Wim,

Reading your posts in this thread I think you've made the best choice for yourself going with the RV-9 or 9A. You've expressed several concerns that you and your RV friends over there have about the RV-12. Not particularly valid concerns IMHO, but they're your concerns none the less and will be nagging at you if you build the RV-12. Besides having to listen to your friends continuing to run down the 12 certainly won't help you maintain motivation. :( The extra year or so to build the RV-9 doesn't seem to be a concern and having other RV friends over there should provide the extra help you'll need at times.

Here's another thought. You've been wrestling with this decision for months now. I'm not sure what shipping costs are, but the empennage kit for the RV-9 costs $1750. I say buy it and get to building! What's the worst that can happen? You change your mind. Then sell it and go with something else. In the grand scheme of things any loss is a small price to pay for the education you'll get.

Good luck on your build. I hope the process shows up here or in a bulld blog somewhere. :)

Regards, Jim
 
Jim T said:
Wim,

Reading your posts in this thread I think you've made the best choice for yourself going with the RV-9 or 9A. You've expressed several concerns that you and your RV friends over there have about the RV-12. Not particularly valid concerns IMHO, but they're your concerns none the less and will be nagging at you if you build the RV-12. Besides having to listen to your friends continuing to run down the 12 certainly won't help you maintain motivation. :( The extra year or so to build the RV-9 doesn't seem to be a concern and having other RV friends over there should provide the extra help you'll need at times.

Here's another thought. You've been wrestling with this decision for months now. I'm not sure what shipping costs are, but the empennage kit for the RV-9 costs $1750. I say buy it and get to building! What's the worst that can happen? You change your mind. Then sell it and go with something else. In the grand scheme of things any loss is a small price to pay for the education you'll get.

Good luck on your build. I hope the process shows up here or in a bulld blog somewhere. :)

Regards, Jim
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Feel free to point out which concerns are invalid according to you. I am really looking for these comments. Especially if you own an RV-12. Nobody is against the RV-12, nor against Rotax. But I think it is normal for them to advise to go for things they know. It is up to me to follow them in this or not.

I do take note of your suggestion to order the empennage, but it is not that easy over here. I first need to have approval from the local aviation authority before I can start. And the market for partially completed kits is not as big as in the US. We also lose a few rights if you buy a experimental kit from someone else. Local regulations.
 
WVM said:
If you strictly stay to the plans without modifications, it would probably be a lot faster to build an RV12. But this is what VANS is also saying about the RV9. What costs time is all the customizations, fancy avionics, extra's and finish.
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It is true about both, but, all things being equal (level of skill of builder, amount of modifications, etc) the RV-9 will require about twice the build time compared to the RV-12.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
It is true about both, but, all things being equal (level of skill of builder, amount of modifications, etc) the RV-9 will require about twice the build time compared to the RV-12.
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Along these same lines I'd be curious as to how much "helper time" would be required to build the RV-9 compared to the RV-12. I'm just finishing up the wings on my RV-12 build and so far my "helper time" has consisted of my neighbor helping me turn the wings over twice and helping me lift the tailcone up to the loft of my hanger for storage. Everything else was done by myself.

"Helper time" may or may not be an issue for a builder, but I feel it's something that definitely needs to be taken into account, along with the total build time.

Jim
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
It is true about both, but, all things being equal (level of skill of builder, amount of modifications, etc) the RV-9 will require about twice the build time compared to the RV-12.
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On what exactly is that extra time spent?

If I am honest the RV12 is probably the better plane for me: short flights in the weekend, low level (generally between 1200 and 2500 ft), Rotax designed auto fuel. Major disadvantages according to me: pop rivets & fragile (looking) nose wheel.

The things that make me consider the 9 are the type of rivets used, engine choose that has the power when it is needed, more knowledge on Lycomings engines in my neighborhood, and a tail dragger option. Major disadvantages: twice the building time of the RV12 and the engine is per default on AVGAS.
 
WVM said:
Major disadvantages according to me: pop rivets...

The things that make me consider the 9 are the type of rivets used
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There are too many that I know that have strong doubts about using pop rivets for airplanes
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Why are blind rivets a disadvantage? The RV-12 was designed to use them and they perform adequately for the task. We're not talking about the cheap-**** hardware store blind rivets you can buy for holding gutters together; these are aerospace-quality fasteners. Many (e.g. Cherry "N" series) are often stronger than the equivalent-sized AD solid rivet.

There are hundreds (if not thousands) of flying homebuilts out there held together by blind rivets; the rivets aren't failing. Saying "I don't want to use blind rivets in an airplane specifically designed for them because 'they say' they aren't strong enough" is like discounting composite structure because you equated composites with your kids' dollar-store plastic toys, or a wood airplane because you equated it to the cheap chipboard and OSB you can buy at Home Depot.
 
When your entire aviation experience over many years has been solid rivets and Cont/Lyc, and after listening to a lot of concerns on various forums mostly from those with no Rotax/pulled rivet experience, it can be pretty easy take a similar position.

I know I was prepared to not like the 912 and was surprised at how quickly I adapted.

Accepting pulled rivets took a little longer but living in a community of RV builders where about a dozen -12's have been built cured me of that.

Having an open mind and experiencing the 912 and pulled rivets has made a lot of converts.
 
When your entire aviation experience over many years has been solid rivets and Cont/Lyc, and after listening to a lot of concerns on various forums mostly from those with no Rotax/pulled rivet experience, it can be pretty easy take a similar position.

I know I was prepared to not like the 912 and was surprised at how quickly I adapted.

Accepting pulled rivets took a little longer but living in a community of RV builders where about a dozen -12's have been built cured me of that.

Having an open mind and experiencing the 912 and pulled rivets has made a lot of converts.
 
WVM said:
Feel free to point out which concerns are invalid according to you. I am really looking for these comments. Especially if you own an RV-12. Nobody is against the RV-12, nor against Rotax. But I think it is normal for them to advise to go for things they know. It is up to me to follow them in this or not.

I do take note of your suggestion to order the empennage, but it is not that easy over here. I first need to have approval from the local aviation authority before I can start. And the market for partially completed kits is not as big as in the US. We also lose a few rights if you buy a experimental kit from someone else. Local regulations.
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I can see the problem with disposing of the empennage if you decide to go with a different model. I guess we're lucky over here in that respect. Also, only living 37 driving miles from Van's factory and able to pick the kits up myself tends to skew my thinking a bit as well.

As to your question about which of your concerns that IMHO I think are invalid, I think that was a poor choice of words on my part. They are your concerns and are certainly valid for you. However, some of them aren't concerns for me. That more accurately expresses what I was trying to say.

These include:
Pop rivet strength
Pop rivet asthetics
Rotax power
Rotax reliability
Fragile looking nosewheel

I don't envy you the decision you're trying to make. For me it was an easy decision considering what I wanted in an airplane and how much time I wanted to spend building. I wish all my decisions would be that easy. :confused:
 
Old Dogs and New Tricks

I showed my two retired airline mechanic friends the RV-12 when it first showed up and they laughed at the rivets and Rotax. They would now build and own one if they had the $resource$. Time and experience have a way of changing minds.
 
Hello

I am also from Europe and I have the same problem RV 12 vs. RV 9.
I choosed RV 9 because there are no such plane on the market. There are lot of types with Rotax and 2 places. In my opinion RV 12 is more or less similar to Tecnam P2002 or Eurostar.
RV 9 is more Experimental, what I like.
Gregory
 
The -12 can be built totally solo with the following minor exceptions, none of which is more than a few minutes needed for the additional person:
Taking the canopy on and off
Hanging the engine
Fitting the lower cowl the first few times
Taking wings on and off for a flaperon arm drilling (and final assembly)
Holding the HS in place while you slip in the washers and bolts
Mounting the gear
Bending the longerons. For help on this, search for the word THWACK

Skinning the wings goes VERY fast with two people but one can do it. With two, you both cleco and load the initial rivets, then one person pulls them while the other goes behind him/her and removes clecos and loads more rivets.
 
And even that list can be condensed Bill. I have installed and removed the wings by myself, as well as hanging the engine. I have mounted the gear TWICE by myself as well as doing the cowling. Doing the longerons by myself was not a problem either.
Canopy install and removal as well as the stabilator is a two person exercise (unless I discover a way to do it by myself).
Bill_H said:
The -12 can be built totally solo with the following minor exceptions, none of which is more than a few minutes needed for the additional person:
Taking the canopy on and off
Hanging the engine
Fitting the lower cowl the first few times
Taking wings on and off for a flaperon arm drilling (and final assembly)
Holding the HS in place while you slip in the washers and bolts
Mounting the gear
Bending the longerons. For help on this, search for the word THWACK

Skinning the wings goes VERY fast with two people but one can do it. With two, you both cleco and load the initial rivets, then one person pulls them while the other goes behind him/her and removes clecos and loads more rivets.
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I did the HS by myself and I am a very inexperienced builder. I did turn the air blue, however.

Really, I didn't think it was that difficult.

I haven't hooked up the fuse and tail feathers yet but that seems like it would require some help.
 
Mating the tail end to the fuse was an easy one man job, a real non-event except for looking a lot more finished.

sandpiper said:
I did the HS by myself and I am a very inexperienced builder. I did turn the air blue, however.

Really, I didn't think it was that difficult.

I haven't hooked up the fuse and tail feathers yet but that seems like it would require some help.
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DonFromTX said:
Mating the tail end to the fuse was an easy one man job, a real non-event except for looking a lot more finished.
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Don is right.
If you follow the process described in the manual it can be done solo (as can most everything if a builder chooses too).
 
Hi Wim

There are a number of 12s in the UK - I operate one from just west of London if you want to have a look and a fly.

Closer to you is one based in the Netherlands - look up Gagarin737 on the VAF RV-12 forum.

Blind rivets are found on many GA aircraft: the Tecnams (including the P2006T twin), SportCruiser and the Eurostars. Nothing to worry about there - I've been involved with Tecnams through work and haven't seen any working loose. Nothing has moved on the 12 in 100 hrs to date.

Similarly, the nose landing gear is not an issue - it is well designed/built.

In my opinion, many aircraft mechanic/engineer 'old hands' are scared of anything out of the ordinary or new be it non-solid rivets or a Rotax engine. Rotax is of course the engine of choice in Europe these days.

Regarding fuel, the Rotax is happy with up to 10% ethanol. Does your authority allow ethanol in Lycoming engines?

Also, MOGAS is not allowed in the UK in injected Lycomings because of vapour lock issues.

I previously built and flew a 6 and find the 12 great fun to fly.

I would blag a ride in both the 12 and the 9 before you commit.
 
The canopy can be done solo too. The only thing I've needed help for is moving/turning the wings. Everything else, engine, stab, gear legs, cowls can be done by one person with a bit of planning.
 
While these things "can be" done without help and with planning and ropes and pulleys and tables and foam pads and telekinesis, etc, what is being avoided is a few minutes of totally nonskilled help from pretty much any other person. In most cases that would not pose a problem to obtain. My intent was to contrast that to the many hours needed with another person with rivet-driving-or-bucking skills for all other RVs.
 
Blind rivets

If you look at the inlet lip on the engine nose cowl on any Boeings, you'll find lots of blind rivets. Should they work loose, they would be ingested by the engine causing megabucks worth of damage. In almost 50 years, I've never seen that happen.

The RV-12 Nose Gear appears to me to be substantially stouter than the other -A model RV's - probably because of flipping incident experience. And, the nose wheel is the same size as the Mains, making it much more resilient and robust. I helped a friend build his RV-9A and found myself constantly staring at his teeny nose wheel/tire. I found it disconcerting - especially since his airplane was so much bigger than mine.

Bob Bogash
RV-12
N737G
 
Bill_H said:
While these things "can be" done without help and with planning and ropes and pulleys and tables and foam pads and telekinesis, etc, what is being avoided is a few minutes of totally nonskilled help from pretty much any other person. In most cases that would not pose a problem to obtain. My intent was to contrast that to the many hours needed with another person with rivet-driving-or-bucking skills for all other RVs.
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Agreed Bill. No point making work for yourself if there's an easier way to do something, but it does show that the -12 is an almost one-person build compared to the other RV's.
 
I am sure that VANS will not sell a kit that will cause problems over time. It can ruin their reputation easily. I just take note that it is their first LSA. Only time will tell. My point is that if I listen to some of my advisors, who have nothing against the RV12, then they tell me that if they could choose, they prefer to go for the full rivets and the Lycoming. Even if I mention the advantages of the Rotax and the shorter building time. On the pop rivets they just expressed their experiences on other aircraft. The RV12 can be totally different, because I noticed, and as some mentioned, the structural parts are not using pop rivets. The best thing that I can do it to take my advisors to an RV12 and then let them judge. This is what I am currently trying to arrange. I had the chance to see a Rans 19S a few weeks ago. it was the first time that I noticed how different the pop rivets looked. I was honestly not amazed. On picture this kit looked totally different. This is the reason that it is better to see a real RV12 first.

Does anyone can tell me what exactly is the reason that you can build the RV12 in about half the time of the RV9? It can not just be because they used pop rivets?
 
WVM said:
Does anyone can tell me what exactly is the reason that you can build the RV12 in about half the time of the RV9? It can not just be because they used pop rivets?
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Pop rivets is part of the reason, but I think it's mainly because the RV-12 is a complete kit - engine, radiators, hoses, avionics, pre-made wiring harnesses, pre-bent sheets, etc, etc. Not having to think about, source, design and fabricate those items adds up to a lot of time-saving on the project. Add to that the excellent plans and instructions, and Vans have made it about as easy as possible to assemble an aircraft.
 
WVM said:
Does anyone can tell me what exactly is the reason that you can build the RV12 in about half the time of the RV9? It can not just be because they used pop rivets?
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Wim,

Here's the link to the My Kitlog website: http://www.mykitlog.com
You can do a search for both RV-9 and RV-12 build logs. Looking at those you should be able to see what some of the things are that run up the time on the RV-9 compared to the RV-12.

Jim
 
For those who have spent time flying both aircraft, is the increased view in the 12 substantial, or slight? Same question goes for handling in turbulent air.
 
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Hard questions. This is very subjective, and I would suspect the difference in view may vary with stature. I am 6'4", so I see things from that perspective. The difference in view is very noticeable. The size of the cowl actually caused me to land a bit nose-left, for the first few landings in the 12. The view over the nose is better in the 12, as is the view down over the wing. I would guess the difference would be greater for a smaller pilot.

On turbulence, I don't think there is a huge difference, but some. I believe you have to "work at" turbulence more in the 12. It isn't uncomfortable, and the autopilot handles that well. I find the 12 takes more work in gusty crosswind landings, but that may be because I don't have as much time in the 12.

Bob
 
WVM said:
...Does anyone can tell me what exactly is the reason that you can build the RV12 in about half the time of the RV9? It can not just be because they used pop rivets?
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A lot of the difference has to do with the quality of the RV-12 kit and instructions compared to the -9.

Less fabrication is required for the -12, you don't have to match drill, deburr, and dimple the holes, etc. The -12 is also a more complete kit whereas the -9 requires you to design and build your own electrical system, layout your instrument panel, buy the instruments unique to your requirements, etc.

All of those things are done on the -12. Heck, just laying out, cutting and drilling the panel on the -9 can take 20 plus hours. I spent probably 40 hours figuring out how to build and support the center throttle quadrant I wanted in place of the push/pull knobs typically found in an RV-9.
 
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Can anyone comment on interior space of the -12 vs the -9?

From the website looks liks the -12 is bigger.
 
ty1295 said:
I am game for a short road trip anytime. If there is a weekend/evening you guys are around the airport and want someone to bring lunch let me know.
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I sent you a PM with my phone number. Right now, things are pretty iffy with the weather. When the weather breaks, we will do it, probably on a weekend.

Bob
 
Last week I bought the RV9 empennage kit after I had the chance to see, touch and feel a RV9 and RV12 on the same day. The RV9 more felt like an airplane to me.
 
ty1295 said:
Can anyone comment on interior space of the -12 vs the -9?

From the website looks liks the -12 is bigger.
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Here's a question that never got answered. Anyone with experience in both planes care to address it? I am curious as well.
 
diamond said:
Here's a question that never got answered. Anyone with experience in both planes care to address it? I am curious as well.
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I own a 9 and have flown in the 12. I cannot say I noticed much difference in the roominess in the 12 vs the 9. They were about the same to me.
 
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