Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot View Post
You can disagree agree all you want. I'm not sure if you're talking about airliners but I've got 737/757/767 Boeing time, and sometimes I might use a little bit of a kick straight method in really strong winds, because it's uncomfortable for passenger to be in a side slip. Additionally there's ground clearance issues with the engines on the wing. Again auto brakes with anti skid and auto spoilers plants the aircraft, weight +100,000 lbs and stall speed 3x a light GA SE plane.
The physics are the same whether it's a 767 or a Cub. It comes down to technique; you do not like the "kick it straight" technique...that doesn't make it wrong.
...and I have plenty of Boeing time as well as Cubs, Champs, T6s, Stearmans, and my personal favorite, The Beech Staggerwing.
Great. You are my hero, and I have time in all those tailwheel planes and more. This an irrelevant appeal to authority.
But in a little taildragger you're in a crab and you're about to land and you just kick it straight you better put in a bunch of anti-wind aileron, or you're going for a ground Loop. The end result is a side slip albeit at the last second. Can't avoid a side slip for proper X-wind Ld'g. You don't fly a side slip all the way down final aligned with runway. You align (side slip) before flare or starting flare point. Truly flying level crabing, kicking it straight and doing nothing else (alerion) as you touch down, you're likely drifting, up-wind wing likely can be lifted and plane will try to weathervane, aka ground Loop.
See the highlighted text. That statement is absolutely true. The difference in opinion is when that state is reached. You choose to get there much earlier. The end result is the same. This method is taught so as to acclimate the student to what is necessary, and which input controls ground track and which controls runway alignment. Using the crab method you have little time to play around and instruct. With experience, a cross controlled final is seldom necessary...not wrong but not necessary, IMO.
I'm talking about moderate to strong cross winds. Once the up wind wheel touches down you keep adding more aileron, holding down wind wheel off, until you get the taxi speed and have full aileron deflection, while tracking with rudder. While you taxi you use full anti wind control inputs.
OK "Kicking it straight" is NO Aileron, in my vernacular. You have to simultaneously add aileron opposite of aileron. I have 1000's of hours CFI and 10's of thousands Part 121 with all kinds of pilots and I see the KICK it and PLOP it on, with no aileron, and it gets weird sometimes.
Yeah, I learned that about 27,000 hours ago but thanks for the reminder! Always good to review!
You are my hero...
You do you, but in general I'm going to teach my TW students some some form of uncoordinated control input, i.e., side slip. It's in all the books, tried and true recommend method, works for me the last 37 yrs. Because pilots never master this as a private pilot and rarely if ever practice in strong cross winds it's typically the weakest part of pilot's skill set. Then faced with x-wind near planes limit, never using large defelection control inputs they have LOC. Fortunately these incidents and accidents statically are mostly non-fatal. But it sure does bend planes.
Very true. As I stated earlier, The side slip final is a great training aid.
It is not a training aid it actually what you do to land in a cross wind in GA planes. People who can not side slip while they flair don't have the proper training, or skill or coordination. The kick it stright from crab out wings levelis lazy and may work with a nose wheel plane in low to moderate winds, but is a recipe for ground loop moderate or higher cross winds in a TW plane. That is my expert opinion.
To answer the OP a TW endorsement is a great benefit. It forces the pilot to learn or improve their x-wind landing skills. TW planes are less forgiving than nose wheel planes, to landing in a crab or last second kick it straight techniques. Proper x-wind skill translates to better airmanship overall regardless of plane large or small.
That I will agree with. Any additional training to add to your skill set is a benefit.
Training is always a good thing. And the discussion really comes down to technique...which usually is vastly different between experience levels.
Well thank you for agreeing with something. I think everything else you said was an appeal to authority and pedantic. What was your point? You don't seem understand the physics of TW planes despite your credentials. I have seen pilots with more experience than Moses not be able to handle cross winds well.
...and in reference to landing in a crab, that's something those airbus guys do!
(only kidding)
__________________
Bob
Aerospace Engineer '88
ot.
RV-10
N464RL
Oh you fly a nose wheel plane. That explains a lot. You can land in a crab with a nose wheel and get away with it most of the time, unless the winds are strong, and even with strong winds the plane may save pilots with poor x-wind landing skills. TW plane not so much.
Dues+ Paid 2021,...Thanks DR[/QUOTE
Dude I have a Degree in Mechanical Engineering, worked at Boeing early in my career, fly for airlines, very aware of "physics" and have thousands dual given, 10's of thousands of hours in 60 airplanes from small to large, including Cub, Stearman and T6. So appeal to authority aside, the aerodynamics and skill set are different in a RV vs B767-300ER swept wing jet that can weight over 300,000 lbs on landing at 140 kts. To pretend otherwise it pedantic. As I said and repeat, lots of lift killing spoilers, autobrakes with antiskid allows you to plant a large jet and keep it going straight on touchdown even if you land in a crab. Besides it has a nose gear. You can land in a crab but the Flight Attendants in the aft galley and PAX in the back will be PO'ed. It is not a people pleaser but the plane will take the abuse and track down the runway. Obviously 20 kt cross wind has less effect on a B767 heavy landing at 140 kts Vs. an Van's RV TAIL WHEEL bird weighing 180 times LESS at 50 kts. Do the math. So forget the jets and forget kicking it straight with no aileron on a strong cross wind in light TW planes or even nose wheel planes for that matter. There is proper technique and "KICK IT" (rudder only) is not it. If that is what you do? Get some dual with a CFI who knows how to land in a side slip, fuselage aligned with runway, no drift, and hold it through out touchdown and roll out.
Yes it is wrong to KICK it straight in a GA plane and not use cross control / side slip in a strong wind. I am not even going to entertain any discussion of KICK IT out of crab last second with no aileron in a TW plane. RV-10 do as you like. You have the training wheel in front... it is more forgiving.