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Personal Attack

Just to be clear guys, Dave Johnson is being personally attacked by the last couple of posts. :mad:
 
Gentleman. This thread has now run its course. Any further posts that do not add value and meet the published rules will be deleted.
Best,
 
David Johnson said:
While I note your sarcasm, I won't take offense. ;)
Definetly no offense intended. I just wanted to make a point that when a person complains about someone taking away one's freedoms or liberties, that person often times fails to see that those freedoms and liberties one so wants to say are free, truly are not. Freedom most definetly takes a great deal of control to keep. That control will either come from one's own restrictions of behavior and actions through a set of rules the person imposes upon himself or it will come from rules and regulations imposed upon one by the society in which one lives. So whether we inforce the rules ourselves or have to abide by rules set forth by others we still owe our freedoms to those constraints by which we live.

Kahuna said:
Gentleman. This thread has now run its course. Any further posts that do not add value and meet the published rules will be deleted.

Point taken and agreed upon Kahuna. My last post on the subject.
 
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editing posts

When we use the VAF Forums, we are electronically entering and meeting in Doug's household(as a large group--sometimes an unruly group :eek: ). Doug's wife and kids might read these posts.

Common courtesy is requisite when visiting someone else's home. If you are in someone else's home and they ask you not to talk about something in front of their children, the reasonable thing to do is to comply with the owner's wishes.

I don't believe Doug is trying to abridge anyone's right to free speech. Doug has been quite generous and tolerant with a few who have been quite rude in his 'house'.

We do enjoy the right to free speech in the US. We also have the right to NOT visit this website. So, if the requirement of being at least marginally courteous is too much of an imposition... step off the bus.
 
Bad Boy Tom

Yukon said:
Hey NYTOM,

One of Doug's other rules is that all contributors post an electronic signature, consisting of your first and last name, state of your project, and city and state. You are one of many who hasn't responded to this "rule". What up???

Sorry John, I wasn't even aware there was such a rule. I'm surprised I could even post then without disclosing my electronic signature. I will search it out and sign in accordingly.
NYTOM
Tom Norwood
Schodack, NY
RV-6A
Wings, Have complete plane including new 0-360 in a big pile of parts.
The only thing I don't have is time.
 
The comparison in value between moderated and unmoderated lists is readily apparent if one were to subscribe to the Matronics list for any period of time. I used to belong over there for many years but don't anymore. I occasionaly review posts using the web browser option. Rarely, if ever, do i find 1/10th the value that I get from one day's worth of posts on this site. All the things that Doug (and his moderators) prevent from happening here, occur over there and are precisely the things I don't like about the Matronics list.

I did not find the pictures disturbing, but I can live with the decision to remove them given all the additional value I derive from this site. If it goes overboard, which is not likely, I can always exercise my right to unsubscribe.
 
Guys,

Doug does not remove posts without good reason and in this particular case, his reasons were only in the very best of intentions and he was not doing so to insult the poster or infringe on any "rights". Personally, I did not find the photos objectionable, but I know his reasons for removing them and I would have done the same myself were I in his position.

Doug is a nice guy and he is sensitive to the effect that items posted on his site might have on its readers and I think we should just leave it at that.

There may be times when a discussion about censorship or freedom of speech is appropriate, perhaps even with respect to this site, but this particular incident is not the right time.

Let's give Doug the benefit of the doubt on this one and move on.
 
Well, well, well, that was interesting. I supose that this thread has gotten so long that any further comment will be lost, but I'll try anyway.

I respect Doug's right to moderate as he see fit. It is his site, and he can do as he pleases, and I will probably not be upset by any edits that he choses to make (as long as they are not mine, of course). I would just like to ask one thing, and that is to provide an annotation when a moderation has occurred.

For example, "picture removed for content", or "comments removed due to forum rules violations", etc. I know that we do not have any "right" to this, but it would be nice to know when information has been deleted or modified.

BTW, Doug, I think you are doing a great job, and I encourage you to continue.

Tracy.
 
ptrotter said:
Let's give Doug the benefit of the doubt on this one and move on.
I certainly have to agree here...move one people. There's much more interesting and educational RV type stuff ready to be taken in elsewhere on Doug's site. That's right! DOUG'S SITE.
 
thallock said:
...I would just like to ask one thing, and that is to provide an annotation when a moderation has occurred.

For example, "picture removed for content", or "comments removed due to forum rules violations", etc.
For the record, immediately after the pics were removed, the post remained and there was a remark left indicating exactly what you speak of. It was something to the effect of 'pictures removed out of respect for those involved'. It wasn't until a day or so later that the entire post disappeared. No indication if it was removed by the original poster, or one of the moderators.
 
No shoes, no shirts, no service.....

Ever seen that sign on a business? How about "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"? Those rules are made by individual business owners, who I might add, can impose any rules they want so long as they don't violate the law. If this is Doug's business, then the same applies. Its not a public place, but a private place open to the public. Not unlike Doug inviting us into his personal computer.

The courts have, for a couple of centuries now, long held that the sanctity of the home is paramont among our rights. If the analogy of "this is Doug's house" is true (electronically speaking) then how would any of us feel if someone came into our house and insulted us? Or chastised us for our shop set-up? Or anything about our personal space at all? Should we do these same things to anyone else? After all we are here by invitation.

Free speech? Censorship? Intollerant moderation? This thread in itself speaks volumes about how open this forum actually is with regard to those issues as it has been allowed to be continued. If you will read the rules, and I quote, "Posts complaining about and/or criticizing moderators will be deleted." It appears to me that Doug is not only thick skinned but tolerant of opposing views and wants everyone to have a public say about issues that pertain to the group as a whole.

So why would we complain about anyone in this whole group publicly? Is it to stir debate? Not the purpose of this forum. Is it to gather other members opinion(s) on the running of this site? Its Doug's site not ours, he could pull the plug tomorrow if he wants. Is it to put pressure on, or to influence any moderators decision on what gets posted? I think the purpose was to let an opinion be know which could be accomplished by a PM to the one person who has any authority to do anything about it.

Doug is not the king, he is not the president, he does not hold the constitution in his safe. He is just a plain guy who enjoys the same hobby we do and has found an ingenious way to give us a place to gather with those of like interests while helping his family out. Who here doesn't wish they would have had the thought first or the ambition to take on such a project that takes up so much personal time.

We all have particular issues which stir up our emotions, our passions, and cause us to spring into some sort of action usually by jumping on the band wagon waving our flag and crying out about the injustice of it all. First Amendment rights rank close to the top of my list as well. I love a spirited debate amongst intelligent people and especially friends, but in the right place and time. This is not the site for that type of activity and can only lead to hard feelings and a degredation of the overall enjoyment if WE participate in it.

Come on guys, this is a non-issue. We are talking about a couple of photos posted on a website that we can get about anyplace. I think it is decent of Doug to think of the families and their feelings involved especially immediately after the incident should they find out. How would you feel?

There are PLENTY of other things to get impassioned about like the look in an abused kids eyes, or the desperation of parents who has a kid strung out on drugs that they can't find, or the look on a persons face when you tell them their spouse/son/daughter/mom/dad (you fill in the blank) has died. After 23 years as a Police Officer, what gets posted in a message board doesn't even make the needle on the meter bobble.

Lets lighten up, build airplanes and regail each other with funny stories! ;)
 
For those of you who are having a hard time with your "Freedom of Speech" rights, and what not, and those who are referring to this forum as "Doug's house", etc., I think we need to view this site as something more between the two.

As long as this website is on the internet and does not require a member logon and password in order to view, this is technically a "public" website. If this were Doug's home, then he would have a lock on the front door and you would have to knock before you came in. Ok, maybe Doug leaves his front door open, but I would not just go walking in, I've seen pictures of his gun.

However, being public does not guarantee that any yahoo can logon and say what he wants. This website is more like a newspaper, which is guaranteed "Freedom of Speech" by the constitution, but is not required to allow "Freedom of Speech" by its viewers. A newspaper is a business, which has an editor that decides who can submit info and how that info is worded. Given how restrictive many newspapers tend to be, I think we can be thankful that the editor on vansairforce.net is so easy to work with. I only wish I could send a letter to the editor of the Austin American Statesman with any kind of expectation that he would actually print it.

Cheers,
Tracy.
 
DFTT

I have to agree with Randy Pflanzer about the Matronics list vs the VAF Community. I left Matronics after one of these tempests errupted about my email signature. Nothing against Matt Dralle, he is a heck of a nice guy but the email list is another matter. This is a good forum, I was personally invited here by Doug right after the flame war on the RV-List. I've found Doug to have good judgement, to be honest, and fair. They are his forums, he made a call, that's it. Settled. We can be tempted to debate this ad nauseum but an old Internet saying from way back comes to mind:

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS! :)
 
I think Tracy is taking a reasonable course with his comments. Again, Based on other recent comments on this thread, I feel the need to emphasize this: No one is saying that Doug does not have the right to moderate these pages. He owns the business. What some of are saying is that we think there are good reasons to allow more latitude in material and discussions. That's all. I have articulated what some of those reasons are, but the rhetorical responses have been such that they keep getting buried underneath.

"It is not best that we should all think alike; it is a difference of opinion that makes horse races." -Mark Twain

Dave
 
TROLL???

svanarts said:
I have to agree with Randy Pflanzer about the Matronics list vs the VAF Community. I left Matronics after one of these tempests errupted about my email signature. Nothing against Matt Dralle, he is a heck of a nice guy but the email list is another matter. This is a good forum, I was personally invited here by Doug right after the flame war on the RV-List. I've found Doug to have good judgement, to be honest, and fair. They are his forums, he made a call, that's it. Settled. We can be tempted to debate this ad nauseum but an old Internet saying from way back comes to mind:

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS! :)
Scott,
When you were having difficulties on the Matronics list, [ed. this text snipped by dr because it was offensive]?
 
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For heaven's sake! I thought the membership here was a little more grown up than to keep bickering back and forth over something so trivial. I feel like I'm watching a couple of kids on the playground throwing rocks at each other.

Will somebody lock this thread down already?
 
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Uh oh, John.

[ed. this text removed by dr - violates the spirit of the rules]

I guess we better pick up our marbles and go home!
 
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Wow, talk about your spirited threads!

All I can ask is that those who have registered and choose to participate in the conversations respect my guidelines for use the best you can. Please believe me when I say I don't want to rule the world, I'd just like to keep the discourse in here civil, family friendly and worthy of a smile.

Best always,
Doug
 
CraigH@KRPH said:
For heaven's sake! I thought the membership here was a little more grown up than to keep bickering back and forth over something so trivial. I feel like I'm watching a couple of kids on the playground throwing rocks at each other.

Will somebody lock this thread down already?

This thread has run its course...Done Deal Craig.
 
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