pay more is to force it on them. If they didn't do this and only shipped to customers that paid them more money, then the people who refused to pay more money would start suing and they would go out of business. With Chapter 11 they can force new pricing and walk away from customers that refuse to pay more. It's really the only viable option and maximizes recovery for everyone affected.

I don't like this whole thing--I have about $45k tied up in this--but I am past getting mad. I think of the prayer of serenity and will follow this process closely and be on top of the things that I can change.

 

[vsavatar]

Really?

You're an unsecured creditor. You carried risk. You could have insured it, but didn't.

I don't say this to be antagonistic (although it might come across as such). I say it as a bit of a reality check, because what Vans is going through right now is so much better than it could be, and so much better for you than it could be too.

If Vans had run into this financial situation in my country, the regulator would have stepped in with a criminal prosecution for "trading while insolvent" by now, and our bankruptcy laws, which are designed around protecting creditors, would have forced the company to wind-up. Customers would lose everything, builders and owners would be left in the lurch, creditors would get cents in the dollar, and the company's Directors and Executive would receive court orders banning them from running any other companies for however many years it takes for the bankruptcy to be fully discharged. It'd be an absolute blood bath. Bankruptcy is a lot less forgivable in most of the world than it is in the USA.

So instead, Vans continues to trade, still accepting orders, still shipping parts, still supporting builders, with a large kit inventory ready to ship, planning to close-out the LCP issue in a year, and announcing that deposits haven't been lost, but will be applied at 100% value to whatever the new kit prices are.

In five years time, this will be a distant memory. Maybe someone will paint an RV-8 with winged dollar bill nose art to memorialize it.

(Besides, didn't Van already apologize in the video?)

I've been sitting on tenterhooks about the future of Vans for months. When I saw the Chapter 11 announcement, I relaxed. This is a great outcome. Looking forward to Vans having a long future.

- mark

How could they have insured against it? Last I looked, there are no insurance plans that cover company insolvency as a loss. Additionally, you state that it's better for "you" without specifying who falls into the category of "you", but I assume you mean all builders. While this may be true for those builders who are wealthy and can absorb the price increases, it is most definitely not true for those who cannot. Those people will likely receive little to nothing back from the reorganization plan. That money will simply be gone. These are people who could not afford to continue with the build because Van's broke their contracts and decided to unilaterally raise prices and say take it or leave it.

I say, regardless of what's best for the community, wealthy builders, and/or owners of flying aircraft that for those specific people, the result of Van's getting forced into Chapter 7 bankruptcy might have been better, because then all the unsecured creditors (vendors without inventory liens included) would get paid a portion of their claims pro-rata, instead of one or two tiers (vendors) getting preference in payment and the customers ending up with the lowest priority for payment in a Chapter 11, which will likely pay them little or nothing. I don't know the judge in this case, but around here there's a bankruptcy judge that just rubber stamps plans that freeze out minority creditors while making sure the top 20 get pretty much everything. At most, those minority creditors get a pittance, and they might have gotten significantly more in a Chapter 7. Or, at the very least, the top 20 would have to share in their pain.

So, no, it's not better for all builders at all. For many builders, the result will the same or possibly even worse than if Van's had gone the Chapter 7 liquidation route.

 

[bmellis11]

Who was the check written to? Vans or Lycoming?

Not trying to be a smart*** here, really asking the question. I have not purchased an engine through Vans for either of my builds, so I don't know.

The check was written to Van's. It appears that Lycoming sells engines to Van's who resells them to customers with a markup. Lycoming will still want to be paid the same as before for the engines (plus the $600k they are owed). The markup is most certainly less than 25%, the amount of the deposit, so Van's will be out of pocket to Lycoming for some of the cost of the engine, even with the customer paying the 75% balance, unless Lycoming agrees to take a haircut. It appears they are negotiating that haircut as we speak and that's why they will get back to us on how this is going to work with regard to engines. But the pro forma budget shows $180k net cash flow out of the company "from honoring Lycoming Deposits", so it appears there is going to be some recovery of deposit here.

 

[Kyle Boatright]

And now, if AOPA is to be believed, that secondary market just gained 32% value. I guess I'll need to increase my hull insurance, to match the new aircraft prices on the used market that we are about to see.

I thought about that too. Also, the price of any unfinished kit (minus LCP issues) should have just jumped that same 32%, so if builders are looking to exit the market/hobby, there should be opportunities without needing to take a big haircut.

 

[BTG1996]

The hard part for me is trusting that Vans will make it thru this and coming in with a higher amount is not throwing good money after bad.

How much will a 32% increase in kit costs (and assuming some additional on avionics/engines) hurt demand? Enough that they don't make it and future deposits are lost?

Part pricing was always such a draw versus certified- wonder how much that will change. Trying not to let my mind run too much, but its hard not to.

If that article is true, whether to continue or not is gonna be a really tough decision- first world problems, but I really feel for everyone further along with more expensive kits. Hang in there.

 

[Cessnadog]

The check was written to Van's. It appears that Lycoming sells engines to Van's who resells them to customers with a markup. Lycoming will still want to be paid the same as before for the engines (plus the $600k they are owed). The markup is most certainly less than 25%, the amount of the deposit, so Van's will be out of pocket to Lycoming for some of the cost of the engine, even with the customer paying the 75% balance, unless Lycoming agrees to take a haircut. It appears they are negotiating that haircut as we speak and that's why they will get back to us on how this is going to work with regard to engines. But the pro forma budget shows $180k net cash flow out of the company "from honoring Lycoming Deposits", so it appears there is going to be some recovery of deposit here.

This $180k is only over the next 13 weeks. Assuming 25% deposits on $40k engines that is only 18 engines. Maybe Vans was making $5k per engine and it then becomes 36 engines. I wonder what the engine delivery rate has been running?

 

[Kyle Boatright]

The hard part for me is trusting that Vans will make it thru this and coming in with a higher amount is not throwing good money after bad.

As I understand it, all new money is going into escrow, which should protect you if the reorg doesn't work.

 

[airguy]

How much will a 32% increase in kit costs (and assuming some additional on avionics/engines) hurt demand? Enough that they don't make it and future deposits are lost?

Part pricing was always such a draw versus certified- wonder how much that will change. Trying not to let my mind run too much, but its hard not to.

Keep in mind that Vans kit orders increased 250% during just 2020 alone - losing the demand is not really a problem. Indeed, trying to spin up to the increased demand too quickly is what created the problem in the first place.

As for parts pricing - you could add a zero to all the parts and STILL be under certified price points. Not too worried about that one...

 

[Ironflight]

The News Churn….

Before people get terribly excited by the 32% number, that came from one reporter (Dave is a friend whom I respect BTW) who didn’t cite his source.

Kitplanes has been in contact with numerous sources in the know who basically say “we have no idea what the price increases might be”.

So be careful on what you let drive your anxiety.

Paul

 

[bertschb]

I made the final payment on my fuselage kit in August. It was supposed to be crated in October. Do you guys think I'll have to make another "final" payment on this kit??

 

[sc_pilot]

So everyone talking about the price increase on their order but what about the lead times. If I receive an email in the following weeks/months about my “order, deposit, and contract options”, and am asked to make a decision by Jan 15th or X date, the delivery timeline must be communicated in that info. For example I know I’m in the second later boat since I have engine and avionics on order so I won’t be the Jan 15th round.

Whether I decide to pay more money or cancel contract could be heavily enticed with a quicker delivery window. I think some people wouldn’t mind the higher cost contract if there was a guaranteed quick delivery. Otherwise there’s not much “positive” incentive other than not wanting to be in line with the creditors at the end of bankruptcy and taking a loss of some amount. I mean I’m realistic and would be willing to work with vans but drastically shortening lead times could help them “sell” the higher costs to disgruntled builders… But shortening lead times in this situation is likely impossible.

 

[Brantel]

Before people get terribly excited by the 32% number, that came from one reporter (Dave is a friend whom I respect BTW) who didn’t cite his source.

Kitplanes has been in contact with numerous sources in the know who basically say “we have no idea what the price increases might be”.

So be careful on what you let drive your anxiety.

Paul

Exactly… thanks Paul!

 

[Jayhox88]

My question/concern would relate to the "final" price. Assuming the hypothetical 32% now and then an underdetermined delivery window, will the new contract language allow for additional increases prior to actually receiving the kit(s)? I certainly understand prices could continue to climb, but I would not feel comfortable committing to an end number with no limit on my 3 remaining kits not yet received.

 

[flyrlfs]

So everyone talking about the price increase on their order but what about the lead times. If I receive an email in the following weeks/months about my “order, deposit, and contract options”, and am asked to make a decision by Jan 15th or X date, the delivery timeline must be communicated in that info. For example I know I’m in the second later boat since I have engine and avionics on order so I won’t be the Jan 15th round.

Whether I decide to pay more money or cancel contract could be heavily enticed with a quicker delivery window. I think some people wouldn’t mind the higher cost contract if there was a guaranteed quick delivery. Otherwise there’s not much “positive” incentive other than not wanting to be in line with the creditors at the end of bankruptcy and taking a loss of some amount. I mean I’m realistic and would be willing to work with vans but drastically shortening lead times could help them “sell” the higher costs to disgruntled builders… But shortening lead times in this situation is likely impossible.

True. Their plan is only a "stay-alive" plan. Not a plan on how to address the builder woes... Nothing was mentioned about that.

Another concern is that their 13-week spreadsheet shows ~30% increase in revenue starting the magical 1/15 date, but remain cash-flow negative. Their plan didn't address how this gets resolved.

We have to continue the 'wait' mode. See what comes out of the court hearing on 12/7. What they approve. They did ask for immediate approval of the plan to cancel all existing unfilled contracts.

 

[czechsix]

So everyone talking about the price increase on their order but what about the lead times. If I receive an email in the following weeks/months about my “order, deposit, and contract options”, and am asked to make a decision by Jan 15th or X date, the delivery timeline must be communicated in that info.

The way I read it, Van's isn't making any promises about lead times and they are going to prioritize shipments not by original order date but by those that generate the best cashflow most quickly. So my take is you're going to have to make a decision without any guarantees (and maybe not even an estimate) of when your kit will ship.

 

[Fltonc]

I thought about that too. Also, the price of any unfinished kit (minus LCP issues) should have just jumped that same 32%, so if builders are looking to exit the market/hobby, there should be opportunities without needing to take a big haircut.

Wishful thinking but I disagree. My tail kit and wing kit are full of horrible laser cut parts. No builder would want these parts in an airplane. So unless Vans replaces all laser cut parts at its expense or at a steep discount, my kits are worthless.

 

[airguy]

Wishful thinking but I disagree. My tail kit and wing kit are full of horrible laser cut parts. No builder would want these parts in an airplane. So unless Vans replaces all laser cut parts at its expense or at a steep discount, my kits are worthless.

I doubt that.

My RV-10 kit was riddled with LCP, I made a spreadsheet documenting it and replacing ALL the LCP at full list price was only $4000, and that was for the tail, wings, AND fuselage kits. That doesn't quite get you to "worthless", even with a 32% increase on the parts.

 

[Kyle Boatright]

Wishful thinking but I disagree. My tail kit and wing kit are full of horrible laser cut parts. No builder would want these parts in an airplane. So unless Vans replaces all laser cut parts at its expense or at a steep discount, my kits are worthless.

Go read what I wrote again. Note the reference to LCP issues. ;-)

 

[Thrasher]

"Prima donna" and "whiner" here. Frequent lurker but first post. Thank you for the wise words from many of you. I donate monthly.

I'm devasted to be looking at ending the dream. Forty years of flying for a living and 2.5 years from retirement. I have been very fortunate to fly some wonderful machines plus some Boeings. I was excited about building and flying my own toy fighter, but I fear it may be getting too expensive and too late for me.

My question for those smarter than me, and there are many:
If I sell my 8A QB kits now, will the buyer be owed the same LCP remediation (if any) that Van's owes me? I would not want to leave a fellow aviator in more desperate straits than I'm in.

Yes. I know building home-built airplanes is hard. Thanks for that.

 

[Brantel]

Those of you that think that most American owned businesses don’t use deposits for operating capital, I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.

Deposits just become a liability on the balance sheet. It is as simple as that.

 

[benbell4140]

RV10 order

I sure wish the “we are temporarily not taking orders” would have came much sooner. Or “kit prices are prices in effect the day the order is received” was true! This may or may not put people over budget but it certainly has me concerned.

 

[Cutlass]

The Chapter 11 filing Details

How does one read/see the details of the Vans Chapter 11 filing?

Is a link available?

Thanks

Thank you Greg. After I asked the question I found Ben Ellis information.

 

[airguy]

How does one read/see the details of the Vans Chapter 11 filing?

Is a link available?

Thanks

Post #12 of this thread.

 

[davidkarlsberg]

Those of you that think that most American owned businesses don’t use deposits for operating capital, I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.

Deposits just become a liability on the balance sheet. It is as simple as that.

I am interested in the ocean front property in Arizona. Can you send me more info?

 

[sc_pilot]

Post #12 of this thread.

But where is the public record link to those documents? So we can see when new documents will be posted? I doubt there will be a sticky in this Chapter 11 topic to retain all the current and future court documents. It might get to be too long of a thread to go digging around to find the future documents if a user decided to post them from their findings.

 

[bmellis11]

How does one read/see the details of the Vans Chapter 11 filing?

Is a link available?

Thanks

I am the one that posted the docs earlier last night. I got them from PACER, which is the system the federal courts use for filing court docs and retrieving information on cases. You can check it out at https://pacer.uscourts.gov/. It costs money to pull documents but it's not that expensive.

There will be hundreds, possibly thousands, of documents filed over the course of this case and this will be the best place to get them and see information on deadlines, etc.

By the way, the court entered an order today requiring Van's to provide its most recent balance sheet, statement of operations, cash-flow statement, and Federal income tax return within 7 days. Once that's available we will have a better idea of what their situation is.

 

[mturnerb]

I am the one that posted the docs earlier last night. I got them from PACER, which is the system the federal courts use for filing court docs and retrieving information on cases. You can check it out at https://pacer.uscourts.gov/. It costs money to pull documents but it's not that expensive.

There will be hundreds, possibly thousands, of documents filed over the course of this case and this will be the best place to get them and see information on deadlines, etc.

By the way, the court entered an order today requiring Van's to provide its most recent balance sheet, statement of operations, cash-flow statement, and Federal income tax return within 7 days. Once that's available we will have a better idea of what their situation is.

A logical topic for the Chapter 11 forum might be "court filings" with interpretations by people who understand the legal and financial aspects (not me for sure)....

 

[Thierry A]

Where in Arizona? I might be interested!!

Those of you that think that most American owned businesses don’t use deposits for operating capital, I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.

Deposits just become a liability on the balance sheet. It is as simple as that.