Thinking

I agree with many of the points of Mile High. We just never know what the future holds with the economy and state of world the way it is. On the flip side, you can't be a prisoner to your money or the economy.

You have obviously done a great job getting debt free. You can do it again. I have personally been living the Dave Ramsey plan for the past few years and only owe on my home. I'm working on buying that down now. I highly recommend the Dave Ramsey plan to young and old alike. I have a close friend whose life was changed by reading this book.

Now, I say go for the RV. Then aggressively work on eliminating the debt. You will have a great plane and another goal to reach. Since you've eliminated debt once, you can do it again even more efficiently. If something occurs where you need or want to sell the RV, you'll find little to no loss in the investment. RV's hold their value quite well.

You've already experienced the capabilities of the RV. They are addicting. You said you are not in a hurry so do some shopping. Find the exact RV that you want that fits your flying mission and meets your financial needs.

Also, as someone noted, live with no regrets. Time goes fast. You'll enjoy both the RV and the satisfaction of paying off its debt. Pull the trigger!!!!
 
This is a really good response!

Although I'm building because I want to, in this situation I'd buy it. I think Kirk's response is right on track. If I had the cash in the bank that I had worked for, I'd spend it on an RV. You have to decide what is important to you. My family ALWAYS comes first but the RV is next in line. It's all about choices, and the choice is yours. Hope you don't feel flamed Kirk!

KirkGrovesRV8 said:
First off I LOVE my RV......I hate to be a kill joy but.... If I were you I would do all I can to stay out of debt! I was in a similar boat as you although all of my debt was building the RV, when I paid it off it was the best feeling in the world! Now I as you only have a mortgage and my wife and I are saving and working towards paying our home off early. Everyone is different and have different priorities but the fact that you need to feel talked into it tells me you know it's not smart to go big time in debt for a toy.
I know I will probably get flamed by the "live for today" crowd, but my own reality has made it very clear to me that living within your means and not buying things you can't afford has made me much much happier.
Think of it this way if you had the purchase price sitting in the bank right now would you buy it??
All the Best
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I would go for it...

I am a cheap Dutchman and therefore hate debt, actually I hate to spend money period.
I would never borrow money to go on expensive vacations, buy cars, furniture etc etc. Instead I go camping, ride a bike and a box is perfectly fine for watching TV on. (**** I dont even have cable or dish, just the handful of local channels).

however having said that when it comes to flying it is not about money, it is about the passion, the emotion, the experience of flight. It is not a rational decision but an emotional one. If we all try to make this a rational decision then I think only 10% on this forum will actually get airborne. I have yet to meet the person that has 70k in his sweatpants pocket that he has no purpose for besides "what the heck lets go buy an airplane".

There is no way I can justify spending all this money to just fly 90miles to eat a hamburger that I can also get around the corner. So why do we all do it? because it is hella cool and worth it!!!

Why would I feel comfortable borrowing money for an airplane? because I know that now is the time to buy, airplanes are cheap (relatively), they will hold their value, especially in this economy since we are at the bottom to sum it up they will not get any cheaper, only more expensive. I think it is a (relatively) safe investment (unlike a car that drops 10% in value as soon as you start the engine).
I just finished building mine as you know, there is NO way I can build it for what I can buy it for. Buying is cheaper (in this economy) hands down.
The build experience is a mute point with your experience, thanks again for riveting that front deck skin!! The ONLY benefit I see in building is that you can tweak it to YOUR liking but if you can find a used one that you fall in love with......

You can wait a while and see how you feel after a couple of weeks/months of cooling down. I already know the answer... the longer you go without flying your own airplane the stronger the itch gets... you know how it felt like... and I can tell you from experience, it will not go away..

lastly, not that long ago more than half of my family passed away in just one year... I just found out that the remainder is in nursing homes and in and out of hospitals.. life is short brother grab it by the you know what...

do I know the person selling this particular airplane? A certain grey haired individual driving a blue truck?

lets start that formation team!
 
two of my favorite topics: Debt and Planes

Sounds like you already know you are getting a "deal". Planes hold their value very well even now if you bought it right. I hate debt and think "toys" should be bought with cash. But a plane is a "funny" toy that holds it's value and you can get a plane loan now at very good interest rate.
I never liked debt but knowingly married a good bit. We buckled down, did not vacation much, drove used cars with high mileage and got it paid off. Took 5+ years but now seems like nothing. Part of that plan was selling our/MY RV6A which had a loan and going plane less for 1 yr. Now we only have house debt and I pay cash for planes or toys. I look at them as cash in the bank. I could be saving it or flying the cash around. I always buy them where I KNOW i can sell for what i paid. You will have cost in owning but plan according.
I hate debt and want you out as much as you do. Our country is being brought down by debt and want idas. But here is why i think you might should buy:
1.) you know it is a smokin hot deal. Are you comfortable you could sell this thing for about what you paid in one month if you had to? If so, then it is as good as cash.
2.) Interest is low right now. Credit is hard to get but if you get a good loan (NO ARMS), with maybe 15 or 20 yr payments with 10 yr balloon and you PLAN to pay if off in less than 10 years, I think i'd be ok.
3.) People will argue this but you will kinda be building equity in something. A plane is not like a boat or motor home or jet ski or BMW motorcycle. They go down in value. This plane if you buy it correct and sounds like you know you are, will be worth what you paid anytime you want to sell (unless you take it to TBO or put engine in and that is a risk but calculated)
4.) Are you good with the payments. I mean can you double the min payment and still not be struggling.
5.) you can never build as cheap as you can buy it flying. I may get flamed here but some experts have told me that and I have seen it over and over.
6.)Pay it off early and add another asset to your balance sheet that can be liquid.
7.)prepare for ins., hanger cost, things that break. Keep some extra aside for this and gas money. Don't be "plane broke" you own it but can't afford to put gas in it.

Plan for the worse or "rainy day" and still live in your means. If you can put some $ down, afford the payments easy and get it paid off in 5 years then do it. Worse case, you lose job or income changes: you sell it for what you paid and you are right back where you are today with many good experiences and memories of flying it.
That is what I would do and how i'd approach it.

I rented a 172 for a month.
bought with loan a 172 for 40K. 4K down and payments and ins were about $300 / month (cheaper than my friends cars)
2 yrs later sold it close to what i paid and put equity (6K) into partnership of rv6a.
6 months later partner wanted out so i bought his half (with loan)
year later family of 3 would not fit rv6a and we wanted to get out of student loan debt quicker. Sold rv6a for what i paid. now I had a little equity of cash (15Kfrom both planes)
Paid off debt and saved cash. bought 1/2 a bonanza for cash. NO DEBT anymore for planes.
Eventually partner wanted out and I paid him for his 1/2.
Still fly bonanza as family plane and saving for new 550 engine (ouch!!)
I wanted a tailwheel for time in type so i found a deal on old citabria.
flew it for 6 months got some time in and sold it.
I love planes and aviation but don't let them control me. With the way you are worrying about this, I feel you will be fine either way you go.

I only say the above to repeat myself one more time. I hate debt and want you out, but if any loan besides a house could be ok, i'd say a plane loan IF bought right could be an ok loan. Don't buy with emotions, take some time and think about it. If you really want it and still worry, cut back on other things. Drive your car longer. Lots of pilots own planes but do not have a new Suburban. I drive an over 10 yr old truck with 266K miles every day. My wifes vehicle is Honda with 130K miles we bought used with 94K. We are proud we watch what we spend and stay out of consumer debt. You will be fine because you care enough to ask this question and read my long response.
Good luck.

by the way. There is a good aviation loan bank in the Hill Country of Texas. Security State Bank. Home office is Fredericksburg. May not work for you. They are all pilots and make pilot friendly loans but you must have your credit correct too. Money is cheap right now. Make sure you are comfortable with the worse case scenario.

I forgot the most important thing: IF you are married, make sure they are 100% on board with it. If they are not, you need to figure out a way to get them to see the benefits of flying to do something THEY want to do. After 1 year of my wife driving 7 hrs to see my folks, she said GET A PLANE. A long car trip with portable DVD player falling over and many McDonalds stops to re-adjust the DVD player will do the trick.

JH
 
I fly for a living. I Had reached a point where I no longer enjoyed going to work. People ask me if I love my job. I simply tell them, "Its a great job but a lousy industry".
Purchasing the RV6 has brought back something I once loved deeply. I get up virtually every morning I am not at work and check the weather to see if I can get some acro and pattern work in. Flying is never cheap but enjoying life is priceless!!!!!! Jimmy Buffet said it well. "I would rather die while I am living then live while I am dead".
To add a very sad side note. Yesterday my son and law passed away at the age of 32. He had so many things he wanted to do and places he wanted to go. He will never get that chance. Buy the plane. If things get to hard financially it can be sold.

George
 
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I know how you feel

Here is a story that might help your decision. I am now on my 3rd RV6 and I have financed all three. I was advised by the bank to spread my loan over as long a period as possible in order to keep the payments low. I was told that most owners only keep thier planes for a period of 2-4 years before they sell. He was absolutely correct. I sold my first RV after flying it for 8 years. It had a timed out engine and I sold it for 4K more than I paid. I upgraded to a nicer plane about a year later and flew it for two years before selling. Again, I sold it for market value which was 2K more than I originally paid. For the next two years I rented flight time before committing to another buy. I spent way more on this plane than I ever thought I would be able to afford but I know I could now sell it for at least what I paid up front. That said, I have invested quite a bit on upgrades that always seem to come along but it is part of the fun and not really a necessity. I did upgrades 'cause I wanted to. I may not recoupe that expense but I really don't care as I look at it as the cost of our main source of enjoyment.
By the way, I started flying at 50 years old and somehow I became 68 in what seems like a period of two weeks. Wouldn't change a thing.
 
Dave Taylor said:
Although I'm building because I want to, in this situation I'd buy it. I think Kirk's response is right on track. If I had the cash in the bank that I had worked for, I'd spend it on an RV. You have to decide what is important to you. My family ALWAYS comes first but the RV is next in line. It's all about choices, and the choice is yours. Hope you don't feel flamed Kirk!
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lol Not at all!! Trust me I stuggle everyday with things I "want" I know the RV pull is strong!
:D
 
Easy Decision!

Hi Neal,

Is this Brents -6? That would make the decision even easier! You know by now you CAN NOT build a -6 cheaper than you can buy one right now, you simply CAN NOT! And anyone saying otherwise is just fooling themselves and possibly their spouse! And an RV $$$ value, bought right, is better than money in the bank. US dollars are becoming more like monopoly play money every day with the recession/inflation/global warming/global cooling etc etc etc and are not worth stacking up in a savings account riht now. If you buy the RV-6 priced right, you can always sell it. Yah, debt sucks, but some purchases make sense and for you, no airplane??? Whattttttt? Interst rates are rediculously low, you are uber responsible with your money, you have a potential excellent purchase in your sights....and, trust me, one never knows how long this fun can last.

What's the decision problem here? :rolleyes:
 
Mr

This is cool. You posted your question noonish yesterday and 32 hours later you have the thoughts of sixty some people. Might as well add mine. I didn't take the time to read all the posts, sorry, but a lot of what I did read made so much sense. It IS a personal decision. Our economy is based on borrowed money, so, nothing new there. Sounds like perhaps you've been in over your head before and worked your way out - good for you! I've always had a problem borrowing money to support a hobby, but, tons of people do and there is no law against it. I do know a couple guys that borrowed money for a plane and now can't afford the higher cost of gas along with their loan payments. Another has his sitting on the outside of a FAA repair station hangar and can't move it home or to any hangar because he can't afford the payments and the repair bill. Just saying. If you decide to borrow take a look at the home equity loan. I believe there are certain tax advantages with that option.

I do want to give you big props, big cudos, and lots of attaboys in paying off your credit card debt. Nothing pisses me off more than the those that buy their ipads, iphones, gizzwhizzes on the credit cards, then declare bankruptcy and it's all of us that ultimately bails them out!!

Good luck with your decision.
 
Along with all the opinions I've gotten here, plus the advice of some trusted close friends who also own and fly RVs, and mulling things over for a couple days now, I'm now leaning seriously towards holding off on a purchase for a little while longer. Meanwhile, I'll be able to save up even more for a bigger down payment. One of the biggest things that's now swaying me to not buy this particular airplane is some things one of my good RV-owning friends told me today, and I think he's right since he knows me and is able to look at this from an experienced, outside perspective... so I'm back to waiting, and saving, and keeping my eyes open for the next airplane to come along that's within my financial grasp and is equipped the way I really want it.
 
Now that that's resolved, let's get that $50K plane listed here with pictures and see how fast it sells.
 
Interesting development. In your original post you stated:

"I've stumbled onto what is probably the ideal RV for me to own. It's an RV-6 slider, not the -7 I'd always dreamed of... but close enuff "

Now it is not equipped the way you want it. You may not want to state why now, but what about the "equipage" is now a deal breaker?
 
sounds like you are on the right decision making track

delaying gratification is the ultimate sign of maturity, financially and emotionally. it always pays off in the end

It's very easy for us to talk ourselves into something we are passionate about, CFI's or anyone who has taught knows this as rationalization, it's not always in your best interest to use this tactic

I agree with the rest now, show us this unicorn of a RV6 that you speak of
 
First off... $50K is the minimum of what I'd have to borrow as the loan principal, not the selling price of the aircraft. It's much higher than that. I have a fair amount saved up for a down payment, but would also have to dip deeply into my checking account to buy the first year's insurance... all this adding up to leaving me with an airplane, but in a very vulnerable financial position in case some kind of emergency comes along.

The owner is not yet ready to put the plane on the open market. He only offered to sell it just to me, specifically, at the moment. But I have a feeling that it will end up being listed publicly soon, and will likely sell pretty fast too. That'll be his decision to announce.

The equipment is not necessarily a humongous deal breaker, but it's definitely swaying my opinion much more strongly now than when I first contemplated the purchase. And this will probably stir up a hornet's net amongst some of you more opinionated RV'ers, but the more I think about it, it becomes more of a very valid issue to me... so here it goes:

This RV-6 is equipped with a carbureted O-320 and a fixed pitch wood prop. Over the past year I have gotten a serious taste of what it's like to fly a powerful IO-360 CS prop equipped RV-8 around Texas and also to Oshkosh and back. My friend, who I respect his experience and opinions very greatly, told me that while that particular RV-6 may be a very good airplane, economical on fuel consumption, and pretty doggone fast in cruise, but it will no-way, no-how ever be able to climb like that RV-8 especially with two persons aboard, and that in my subconscious mind that RV-8 has now become my "standard of RV performance" and that before a year's worth of ownership is up (he might just know my personality better than I know myself in this matter) that I will be having buyer's remorse for not waiting for an RV with at minimum an O-360 engine and a CS prop, and I'd be in the same boat as before... wishing for a more powerful airplane, but saddled down with a long term debt on a plane that was bought too hastily, just so I could have an RV quickly. So there you have it. I became too quickly infatuated with the first gorgeous-looking RV that came along my way (and it's paint and interior are beautiful), that I thought I might be just barely able to buy. There are some other factors too, like the plane is local... no traveling expenses for prepurchase inspection or flying it home... the owner can sign a Texas "Statement of Occasional Sale" to eliminate having to pay 8.25% sale/use tax... myself and everyone at my airport watched this plane get built, so we know the quality of workmanship on it is second to none. All that contributed to the "idealness" of this plane.

There you have it.

I agree with the rest now, show us this unicorn of a RV6 that you speak of
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I showed the panel ;-)

I don't have the owner's permission to post the outside picture.

It's red and white with black trim, and was completed in 2003, and has very low hours TTAF&E. That's all I can say about it until the owner wants to advertise it.
 
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Ok, now I understand. Had I known about the engine I would have never suggested that you buy it. So I officially retract my initial suggestion that you buy it.

My opinion is that for the 6, 7 and 8; minimum O-360 engine. I doubt that the fuel injected part is a significant factor but you may feel otherwise.

Constant speed prop does offer significant benefits over fixed pitch prop.
 
Live with your mistakes or........

One day I will be on my death bed and will reflect on my life and say ,"Wow that was **** of a ride" versus ,"I wonder what would of happen had I.....".
:rolleyes:
 
Neal@F14 said:
First off... $50K is the minimum of what I'd have to borrow as the loan principal, not the selling price of the aircraft. It's much higher than that.ionated RV'ers, but the more I think about it, it becomes more of a very valid issue to me... so here it goes:

This RV-6 is equipped with a carbureted O-320 and a fixed pitch wood prop.

Over the past year I have gotten a serious taste of what it's like to fly a powerful IO-360 CS prop equipped RV-8 around Texas and also to Oshkosh and back.
My friend, who I respect his experience and opinions very greatly, told me that while that particular RV-6 may be a very good airplane, economical on fuel consumption, and pretty doggone fast in cruise, but it will no-way, no-how ever be able to climb like that RV-8 especially with two persons aboard, and that in my subconscious mind that RV-8 has now become my "standard of RV performance" and that before a year's worth of ownership is up (he might just know my personality better than I know myself in this matter) that I will be having buyer's remorse for not waiting for an RV with at minimum an O-360 engine and a CS prop
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As Paul Harvey would have said.........now we hear "the rest of the story"......

Reading the above quote, your aircraft buy-in just jumped to $75 to $80K.

If you expect to travel a lot, then O360 and C/S. But if you want an RV to fly a lot during the evening for fun and still make occasional trips, then there is nothing wrong with a O320 and fixed pitch prop. And it will never have a problem lifting two people into the air. So you save 3 to 5 minutes in a climb to 10K. Think about all of the gas you can purchase with the extra money.............................. and far less maintenance.

Get a C/S prop only if you really need one. A light weight airplane is always more fun to fly........van.
 
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gasman said:
Get a C/S prop only if you really need one. A light weight airplane is always more fun to fly........van.
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Of course, you'll notice than the majority of Van's demo aircraft, with the exception of the 12...............have C/S props these days. Even Van has seen the light! :)

Personally, for me, it's a C/S or forget it.... :D

L.Adamson --- RV6A/ Hartzell CS
 
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