Kent,

Let me interpret this for you. Lycoming built a series of 0-320 called the H
model, that suffered from camshaft and lifter spalling. After tons of warrany claims, they tried oil additives, bulletins, silly letters as this........Really Ken,
I don't see many people at my airport pickeling their airplane engine when they go on vacation. Even if they preserved the cylinders, what would it do for cam and lifters?

I am surprised to learn how rust prone Lycoming nitrided cylinders are. Better I suppose than the high oil consumption of chrome cyls.

Bottom line......do what makes you happy. See you at SNF.......2008.
 
Yukon said:
....Even if they preserved the cylinders, what would it do for cam and lifters?.....
Click to expand...
Good point. What about pulling the plugs and spinning the engine to flow oil throughout.
 
I would recommend a pre-oiler..

Low Pass said:
Good point. What about pulling the plugs and spinning the engine to flow oil throughout.
Click to expand...

I believe that when my engine rebuilder pickled my engine, that a different oil was pressurized through all the oil passages. The cylinders were fogged and then hydrating plugs were installed. The engine was then wrapped in plastic with more hydrating packages.

When the engine was to be returned to service, I drained the preserving oil, pressurized the oil system with a pre-oiler until I had normal oil pressure and then topped off the sump.

If you spin the engine after it has set for awhile (I don't know how long awhile is), the parts will not have enough oil to keep them from have excessive ware. I don't think that will make your engine blowup, but it won't last as long as one that is taken better care of.

Making a pre-oiler is easy. You only need a few pipe fittings and some PVC pipe, plus an air-supply.

Kent
 
Kent,
The problem with a pre-oiler is that the cam lobes are only oiled by "splash".
 
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Lycomings service instruction (don't remember the number) for initial engine start recommends removing a plug from each cyl and spinning the engine with the starter until you observe a rise in oil pressure on the gage. In addition I recommend to builders that they crack the pressure sense hose/line at the pressure transducer to bleed air out of the line (re tighten when it just starts to leak). You should only run the starter for about 30 seconds at a time with a cooling rest period of a minute or so. Usually pressure comes up before 60 seconds has passed

This is the same procedure recommended by Rotax, all of the major custom engine builders, etc.

BTW... on the engine start without wings installed...I feel it is a risky thing to do.
True, some builders have done it without damage but I specifically know of airplanes that have had damage to the elevators because of the start up / shut down shake that is not inertially dampend by the weight of the wings.

And the guy contemplating doing a start without a prop installed!...
No engine shop would ever do this. I think you should reconsider.
 
Use a paint pressure pot!

On my IO-360, I used a 2 gallon paint pressure pot to preoil the engine. I procured a new 6-foot-long paint fluid hose and screwed a 3/8" NPT-to--8AN fitting on the end of the hose fitting and attached that to a disconnected oil cooler hose. Put an AN cap on the center engine block fitting and placed a 1-gal paint can filled with motor oil in the bottom of the pot. Applied 50 PSI to the pressure pot and opened the fluid valve. All the oil went in within 15 seconds or so. Reconnected the oil cooler hose and started the engine. I had oil pressure within a second or two with no prior cranking. The oil cooler hose I diconnected was the one coming from the oil pump, the fitting in the center of the engine.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
Lycomings service instruction (don't remember the number) for initial engine start recommends removing a plug from each cyl and spinning the engine with the starter until you observe a rise in oil pressure on the gage. In addition I recommend to builders that they crack the pressure sense hose/line at the pressure transducer to bleed air out of the line (re tighten when it just starts to leak). You should only run the starter for about 30 seconds at a time with a cooling rest period of a minute or so. Usually pressure comes up before 60 seconds has passed

This is the same procedure recommended by Rotax, all of the major custom engine builders, etc.

BTW... on the engine start without wings installed...I feel it is a risky thing to do.
True, some builders have done it without damage but I specifically know of airplanes that have had damage to the elevators because of the start up / shut down shake that is not inertially dampend by the weight of the wings.

And the guy contemplating doing a start without a prop installed!...
No engine shop would ever do this. I think you should reconsider.
Click to expand...

Scott, the no prop guy was a subaru.
 
Personally, I think all the information to make an informed decision is here and people are just going to do what they're going to do. The only important thing here is that we act responsibly regardless of what path we choose.

I do think it's interesting, though, how one can vigorously chastize others for taking "unnescessary" and "needless" risks risks while at the same time vigorously justify their own unnescessary risk taking.

And that's all I'll say about that.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
Lycomings service instruction (don't remember the number) for initial engine start recommends removing a plug from each cyl and spinning the engine with the starter until you observe a rise in oil pressure on the gage.
Click to expand...

Just curious, as to how many install a new copper gasket/washer on each plug before re-torquing.

I'm assuming, that it would loose some of it's effectiveness, sealing wise. At least that's what I've read.

L.Adamson
 
why?

rvbuilder2002 said:
Thanks. I didn't notice.
That would make a difference. I hope no one ever considers doing this with a lycoming.
Click to expand...

Hi Scott,

Just out of curiosity, because I don't know the answer, why is it bad to run the engine without the prop? Do you need the weight (flywheel effect?) of the prop to prevent damage to the engine? Or is it a cooling issue, or some other reason(s)? What kind of damage could happen? This is a sincere question, I would like to know what the reason(s) is/are, to not operate the engine without a prop. Please excuse my ignorance on this topic, and I do NOT intend to try this when I get my engine, just curious.

Thanks,
 
Rod Machado

Per one of Rod Machado's amusing stories (if you know him you are laughing already), put a fuel can under the cowl or in the plane, just a little and with out the wings, taxi out to the runway. Ask the tower for take off. It only works if the tower is looking. Can you imagine the look on the tower jockeys face. :eek: When the ask you want to takeoff assure them, Yep! Were going to blast off into the wild blue.
 
jim said:
Hi Scott,

Just out of curiosity, because I don't know the answer, why is it bad to run the engine without the prop? Thanks,
Click to expand...

Jim,
There were many Lycoming ground power units running without props and helicopters with Lycs don't have a prop. The Hughes 269 starts without a prop and then the clutch/belts are gradually engaged and the rotor starts spinning. Both engines in these scenarios have fans though, for cooling.

The aluminum Lyc flywheel probably doesn't have enough mass or inertia to get/keep it running but it may. You'll need some sort of fan laying horizontally over the engine as I've seen some test cells do.

Ya gotta admit, starting with a prop is just so much easier.

Regards,
 
no prop

Hi Pierre,

Thanks for the reply. I am not planning on trying this, I just was not sure why you should or should not do it. It sounds like it would be more complicated without a prop. I hadn't thought of the helicopters, I think the Canadian Rotors Bell look-a-like uses a lycoming with a clutch set up similar to what you mentioned. Those look sweet!

Thanks,
 
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jim said:
Hi Scott,

Just out of curiosity, because I don't know the answer, why is it bad to run the engine without the prop? Do you need the weight (flywheel effect?) of the prop to prevent damage to the engine? Or is it a cooling issue, or some other reason(s)? What kind of damage could happen? This is a sincere question, I would like to know what the reason(s) is/are, to not operate the engine without a prop. Please excuse my ignorance on this topic, and I do NOT intend to try this when I get my engine, just curious.

Thanks,
Click to expand...

It is for all the reasons you mentioned.

There is absolutely no load (torque or inertial) load on the engine without a propeller.
An auto engine has a heavy flywheel to help it idle smoothly and more slowly than it could otherwise. This flywheel also has inertial resistance to not allow the engine to rev up too quickly even if the transmission is out of gear or in park.
A propeller is an airplane engines flywheel.
It resists the engine from accelerating too quickly by its inertial load and aerodynamic load. With out a propeller the engine can change RPM almost instantly. This is very bad for the engine. Any idea what happens if a builder accidentally hooks his throttle up backwards and he starts without a prop installed (this does happen, by the way)? The engine is toast in about 1 second. If a prop. is installed and he has at least tied the airplane down, the worst thing that happens is a bit of a fright and he shuts it down right away.

What Pierre wrote is true. Many helicopters do start with the rotors decoupled, but they still have some resistance on the engine from a big cooling fan (which also is cooling the engine as soon as it starts. You don't have this if you are starting without a prop. installed). It is also a proven installation, not a very first engine start.

Doing an engine start before the airplane is completed and nearly ready for the first flight is of no technical value (with or without a prop installed).
There are so many thing that can go wrong, it just makes sense to wait.
- Just my opinion based on 18 years of experience building RV's-
 
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Hope I'm not hijacking the thread, but what is a good preservative to spray in the cylinders? I would guess any oil would work - but what's best? Thanks for any opinions! Bill
 
Kahuna,

What did you use to tie the MLG to the fuselage instead of the wing spar? Do you have a Picture? I'm at the stage of putting my MLG on and would like to pull the wings off and complete the project. I pretty much know what I would like to do but am open to other ideas.......Thanks!!!
 
Bill Dicus said:
Hope I'm not hijacking the thread, but what is a good preservative to spray in the cylinders? I would guess any oil would work - but what's best? Thanks for any opinions! Bill
Click to expand...
LPS-2 or LPS-3 (heavier film).
 
GJHeck said:
Kahuna,

What did you use to tie the MLG to the fuselage instead of the wing spar? Do you have a Picture? I'm at the stage of putting my MLG on and would like to pull the wings off and complete the project. I pretty much know what I would like to do but am open to other ideas.......Thanks!!!
Click to expand...

In the old days, we had to laminate some wood together the right thickness and stuff it in there. Bolts through the wood held it in.

Its way too long ago to remember. Oh wait... I just found a picture. Wow this stuff is old.
lgearinside.JPG

fuelinjpump1.JPG
 
First engine start sans wings??

Hi all...
Ready for engine start, and considering start without wings installed. I have heard many consider this unwise, but have seen a lot of folks do just that.
Comments appreciated!!

Thanks...Chris
 
If there is a risk

If there is a risk like the design fuel system is not in place, etc. why do it? If the engine is preserved in any way, that will change when you run the engine.

Bob Axsom
 
Why would you want to do this. Be patient. You will get the chance to start the engine when the plane is completed. I realize that you have just installed the most expensive part on the airframe and that you would like to see it run but wait. Don't take the risk of damaging it. It will run and once you do run it it will be another year before you are ready to fly it and the engine which is now probably pickled will start getting corroded. The airframe as it is now is not made to handle the engine running. Wait!
 
Vertical fin..

...will be shaken pretty hard without the damping effect of the wings.....it's really not recommended.

Regards,
 
Peronally, I'll wait

I don't have an engine yet, but it has been ordered. I've been working on this plane for a little over two years now. What's the difference if I start it before moving to the airport and installing wings? Not enough for me to get excited about:

Pro's
-Verify fuel delivery system works
-Self satisfaction that yep, Barrett was right, it does, in fact, run.
-Verify I hooked everything up correctly. (This aspect qoing to be double-checked about ten times already anyway.)

Potential cons:
-Break something, get highly upset at myself for not waiting while simultaneously increasing the cost and build time of the project

Guaranteed cons:

-Miss the expressions on the neighbors faces
-Engine is no longer pickled and I'm still several months from flying
-Have already started off on the wrong foot breaking this engine in.
-I spent valuable time prematurely conducting a potentially harmful test that could have been better spent actually getting closer to flying.

YMMV
 
welllll

RV6_flyer said:
Watch this video before you do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6M3A4ImsjQ

After watching the video, do you still want to start your engine without wings?
Click to expand...

although i wouldnt run and A model without the wings on it, that plane would have fallen with or without the wings on it. i think the tail draggers run out ok without the wings on...i would put spacers and bolts in the center section however. John AKA yukon did this and posted it on youtube. was uneventful.
 
OK....

cytoxin said:
although i wouldnt run and A model without the wings on it, that plane would have fallen with or without the wings on it. i think the tail draggers run out ok without the wings on...i would put spacers and bolts in the center section however. John AKA yukon did this and posted it on youtube. was uneventful.
Click to expand...

So we have two examples. One no problem, one the guy had to start rebuilding. Even if we had 10 examples to no problem, is it worth the risk of damaging your project just to say that you have started your engine.

You should delay starting the engine for as long as you can. If there is a problem with the engine, it is usually easy to fix.

I didn't start my engine until after it was inspected and registered. Put all the covers on and started it the day before my first flight.

Kent
 
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