K

Kitman Mike

Member
So, I don?t know if you all had this same experience, but it is taking FOREVER to get my shop set up! I didn?t have any of the tools (got the Isham kit) or the power tools (have been on a continuous shopping spree at Home Depot ? band saws, drill presses, grinders, air compressor, etc), or any workbenches, or any workspace, but I?m making progress.

I started with a more-or-less abandoned garage that was disgusting. You know when you go to the ocean and you roll over a rock and the crabs underneath scatter in all directions? The garage was like that, except with spiders. Sick! I hate friggin? spiders ? I think I saw that movie Arachnophobia at an impressionable young age. Anyway, I?m almost done getting set up. I?ve cleaned, bug-bombed, and poisoned the garage, designed and built two EA1000 style benches (covered one in carpet to avoid scratching material), assembled a whole bevy of tools, and am almost there.

One problem I?ve encountered: I can either plug my 30 gallon, 2hp, 120 volt oiled air compressor into the powerstrip that powers my bench tools, or run an extension cord from the other side of the garage. There?s no other option. In either case the compressor?s manual explicitly states that I shouldn?t use any extension cords whatsoever, but I cannot place the air compressor near the outlet. I tried plugging it into the powerstrip that powers my tools, and it killed all the lights in the garage and killed my CD player. Doh! Before I run out and buy a heavy-duty 35-50? extension cord, I thought I would check in with all of you: do you guys use extension cords for your air compressors? Does it kill the lights, etc?

Thanks for the input!

MB
 
Dedicated circuit.

You've stated that you only have 2 options and neither of them works. That's a conclusion.
You really need to run a dedicated circuit for your compressor. A 2 hp motor would need in the neighborhood of 30+ amps @ 120 volts. Regardless, you are really pushing any 120 volt circuit if it is truly 2 hp motor.
 
Time for an electrician

I'd start by checking the circuit layout, regardless of whether you're using an extension. If the "far side" outlet is on the same cirucuit as the "power strip" outlet, or any other shared circuit, the extension won't help.

In my experience a compressor that size will pop the breaker unless it's on a 15 to 20 Amp circuit by itself, especially when the motor starts and when it is working hard near the end of the pumping cycle. I would think any extension cords would only make that situation worse. When I had my current house built they put in a single outlet on a dedicated 20 Amp circuit. I have only the compressor on that circuit and it works fine.
 
Sounds like it's time to play electrician. I had to install a 40-amp 220V outlet for my air compressor, and two outlets at my workbench for 20-amp 120V service. The one below the bench is used for my beer fridge and radio, and I have a power strip plugged into the upper one for tool power. You can never have too much power access...
 
Ahhh ****, I think it's worse than I thought. When I plugged the compressor into the powerstrip, it killed the lights, but I just realized that the lights aren't even running from the outlet that the powerstrip (and hence the compressor) was on. The lights come from the other outlet. This suggests to me that the whole garage is on the same circuit. Argh! That's going to cause major problems because I don't see any other way to get power (it's a stand-alone garage about 100 feet away from any other houses/power). What's the other solution? Return it for a smaller compressor (assuming I can even do that)?
 
Check your wiring...

Unless the outlet on the other side of the garage is on a different circuit than the outlet the power strip is in, plugging the compressor in to it is just going to blow that same breaker if you have the lights, CD, etc turned on.

If the outlets are on different circuits, I would have no problem using an extension cord of appropriate size and rating. The safety issue with running large-draw appliances (compressor motors) on an extension cord is the potential for overheating the cord. Permanent wiring is solid strand wire that is not normally subject to vibration or abuse. Extension cords routinely get caught in doors, stepped on, ran over by bicycles, etc... This can break the multi-strand wire leaving fewer strands to handle the power, increasing resistance which results in heat which ends up causing a fire.:(

With a reasonable amount of care, it will be perfectly safe to use an extension cord rated for 20 amps, assuming the circuit it is plugged into is rated for that kind of draw.

Roger
 
Play electrician? Grrr... I don't know how to do that and I'm getting tired of running into these dumb roadblocks.. I haven't even started the kit yet!

It's not a bad idea, but I'm likely to kill myself or burn down the garage and in either case, this is starting to get really frustrating.
 
Find a "handyman" electrician..

to check it out. Ask around the airport or somewhere like that and you will find someone willing to take a quick look and see what your options are. Don't get too would up about it, there are always headaches! I got to spend this spring cleaning up and repairing my shop after a windstorm blew the big door in and blew out a side wall. Ruined tools, lost all sorts of stuff, but the RV was sitting in the perfect spot to avoid damage. Just scared the **** out of me!

Your "starting" pains will seem very minor once you get going!

Roger
 
still getting started

How about this, if you can't raise the drawbridge, lower the river. Set your compressor where it needs to be, by the outlet, and plumb the air to where it's needed. PVC shecdule 40 works great. Compressor noise in one cornor and air in another. Dan
 
I am going to preface this with a caveat; I am not an electrician, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!
Do you have a service panel at the garage? If so, you probably have 220 at the panel. You could switch to a 220V motor on your compressor, which would draw less amps.
I had to switch to a 220v motor for my hangar door, due to lack of foresight of my airport administrators. I only have 20A available, but am still able to run my door, compressor, lights, etc. Albeit the door and compressor cannot run in concert!
There is a guy in the hangar across from me that is building a -9. He had to do some tricky wiring to get enough electrons flowing to work his compressor, but he has had no problems. If I see him today, I will query him on what he did.
Good luck
 
Yeah, I can't do that because a car needs to park where that outlet is... its a really tight spot. I get half of the garage, period.

Thanks for the thought. I'm currently looking for handymen to charge me an arm and a leg for the upgrade...
 
Kitman Mike said:
(...sigh...) :mad:
Click to expand...

Right there with ya... Had the kit before tools, had college before tools, then had tools, then more college, then back home, but not an adequate workshop! Started building a workshop, then had harvest on the farm, then more work.. If it rained, me and my dad worked on the workshop, and even that didn't happen much.

Well, I'm almost done with the workshop! We had to build mine in a old barn, similar to your spider-infested garage. We had to tear down a wall, clean out, build more walls, doors, wire in new wiring, etc. The farther you get into it the more roadblocks you find. Now I'm at the same stage as you with the compressor issue, but we mostly have it figured out.

Keep at it! You'll get started sooner or later if you stay determined to. I'm just waiting on my practice kit, and then time to build on! :cool:
 
IwannaRV - I can totally relate. I haven't had as many long-term obstacles (umm, like harvest!!) but I feel like I'm wasting time and hemorraging money just to get my shop set up. What a bore!! In my opinion, the most frustrating part of any project is realizing over and over again that you need to go to Home Depot (or wherever) to buy that stupid screw, extension cord, or - in this case - handyman! I've heard that the kits generally go pretty smoothly, so I can't waitto get started!

Jetjok - Are you sure you didn't stay at a holiday inn last night? I'll look into switching voltages and I've seen those motors that can run on various volts, but I don't think my compressor is one of them, unfortunately.
 
My $.02: Hire an electrician. Not only do you want a circuit for your compressor but you will want more outlets than you have. You won't want to be running stuff off of a power strip for very long.

You have some time now; you can do a fair bit of building before you have the perfect shop. I'm almost ready to fly and I still don't have all the tools I want.;) When I started out, I had a compressor and a drill; no other power tools. I tapered my vertical stab spar doublers with a hacksaw and a bas7ard file (but I found a friend with a bandsaw to do the doublers for the horizontal stab). I bought a rotary saw so I could build my jigs. Before I got to paint, I had a bench grinder so I could use the scotchbrite wheel. I was halfway through the tail before I got a drill press. It is possible to borrow quite a lot from others. I'm still looking for a bandsaw, chopsaw, pneumatic squeezer, etc. but it hasn't stopped me from building.

However, I currently have four industrial power cords running in my shop. They are all outdoor rated 100' cords. Two have three outlets; the other two are single. The singles power my compressor and my battery charger (formerly a 12VDC power supply). The multi-outlet cords each have a dedicated shop light (I don't care how well your shop is lit, you'll need portable lighting) and provide near-to-the-project power for your drills/dremel/soldering iron/whatever. Then you'll still need power for your bench and floor tools. A power strip is adequate if you're the only one working, but sometimes you may want to run more than one tool at a time. Be sure the circuit and power strip can handle it.

An electrician can look at your shop and help you plan how to wire it for safe and convenient work conditions. It'll cost, but probably not as much as some of the other hidden costs of building an airplane. Oh, and that 100' cord on the compressor? It's a large conductor to reduce the resistance and lower the voltage drop but that protection is only required when the compressor starts; that's when the torque is highest. Once it's running, the motor needs less current, the overhead lights get bright again, and there's no danger of overheating the extension cord. That said, if my shop were my own instead of a rented hangar, I'd install a fixed compressor and air distribution manifold. Even then, though, the compressor would still have it's own circuit.
 
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Mike, I really think you're going to have to run a new service to the garage to have any success here. That means a service box, meter, etc.. That way you can have 220 service for the compressor, maybe an A/C and plenty left for 110 outlets and lights. And, you will never have enough lighting! The line from the house 100 feet away is probably way to small for anything but a garage light, maybe one outlet, and possibly a garage door opener. And, it probably comes off a porch light or some-such breaker. What size breaker is on that line? If you are stuck with half of a two-car garage, and have to put up a barrier to protect the car from your building dust, you may just want to think of other arrangements. What is the floor area or dimensions available to you?
 
Yeah, I'm worried that you're right about needing to run a whole new panel to the garage.

I'm right now trying to get an electrician to come look at it and give me an estimate (crazy note: I found a website called servicemagic.com and submitted a request for handyman/electricians in my area, and within literally 10 minutes three companies had called offering their services).

Regarding the size of the workshop, I have an agreement with my roommate that I'll take the other side of the garage when either A) I get to the wings and fuse or B) they move out. In the meantime, I'm stuck. Its going to be tight, but it's going to work out, and it's all I've got so it has to work out.

Still, though... my frustration level is high!
 
Hey by the way, if the lights dim and the system is obviously taxed when the compressor comes on, is that dangerous or just undesirable?
 
It's Dangerous.

Kitman Mike said:
Hey by the way, if the lights dim and the system is obviously taxed when the compressor comes on, is that dangerous or just undesirable?
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It is dangerous to overload the system. You are drawing more current than the circuits are designed for. This is a definite no-no!
 
Kitman Mike said:
Hey by the way, if the lights dim and the system is obviously taxed when the compressor comes on, is that dangerous or just undesirable?
Click to expand...

Both! You will burn-out the compressor's motor, and the obvious dangers of overtaxed electrical wiring can't be dismissed.
 
Kitman Mike said:
Hey by the way, if the lights dim and the system is obviously taxed when the compressor comes on, is that dangerous or just undesirable?
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Look at it this way - how would you feel if the compressor kicks in, trips the breaker and the lights go out, just as you are making a cut with a die grinder spinning at 20000 RPM? I'd definitely put the lights on a separate circuit for that reason alone. The compressor and the other power tools could share a circuit as long as you don't use both at the same time. That's not much of a hardship.

Here is a tip for easy power management throughout the shop: get a retractable cord reel. This also allows you to put your "bench" tools (drill press, bench grinder, etc) on a rolling stand, so you can move them out of the way when not needed.

As for spending too much time on the shop - I feel your pain. I had to move in the middle of empennage construction, so I got to redo the shop from scratch. I've spent hours just standing there wondering where to put the compressor or how to hang the lights to avoid the garage door, etc, etc. It's overhead, but if you take the time to create a comfortable (and safe!) working environment, you'll enjoy your time in the shop a lot more later.
 
Kitman Mike said:
Thanks. Got a quote this afternoon for $750 to re-wire from the panel. @#$$
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Some options to consider:
- Get another quote. Lots of self-employed electricians advertize on craigslist.
- You could do it yourself if you get educated. Go to Home Depot (there we go again :)) and browse through their "Wiring 1-2-3" book. If you can build an RV, you can do your own wiring, but it'll take more time than hiring somebody else to do it.

Wishes,
Boris
 
BE CAREFUL!

borislav said:
- You could do it yourself if you get educated. Go to Home Depot (there we go again :)) and browse through their "Wiring 1-2-3" book. If you can build an RV, you can do your own wiring, but it'll take more time than hiring somebody else to do it.
Wishes,
Boris
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While I agree that AC wiring is easy; like flying, it is very unforgiving.
 
Extension cords-Roll your own

You might consider making your own extension cords for certain applications around the shop. I don't understand the guy who uses 100' cords inside his shop, unless his shop is that big!
You can just buy lengths of 12/3 cable from an electrical supply or maybe Home Depot, etc., also buy a box and outlet, strain reliefs and a plug like these:


You just don't want to make these too long and then try to power hi-draw stuff from them. Make these up as needed for the length required. They'll be better than any you can buy ready made, and maybe cheaper, too. Here is a link to some useful info on cords:
http://www.northern.edu/wild/LiteDes/chap13.htm
 
Thanks Ron. The high current roll-yer-own extension cord is just what I've been needing. Definitely a "why didn't i think of that" moment.
 
If you're getting wiring done, an approach to consider is putting the compressor under an awning or in a box on the outside wall of the garage. Saves space and noise inside the shop - it soundsl like space is going to be at a premium in your garage. Get the sparky to wire an external power point where you want it, and run the air hose through the wall. I plumbed a bit of brass pipe through the wall with air fittings on either end.
 
CaptainRon, I use the 100' cords because it's a hangar and has exactly three outlet pairs wired in. Shorter cords would probably work for the worklights, since I think of those as 'hangar left' and 'hangar right'. But the other two travel around a lot and not always in a straight line. The other reason is I already have a lot of 100' cords; band venues in this area can be interesting.

Being in a hangar is also why I have to live with a circuit that is just adequate for my compressor. For some reason, when they planned these things they never thought that anyone would actually want to work on their aircraft. There is talk of some changes but it's a slow process.
 
Well, I've got something figured out but we'll see what happens. I've got the air compressor on it's own outlet and although I think all the outlets are on the same circuit, it's not killing the breaker or the lights. The lights do dim a little, but I talked with a number of electricians today (getting quotes - oh yeah, by the way, the other quotes were between $1,000 and $1,200), and they all said that although it's definitely not ideal, it's not dangerous. If it loads up too bad, it'll trip the breaker. We'll see... I'll take my chances on that die grinder.

So now I have a new problem (Gee! What a shocker!). Now that I've got the air compressor working (sort of), I can tell that there are leaks in my air hose where I've spliced the line... I've run a short line to an air filter, a longer line to a t-splitter, and then two lines out to the tools themselves. This has all been taken from one long section of air hose so you can see that only two of those eight ends (4 sections of tubing = 8 ends) were original. The rest I've fabricated. I was instructed to jam a male screw end into the air hose, and tighten down a metal collet around the hose (tightening around the embedded section of the screw end). Some of these fabricated connections leak just a teeny little bit, and some leak pretty significantly. Is this normal? What's the story?

Thanks for the help guys... My frustration level is down to significant annoyance, but with your help we'll get through this thing!
 
There shouldn't be any leaks. They are costly and need to be rectified. Is the hose old? Sometimes the inner hose lining develops cracks when trying to install new fittings. If it's not old, you might want to try redoing them. Make sure you use a soapy solution as a lubricant when installing fittings into/onto the hose. On the threaded fittings like where a quick disconnect goes, I have had trouble with Teflon taped joints leaking, and have used RTV (silicon seal) instead on the threads. Just let it cure overnight before pressurizing the joint. Check your work with a soapy solution and redo any leaking joints. Also, make sure all the compressor's fittings are leak free.
 
Hmm... The hose is brand new. I feel like there should be some sort of silicon sealant used in the creation of these new fittings - it just kind of makes sense. This RTV, do you think I can just redo the fittings and slap some sealant on each piece to solve the problem? I've gone over each connection and on the surface, the look clean, tight, and supposedly leak free. I'm thinking maybe I just pull them apart, throw some silicon on there, put them back together and be done with it?

I didn't use a "soapy solution" when I put them together. Never heard of this. Is it possible that this caused the problem?
 
Kitman Mike said:
Hmm... The hose is brand new. I feel like there should be some sort of silicon sealant used in the creation of these new fittings - it just kind of makes sense. This RTV, do you think I can just redo the fittings and slap some sealant on each piece to solve the problem? I've gone over each connection and on the surface, the look clean, tight, and supposedly leak free. I'm thinking maybe I just pull them apart, throw some silicon on there, put them back together and be done with it?

I didn't use a "soapy solution" when I put them together. Never heard of this. Is it possible that this caused the problem?
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Not being there, I don't know where the assemblies are leaking. I'm assuming you can hear them leaking, which means big-time leaks. The fittings at the ends of most air hoses have male pipe-thread fittings where they attach to tools, etc.. It's on these threads where I use RTV, as I've had problems when using tape sealant. YMMV.
When you are threading fittings INTO the inside of the air hose is where you want to lubricate the rubber with something to ease the process, and not erode the rubber. I use a soapy solution or silicone spray to do this.
By "soapy solution", I mean something like two parts water mixed with one part Ivory Liquid, or other brand dish detergent, or bubble bath!
After assembling your hose set-up, and with air pressure in the line, brush some of this liquid over the fittings and watch for bubbles. Also, make sure any quick-disconnect fittings aren't leaking when something like a tool is plugged into the fitting.
 
Hmm.. thanks for the description. That helps me understand what you're getting after. Yeah - I think I have big time leaks. It sounds like you use the RTV on metal-to-metal connections, which I will do. what would you use on a part that makes a new end, where the connection is air-hose to metal, usually secured with a collet?
 
szicree said:
Thanks Ron. The high current roll-yer-own extension cord is just what I've been needing. Definitely a "why didn't i think of that" moment.
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Thanks Steve. If you don't mind the extension being a bit rigid, like having it along the walls, you can just use something like 12/2 Romex, the same thing that you would wire a 20 amp circuit with. When buying outlets, pay for the good ones at around 5 bucks. Don't buy the 97 cent jobs!

BTW, How's this for cool? Outlets built into workbench legs!


And yes, they're installed into metal boxes.
 
Yeah, that "barbed fitting" is exactly what I'm using. Didn't know what to call it. That's the exact system I'm using - jam the barbed end in, tighten down the collet as tight as it'll go. No luck so far - almost every one of those connections leaks...
 
Kitman Mike said:
Yeah, that "barbed fitting" is exactly what I'm using. Didn't know what to call it. That's the exact system I'm using - jam the barbed end in, tighten down the collet as tight as it'll go. No luck so far - almost every one of those connections leaks...
Click to expand...

Got a pic? Not sure what you mean by "collet". Most air hose barbed fittings simply have a hose clamp to snug down over the barbed area.
 
Again BE Careful.

captainron said:
Thanks Steve. If you don't mind the extension being a bit rigid, like having it along the walls, you can just use something like 12/2 Romex, the same thing that you would wire a 20 amp circuit with. When buying outlets, pay for the good ones at around 5 bucks. Don't buy the 97 cent jobs!
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Don't use Romex for extension cords! It is solid wire and not designed for being moved around. I've not seen a code anywhere that allows Romex to be "exposed" lower than 7' above the floor.
 
Kitman Mike said:
Yeah, that "barbed fitting" is exactly what I'm using. Didn't know what to call it. That's the exact system I'm using - jam the barbed end in, tighten down the collet as tight as it'll go. No luck so far - almost every one of those connections leaks...
Click to expand...
Hmm, not sure then. What kind of hose?
 
AIR HOSE FITTINGS

Kitman Mike said:
Yeah, that "barbed fitting" is exactly what I'm using. Didn't know what to call it. That's the exact system I'm using - jam the barbed end in, tighten down the collet as tight as it'll go. No luck so far - almost every one of those connections leaks...
Click to expand...

THE BARBED END MUST be the correct size fot the I.D. of the hose. Use water or spit only on the barbed end and push it into the hose. It will be a tight fit. Then snug up the hose clamp. On the threaded end, use pipe thread compound. Use your finger and just fill the threads. Don't have any in the first two threads.
hosefittingoh1.jpg

Check fittings with a spray bottle 3/4 full of water and about 5 drops of DISH SOAP. Do not use windex. Or any thing that has amonia in it. It is bad on brass fittings.
 
Kitman Mike said:
Yeah, that "barbed fitting" is exactly what I'm using. Didn't know what to call it. That's the exact system I'm using - jam the barbed end in, tighten down the collet as tight as it'll go. No luck so far - almost every one of those connections leaks...
Click to expand...

You've probably got the wrong size barbed hose ends - I'll bet you've got 1/4" hose ends and 3/8" hose. That will result in leaks just like you describe nearly every time. Been there, done that.
 
while we're on the subject

While we're on the subject of hose fittings.
If you use the quick connects for attaching your tools, buy the metal ones instead of brass. They should last longer and are cheaper.

Most of you may already know this, but brass is more for a high moisture area, I'm told.

My .02 and it was free.

Todd
 
Hmm... I'll double check the size of the hose fittings. That's my best guess so far. However, they were pretty stinking tough to get into the hose so I'd be surprised if they were the wrong size (another 1/8" and they might not go in at all).

I'll try some sealant on the metal-to-metal fittings, but to confirm, no one is using any sealant on the air-hose-to-metal fittings?

This whole thing is weird. For as much sweat as I put into getting those fittings tight, I'm surprised they're causing me problems. By the way, I use the word collet to refer to that metal loop 'n screw dealy on the left in the picture posted by gasman. If I have more problems tonight I'll post some pictures... Thanks again for the help.
 
The "metal loop n' screw dealy" is called a hose clamp. Doesn't have to be too tight, just squeeze into the hose a little.
 
Kitman Mike said:
This whole thing is weird. For as much sweat as I put into getting those fittings tight, I'm surprised they're causing me problems. Thanks again for the help.
Click to expand...
If you are tightening the pipe thread fittings too much, you can crack or split them. Use sealant and tighten moderately.
 
man, I've got those things wrenched down as tight as they'll go and still leaks. Maybe it really is the wrong size fitting. Wouldn't that be embarassing?

Still looking for confirmation - no sealant on air-hose-to-metal fittings?
 
Put a solution on them and figure out where they're leaking. I've seen fittings that are split or cracked, and the more you tighten them, the worse they'll leak!
 
Make sure you've got the correct size hose barbs for the hose - the size of the hose should be printed on the hose itself, either 1/4" or 3/8", and the hose barbs need to match. An easy way to get tight barbs into the hose is to heat a coffee cup of water to boiling, stir the hot water with the end of the hose for about 30 seconds to heat the hose (softens it quite a bit), then cram the hose barb in it and let the hose cool before tightening the hose clamp. You'll be amazed how much easier that method is.
 
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