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BlackRV7 said:
David, after reading your posts concerning IFR, crash analysis and now night flying, you certainly sound like the ever conservative flyer. I say that in a good way....................but.......................

Night time, smooth air, no traffic, Ipod playing over the intercom, autopilot locked in............it doesn't get much better than that..........now back to your regular programming:)
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Dana,

Yea, I know the feeling.....but I can't do it SEL anymore.....no matter how good the odds, iPod and all, its a heck of way to die. If that engine quits, you are in deep do-do.

dd
 
BRS

When we start talking about BRS systems, we're going into a whole new ballpark. I think that having one might make some pilots take a risk that they otherwise wouldn't. I can already see some guys thinking, "Well, if the engine quits, I can pull the big, red handle". The outcome for all the Cirruses that did that (7 as I recall), was that they were all totalled but saved lives, which is a good thing.

Now we have to deal with the insurance companies, higher premiums for the guys who did pull the handle and the reluctance to even fly again, not to mention the deductible we had to eat. Whole 'nuther subject.

Regards,
 
Just to add to the everlasting run-on post.
The have been 10 crashes that ended in fatalities (13 deaths) from engine failure in the last five years at night. There were none in 2006.
I have done all my night flying after my PPL along the east coast from Savannah to Melbourne, FL. There are numerous airports along the way as well as that big blue thing to land at or in should I have engine trouble. I enjoy night flying, the air is generally quiet, the controllers are not over worked and the views are great. Have you ever seen the moon rise out of the ocean or flown over the parks around Disney at 2000' while all the fire works were going off? I enjoy it but I could see how others might not. I do it mostly to avoid the daytime heat. I could see myself limiting it as I get older and my night vision goes out the window. I didn't take my first night flight without an instructor until two years after getting my PPL. I didn't start until I had lots of hood time and actual IMC time. It's that JFK jr thing that sticks in my mind! Generally 2/3 of my flights are out over the ocean. If even you don't fly at night I don't blame you but you are missing some of greatest views!

Just my 3 cents! Let's see if we can morph the post into some thing completely different! Oh! We already did that!
 
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Continuing to morph the post...

I had an intense desire to go for a night flight as soon as I got my PPL. Dumb idea, but there were some great views.

The first night out I decided to take off from Reid Hillview (South San Jose CA) and fly over to San Jose International and then over the mountains to Monterey and then on some where else.

First, I had a little misunderstanding with San Jose ATC about how they wanted me to approach the airport. My actions caused the Voice of God to ring over the radio, "SEVEN THREE THREE ALPHA DELTA WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!?" Suffice it to say, I wasn't doing what he wanted me to be doing. I landed, and was totally rattled but I was supposed to get back up and go to Monterey. I was fumbling around in the dark, not sure of where to turn and with much larger aircraft following me around. I finally got back in the air and started heading out towards Monterey over the mountains in the dark. I quickly realized I had no idea where I was or what I would do if the engine quit. And over mountains that I couldn't really see. And then there is that stupid death needle out towards Watsonville (2000 foot radio tower on top of a 2500 foot mountain). I got half way to Monterey and called it quits - I headed back to RHV and landed and determined I would never overestimate my abilities again.

Three weeks later, I had forgotten my determination not to overestimate my abilities again and went out on another night flight to Big Sur via Monterey. Beautiful flight - I got pictures - of me going out over the Pacific south along the coast from Monterey. I visually found the Big Sur VOR and then headed over the mountains to King City and then back to RHV. Great flight - good thing the engine didn't quit over the mountains.

No great thoughts here, just reminiscing about past flying...
 
TSwezey said:
The have been 10 crashes that ended in fatalities (13 deaths) from engine failure in the last five years at night. There were none in 2006.
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This could be a very misleading number, since the amount of night flying is miniscule compared to the amount of daytime flying. I would argue that the number of engine failures every year (day or night) is quite large and that an engine out at night is a very bad deal.

As for the ocean being nearby, I assume you're not suggesting that the water is a good landing choice at night! The beach perhaps, but the water? Based on the training videos I've seen on egressing a submerged upside down aircraft, I'd have to say that doing it in the dark would be mighty tough without specifically training for it.

Personally, I love the sights and sensations of night flight, but I don't feel that the safety margin is wide enough in a single over built-up areas.
 
I like the beach! But I usually fly at 8500' or 9500' and there are many airports along the Georgia/Florida coast. If I lived on the West coast I don't know how much night flying I would do. The East coast is filled with marshes and beaches. Not good for the airplane but good for surviving.
 
TSwezey said:
I like the beach! But I usually fly at 8500' or 9500' and there are many airports along the Georgia/Florida coast. If I lived on the West coast I don't know how much night flying I would do. The East coast is filled with marshes and beaches. Not good for the airplane but good for surviving.
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Agreed - I like to fly at night, but I only fly up high. Actually, I always fly high, day or night. Drove my primary instructor batty 'cause I'd climb to 6500 for a 50-mile flight. One of my fondest memories since I got my PPL was an overflight of ABQ at 11,500 coming home from a snowskiing trip, at about 11 pm. Absolutely beautiful - words don't do it justice.

I always figured altitude was your friend in just about every way that counted for something, as long as you weren't in need of additional oxygen. Radio range, glide range, turbulence, TAS, engine efficiency, visibility - it's hard to make an argument for low-level X-country.
 
Its people like you that make me nervous, Aerobatic's are a skill that's aquired,many hours of hard work, Some pilot's push the envelope with out these skills. Training is the most important part of Aviation, sounds to me like you may need some more training in your weak area's of Aviation.
 
pdr said:
Its people like you that make me nervous, Aerobatic's are a skill that's aquired,many hours of hard work, Some pilot's push the envelope with out these skills. Training is the most important part of Aviation, sounds to me like you may need some more training in your weak area's of Aviation.
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Huh? Who? I don't get this one. :confused:
 
Dgamble said:
I can't think of a worse time or scenario for your first attempt at formation flying. Unless you're willing to rule out formation flight entirely, with no exceptions whatsoever, get some training in it. I can point to quite a few accidents, one of which killed a US Senator, that were caused by impromptu formation flight in an already stressful situation.
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It's also against the FARs unless you arrange it ahead of time. Which is to say on the ground.
 
Agree or consent to formation in advance yes, on the ground is not necessary, consent by com/radio fills the requirement. If you see your buddy out flying and can contact him on the radio and both agree to a formation then your perfectly legal.
 
Russ McCutcheon said:
Agree or consent to formation in advance yes, on the ground is not necessary, consent by com/radio fills the requirement. If you see your buddy out flying and can contact him on the radio and both agree to a formation then your perfectly legal.
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Or if you see your trusted buddy out there, and you pull up alongside his airplane -- at a distance -- and rock your wings. He sees you and moves into position off your wing. Hand & aircraft signals from there. There's no reg that says anything about needing a radio, let alone needing to use it. Consent in this case is implied by having a visual and responding affirmatively to a signal.

I'm not saying don't use your radio...just saying 91.111(b) simply requires "by arrangement with the pilot in command of each aircraft in the formation."
 
dan said:
Or if you see your trusted buddy out there, and you pull up alongside his airplane -- at a distance -- and rock your wings. He sees you and moves into position off your wing. Hand & aircraft signals from there. There's no reg that says anything about needing a radio, let alone needing to use it. Consent in this case is implied by having a visual and responding affirmatively to a signal.

I'm not saying don't use your radio...just saying 91.111(b) simply requires "by arrangement with the pilot in command of each aircraft in the formation."
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One of my trusted buddies was up in his Pits a couple weeks ago and I knew it but could not see him before take off so I figured, well I know he's out there somewhere, it's time to roll. Sure enough at about 700' I looked right before turning and there he was coming in on my wing. No big deal, we have an "arrangement". In a couple minutes he rocked his wings and was gone and I went on my way to have lunch with some other guys.

Formation is a friendly greeting among pilots who know each other....get checked out, you'll love it.

dd
 
rv6ejguy said:
When I wipe down the RV, I usually think of how lucky I am to have my health and the means to own and fly an RV. I look at her all shiny and think wow, I built this! Turn out the lights and drive home with a smile on my face. :)

Merry Christmas to all on VAF and safe flying to you all in 2007.
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Well said. Having the freedom and ability to fly - however you choose do to it - is what it's all about.
 
Russ McCutcheon said:
Agree or consent to formation in advance yes, on the ground is not necessary, consent by com/radio fills the requirement. If you see your buddy out flying and can contact him on the radio and both agree to a formation then your perfectly legal.
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You're right! It's been a while since I read 91.111, I could have sworn it specified an arrangement prior to the flight. Of course, not a reg I really memorized (obviously.)
 
I think we should just rename this post Pot Luck! (Though Doug can't rename a Post) We have discussed crashing, flying IFR, flying at night, personal limits, control systems for passenger jets, aerobatics, formation flying. I have actually learned some things from this post and hope it continues as a open forum of random yet some how interconnected topics. As for formation flying, I was sitting in the rear seat of Robby Knox's RV-8 in the #4 ship of a extremely loose 4 ship formation coming back from LOE this year. Doug was in tight next to Danny King while the other two of us were trailing behind. All I have to say is coming over the mountains of N.M. in formation and then down to the plains of west Texas was by far the most fun I have ever had flying. And I was just a passenger! I can't wait to finish my plane and get formation training.
 
This is my last post in this thread. And this time I mean it.

Formation and aerobatics are fun - even I will admit that. How many times I sat in California Bay Area traffic wishing I could just roar on through the mountain passes 500 feet above the traffic. It would be an absolute blast until the one time I clipped a power line or a guy wire or encountered a sudden unexpected mountain downdraft. I wish I could do it, but in good conscience but I can't after having taken a look at the accident reports.

Now onto a new thread!

-- OldAndBoring
 
TSwezey said:
I think we should just rename this post Pot Luck! (Though Doug can't rename a Post) We have discussed crashing, flying IFR, flying at night, personal limits, control systems for passenger jets, aerobatics, formation flying. I have actually learned some things from this post and hope it continues as a open forum of random yet some how interconnected topics......
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If nothing else, the thread has identified aspects of flight that are perceived as a greater risk than others. Aerobatics and formation flight skills can be learned by most anyone and the perceived risk is reduced to near zero. Night flight and IMC are more risky than in VMC no matter what, although training certainly will reduce pilot error events. Mechanical or electrical failure under these circumstances almost always ends not good.

Beyond that, basic flying skills are an absolute must to live a long happy flying life. There are pilots who will accept +/- 10 knots as OK. It isn't. If the approach speed is 70 knots, fly 70 and not something between 60 and 80. This is essential to survive an engine failure. Know your glide speed and do not let anything detract from maintaining it. The objective, as Bob Hoover said a long time ago, fly as far as possible into the crash.

A particularly sad crash happened about 7 miles from our home 2 years ago - VFR at night - 4 people dead after an enjoyable flight down state for a late lunch. This one occurred in an airplane with no malfunctions.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20040920X01462&key=1

Flying can and should be fun (I flew today and thoroughly enjoyed it) but we must never forget what was written about aviation safety many years ago -

AVIATION IN ITSELF IS NOT INHERENTLY DANGEROUS. BUT TO AN EVEN GREATER DEGREE THAN THE SEA, IT IS TERRIBLY UNFORGIVING OF ANY CARELESSNESS, INCAPACITY OR NEGLECT.

dd




 
OldAndBold said:
I emailed BRS last week and asked them about RV installs and if they had a model suitable for RVs. The answer was yes, but they didn't give me a model number.

You are right there are probably areas of the RV's envelope that exceed the BRS capabilities. So don't use it if outside of the limits unless you are certain you have nothing to loose?

--JCB
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I installed one: http://rvparachutes.com
 
Nice job! Where did you get the idea about the plastic egress covering? Is that something that will be an easy enough knock-out for the rocket? I'm wondering about some type of thin metallic foil, like kitchen aluminum foil on steroids, something like that. I like the BRS idea, I must admit I hadn't even considered it as a viable possibility on an RV, but now you've got me thinking. I don't think I'd put the activation handle there, though - I believe I'd be too likely to grab that thing and treat it like a parking brake.
 
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Thanks Chuck. I will spend some time studying your work.

Have you made any decisions about how and when you might choose to deploy the chute as opposed to trying tto ride out a problem?

--JCB
 
Just a quick look at the last five years and your chances of dying in an engine out at night is 2.5 times greater than an engine out during the day. All types of GA planes not just RV's.
 
If you have ever had an engine failure

Does this make sense statistically? If you have already had an engine failure your chances of having another one are greatly reduced, three are even less likely, etc. Therefore, according to the laws of probability, if you have had an engine failure in the daytime, you should be even more confident of not having another one when flying at night.

Some may argue that the chances of having an engine failure on any given flight are the same, regardless of how many you have had previously. Of course, there's always Murphy's Law to consider...
 
The stats or odds are of little comfort when it actually happens especially if you are over trees, water, mountains or at night. I know one fellow who has had 4 engine failures in about a 10,000 hour flying career. Another who has done 8 forced landing through various causes (CFI many hours) including engine failures. Another with 2 on PT6 aircraft. Nobody is immune. Many just think that it will never happen to them. If you fly long enough, it will happen to you.

If you leave yourself with no options, engine failures can kill you no matter what your skill level is.
 
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Statistics

CFI1513840 said:
Does this make sense statistically? If you have already had an engine failure your chances of having another one are greatly reduced, three are even less likely, etc. Therefore, according to the laws of probability, if you have had an engine failure in the daytime, you should be even more confident of not having another one when flying at night. ...
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Events that happened in the past do not affect the probability of future events, assuming of course that we are talking about truly random events.

However, if your engine failed because your mechanic is a knucklehead, and you keep using the same mechanic, then I'd say you are more likely to get engine failures in the future. :)
 
CFI1513840 said:
Does this make sense statistically? If you have already had an engine failure your chances of having another one are greatly reduced, three are even less likely, etc. Therefore, according to the laws of probability, if you have had an engine failure in the daytime, you should be even more confident of not having another one when flying at night.

Some may argue that the chances of having an engine failure on any given flight are the same, regardless of how many you have had previously. Of course, there's always Murphy's Law to consider...
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Having a failure has no bearing on any subsequent failures (assuming the first failure didn't affect/cause the second somehow, as in the same plane and the same overhaul, etc.)

Kind of like playing the lottery. You win once, and assuming the odds don't change and you again buy the same number of random tickets, your chances of winning again are still the same.

Guess I should have read the last post, Mickey. Sorry to repeat.
 
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Do the odds change?

Odds are that one is better prepared for the second engine failure. Some of the posts indicated that attitudes change for the better after the first. :)

Regards, John.
 
I've learnt a lot

Well I must admit I've learnt a lot from this thread. I've learnt that builders with Subaru engines are more likely to post about the dangers of engine failures in flight. I've learnt that having an engine failure at night is more risky than during the day (who would've guessed that). I've learnt that some pilots don't fly at Xmas in case they kill themselves and ruin their family's Xmas celebrations into the future (very considerate of them too !)

And finally I've learnt that when Old and Bold says "this is really my last post" he doesn't really mean it.
 
"DOH!"

Captain Avgas said:
Well I must admit I've learnt a lot from this thread...
And finally I've learnt that when Old and Bold says "this is really my last post" he doesn't really mean it.
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DOH!!!​


--JCB
 
There's a safety key. The ABS plastic is from BRS.
I hope to never use it but it's more comfortable than a chute on my back.
I fly alot over the Shawnee Forest here in Southern Illinois.
Not many spots to put her down if engine out, but still would
be a hard to make that call to pull the chute.

P.S. If I lost a wing I'd pull it.
 
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CFI1513840 said:
Does this make sense statistically? If you have already had an engine failure your chances of having another one are greatly reduced, three are even less likely, etc. Therefore, according to the laws of probability, if you have had an engine failure in the daytime, you should be even more confident of not having another one when flying at night.

Some may argue that the chances of having an engine failure on any given flight are the same, regardless of how many you have had previously. Of course, there's always Murphy's Law to consider...
Click to expand...

I know a guy who's had 3 engine failures, and I live in Murphysboro,
the home of Murphy's Law. :)
 
OldAndBold said:
I really don't mean to incite a riot here, but look at the NTSB accident reports for RVs for yourself and tell me what they tell you.

JCB
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you really need to re-evaluate your flying emotions. you r a low time pilot but talk like you are scared to death to fly period. you won't do this , if that...... you won't fly if..... you will only fly tight inspection if my buddy is in trouble or if you are in trouble...... probably one of the most dangerous maneuvers is to inspect someones a/c IN FLIGHT. r u nuts? if you think ur airplane is coming apart, i would not fly anywhere near you. you need a lot more confidence and experience or stop flying. sorry, but your message scared me. i hope i am wrong but i feel your mindset is not safe for you to fly. you're going to be so ate up in concentrating on the wrong things. i sure hope i am wrong. ask yourself if you are too scared to fly. if you have to think about the answer, stop flying or get some more traing. please don't take this the wrong way. be safe and live long. fly, only if you feel comfortable and enjoy it.
 
How many guys think they are insured as pilot PIC? Is your passenger insured?

Not in this case, I think I heard only liability for parking at the airport.

So the lawsuit is probably right around the corner, if it isn't already filed.
 
YIKES YOU ARE RIGHT - RV KIT FOR SALE

VETE76 said:
you really need to re-evaluate your flying emotions. you r a low time pilot but talk like you are scared to death to fly period. you won't do this , if that...... you won't fly if..... you will only fly tight inspection if my buddy is in trouble or if you are in trouble...... probably one of the most dangerous maneuvers is to inspect someones a/c IN FLIGHT. r u nuts? if you think ur airplane is coming apart, i would not fly anywhere near you. you need a lot more confidence and experience or stop flying. sorry, but your message scared me. i hope i am wrong but i feel your mindset is not safe for you to fly. you're going to be so ate up in concentrating on the wrong things. i sure hope i am wrong. ask yourself if you are too scared to fly. if you have to think about the answer, stop flying or get some more traing. please don't take this the wrong way. be safe and live long. fly, only if you feel comfortable and enjoy it.
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I will be mailing back my certificate tomorrow priority mail to the FAA. Hope that helps make the skies safer. And I have an RV-7A kit for sale.

:D

JCB
 
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