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It may not apply to this particular accident, as the facts are not in, but it does remind me of what a friend used to say. This guy was a regular participant at airshows and he told me to "never ever do a low loop. Do a high loop and a buzz job if you loop at an airshow." Based on the numerous videos I have seen of airshow loops where the airplane ended up crashing into the ground (including a member of a military demonstration team) I think this is real good advice for us all.

The loop is a very simple aerobatic manuveur, just pull back, right? The major problem is, if you start too low, or with too little energy, there is no way to salvage it.
 
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Low level aerobatics

Leave low level aerobaticts to the pros. Loops and rolls at low level have killed many inexperienced pilots. Airshow pilots practice there routines at altitude and gradually bring them down. The pros have a ground observer with radio and altitude read out to warn of potential problems. If you have to do it, do a Cuban 8, it looks better and will give much more altitude control. Roger moore RV4DRVR
 
The "pros" hit the ground also. Do away with low level wavers. Only the front row can see how brave (?) you are and how close to the ground you come.
Tom
 
Roger Moore said:
Leave low level aerobaticts to the pros. Loops and rolls at low level have killed many inexperienced pilots. Airshow pilots practice there routines at altitude and gradually bring them down. The pros have a ground observer with radio and altitude read out to warn of potential problems. If you have to do it, do a Cuban 8, it looks better and will give much more altitude control. Roger moore RV4DRVR
Click to expand...

Low level loops have killed plenty of experienced aerobatic pilots as well. Any slight mistake and you are dead once past 45 degrees coming down over the top. You can't pull out and you can't roll out. Do them at altitude. One of my dad's friends who was a WW2 Spitfire pilot, post war F86 pilot and lucky enough to demo Cliff Robertson's Spit at airshows in the '70s and '80s said he never looped the Spit at low altitude, only rolls it. It looks better and is way safer. He is still around after 55 years of flying.
 
rv6ejguy said:
Low level loops have killed plenty of experienced aerobatic pilots as well. Any slight mistake and you are dead once past 45 degrees coming down over the top. You can't pull out and you can't roll out. Do them at altitude. One of my dad's friends who was a WW2 Spitfire pilot, post war F86 pilot and lucky enough to demo Cliff Robertson's Spit at airshows in the '70s and '80s said he never looped the Spit at low altitude, only rolls it. It looks better and is way safer. He is still around after 55 years of flying.
Click to expand...

A high school friend from Minnesota and later airline pilot, bought a Stearman, took much training in it, and while the FAA was observing an effort to get the low altitude certificate, had an engine failure on top of a loop. The aircraft descended almost vertical into a corn field, crashed and burned, and that was the end of his life. All in about 10 seconds. End of story.

dd
 
Just too sad...

First of all, to the friends and family I extend my sincerest condolences.

But I think there is something that needs to be said here. I am a low time pilot and also a low time new father. I have way too much to live for to be doing some of the things that my fellow RVers seem to think is worth the risks. I have been reading the NTSB reports just like the rest of you and have drawn some conclusions and I would humbly state them here:

1) RV formation flying is a high risk activity. It should not be done. Lots of our RV friends have died doing this. I don't want to be one of them; I do not intend to fly my RV in any formation except in an emergency (for example, if I need someone to inspect my aircraft in the air or I need to help someone else in a similar situation). I would only need to lose my concentration for a second or two and have a collision. It ain't worth it.

2) Flying in poor conditions - MVFR or IMC. For some reason a bunch of our friends have done this and died as a result. Sometimes, when flying in formation! Clear skies and good forecasts, or a well thought out IFR plan and an current instrument rating, or don't go!

3) Dumb low level aerobatics. In my book, about the only valid reason to do aerobatics at all is emergency maneuver training. And then only well above 3000 feet AGL. Too many accident reports seem to imply someone was trying to do some very low level stunt or tried to fly their RV as if it were an F16. Too many of the reports talk about wings folding up due to excessive Gs. Do you really trust your life to those bolts that hold the wings on after they have been stressed to 6 Gs? I sure don't. Not one of us *not one* is qualified to be doing these kinds of stunts. We lost Nancy Lynn to these stunts. I don't care if you are an ATP with 6 million hours of flying time and have turned down offers from NASA to fly the space shuttle - you are not qualified to safely perform these stunts. I am not and I never will be and so I will not do it.

4) Engine quits on takeoff and pilot dies trying to recover either because of fuel starvation or failing to refuel properly. Do we all really have a sensible plan each and every time we take off for what we will do if the engine quits 200 feet up and at the end of the runway? Until recently, I sure didn't - I would just hoped it didn't happen. Where I was trained (Reid Hillview in San Jose), there really wasn't any safe place to land if the engine quit off of runway 31 but everyone just accepted this as something they had to live with. Perhaps we had some vague idea that we would avoid cars and land on the 680 expressway or avoid light poles and land on East Capitol - not much of a plan! Now, I specifically choose my airports and flying days so that I can use a runway that has an open field just beyond the end of the runway. If there isn't such a safe flat spot ahead, I won't fly there.

5) I fully intend to find out how to install a BRS parachute on my RV7. Lots of extra construction time and $8000 well spent I say.

I hope I haven't ruffled anyone's feathers but I really would like to not hear about anymore RVers dying while flying RVs. We are all supposed to be having fun.

John Babrick
N777XV (really - I am going to work on the empennage today!)
Shelbyville MI
 
If you're saying that any formation or acro is too dangerous, then you're going to get flamed like crazy on here. Good luck.
 
formation guys

said alot but deleted it.......the formation concerns me. there probally is a person or 12 qualified to fly acro though.
 
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szicree said:
If you're saying that any formation or acro is too dangerous, then you're going to get flamed like crazy on here. Good luck.
Click to expand...

I really don't mean to incite a riot here, but look at the NTSB accident reports for RVs for yourself and tell me what they tell you.

JCB
 
John makes some good points but for many, acro and formation flying is what makes RVing really fun. Please do remember to take proper training, do a PROPER briefing prior to any formation flying and know your capabilities. Know when to say no to yourself and others.

Low flying increases your risk and low level acro even more so. This is just fact. Think you are a super gifted pilot? So did many others who left smoking holes in the earth who were probably way more experienced than you. Think about your family and friends before you do that low pass, skip checks or fly into poor weather beyond your capabilities. I'd prefer you were a little bored than a little dead. There are probably no S. Tuckers on VAF and even he has been very lucky (not to mention very good) twice in the last few years.

Enjoy your RV but know its limits and yours. Flying can be dangerous enough with freak things happening from time to time which are not within your control. It is really just stupid to be killed doing something which is within your control.

You don't NEED to fly in marginal conditions and you never NEED to get to that destination and your certainly don't NEED to be performing acro at low altitudes.

Too many have been killed this year. Let's all be more careful in 2007 and have a moment to think of friends lost in accidents. We can all learn something from these accidents and please do. This is the reason accident reports are published.
 
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No flames here.

I can see why people like to do acro, even when no one is looking. It a great way for people to blow off steam. I don't do acro and probably never will. I like Formation flying but it tends to get me too tense concentrating on watching the other guy's plane.

Acro and formation are perfectly safe when done properly. As are most things in life. Your airplane. Your mission.
 
OldAndBold said:
5) I fully intend to find out how to install a BRS parachute on my RV7. Lots of extra construction time and $8000 well spent I say.
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I'd be really curious about potential RV installation locations. On high-wings, the BRS is normally mounted abeam or just aft of the trailing edge (Cirrus, CT, BRS' Cessna package). On low-wings, the only install I've seen is on the Evektor, where the mount the BRS in between the firewall and the panel area. A Service Bulletin from CASA has lots of good photos of the install. All new 2-seat RV models (-7, -8, and -9) should have enough room. If you have a -8 with the front baggage area, the BRS might fit very handily.

Our FlightDesign CT has the 1350 VLS High Speed version. It uses a canister shaped like a giant 2 liter coke bottle with an axially mounted rocket. The rocket and parachute are designed to punch through what looks like a heavy polyethylene panel. This is the "high speed" version, meaning that it has a slower opening canopy, and is OK for activation up to 160kt. This is plenty for the CT (if you're doing even 150kt, you've got problems).

As the name suggests, this version is limited to 1350 MGTW. There are 1500MGTW canister models, but this isn't enough for any RV but the -3. There is a 1800 MGTW version that uses a "softpack" - much like what is pictured in the Evektor referenced above. It is limited to 152kt - not enough for a RV. The list price for the 1800HD is $8000. View the specs for the entire BRS line. There is a European competitor to BRS, Galaxy, which has a similar product lineup.

None of these really fit the performance envelope of the RV due to the airframe's higher speeds, although there are many BRS deployments that have taken place at above the maximum published speed. Save #100 was on a CT fitted with the 1350HS unit. The test pilot was conducting a flutter test and got more than he planned for. Around 170kt (15 above VNE, 10kt above max BRS speed) an aileron parted company with the wing and start ripping the wing open. The pilot thought it would be a good idea to use the BRS and lived to tell about it.

I suppose it would be great if BRS would make a model suited for the RV's performance and weight. Perhaps we should try for a group buy ;)

PS - these chutes work well at altitudes as low as 500 AGL, but that won't help you in you're doing a loop and are too low. As others have noted, perhaps the solution is not to loop close to the ground.
 
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BRS...

the_other_dougreeves said:
I'd be really curious about potential RV installation locations...
Click to expand...


I emailed BRS last week and asked them about RV installs and if they had a model suitable for RVs. The answer was yes, but they didn't give me a model number.

You are right there are probably areas of the RV's envelope that exceed the BRS capabilities. So don't use it if outside of the limits unless you are certain you have nothing to loose?

--JCB
 
Do or do not, there is no try

I do not intend to fly my RV in any formation except in an emergency (for example, if I need someone to inspect my aircraft in the air or I need to help someone else in a similar situation).
Click to expand...
I can't think of a worse time or scenario for your first attempt at formation flying. Unless you're willing to rule out formation flight entirely, with no exceptions whatsoever, get some training in it. I can point to quite a few accidents, one of which killed a US Senator, that were caused by impromptu formation flight in an already stressful situation.
 
John,

You're right that some people take unnecessary risks while flying. It's sad when a fellow RV'er dies from a preventable accident like this one seems to be. However, we should be careful about judging anyone for it. The fact is that flying sport aircraft of any sort is an unnecessary activity. It's also fairly dangerous even under the best of conditions. To borrow your phrase: Not one of us is qualified to prevent all accidents. Yet we all like to fly anyway. And when we do, we put ourselves and others at risk for the sake of what is essentially a pleasant pastime.

The point is that we all have to evaluate the risk/reward equation for ourselves. If someone dies doing low-level aerobatics, formation flying, or any other flying, then I tend to assume he was doing what he enjoyed and knew the risks. I would never try to apply my risk/reward calculations to someone else's flying.

Alas, a minor passenger was also killed this time and that's certainly harder to defend. I would hope that the passenger also knew the risks they were taking. However, being a minor means that he couldn't legally or morally give consent for those risks. Perhaps the parents gave consent but there's still a pretty big moral problem in taking such risks with the life of a minor. That said, I'd wager that most of us have taken minors for rides. It's almost never necessary but we do it anyway just for the fun of it. On every single one of such flights, there's a chance that the child could be killed but we do it anyway. Why? Because it appears to be worth it when we calculate the risk/reward equation.

Also, I object to your singling out of RV's. The risks of low-level aerobatics are similar between an RV, Rocket, and any other aircraft; even an F16. All types have their advantages and disadvantages. One might even argue that the RV is better suited than most to this mission.

Another way of saying it is that we can't be sport pilots while eschewing all unnecessary risk because our flying is simultaneously risky and unnecessary.

That's not to say that all behaviors are acceptable. It's one thing to kill oneself flying aerobatics after appropriate training and practice. It's another to auger in by choosing to attempt ones first roll without training and at 100' AGL.

Just my $0.02.
 
OldAndBold said:
I emailed BRS last week and asked them about RV installs and if they had a model suitable for RVs. The answer was yes, but they didn't give me a model number.

You are right there are probably areas of the RV's envelope that exceed the BRS capabilities. So don't use it if outside of the limits unless you are certain you have nothing to loose?

--JCB
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I've alwys thought of the BRS as a last resort - use it when there is no otherway to bring the airplane home safely and without risk of serious injury. You might recover the airplane once you use the "jiffy-pop", but it's best to think that the airplane belongs to the insurance co once you pull the handle.

If the airplane is uncontrollable, I'll pull the BRS, because really, what do I have to loose?
 
Just to clear a couple of things up (in my opinion, at any rate).

RV formation flying actually has a pretty good safety record as far as I can tell. I haven't had a look through the NTSB database but I can't remember the last time an RV was involved in a formation accident. Maybe it's my bad memory. If I'm wrong here feel free to correct me.

re: aerobatics. I must disagree. There are certainly many people qualified to perform aerobatics. The fact that you choose not to is your choice but aerobatics needn't be any more dangerous than any other kind of flying. And yes, I would "trust" my wing bolts after being stressed within design parameters. What's so special about 6g's? Why not start distrusting them at 3g's or 2g's? 6G's isn't close to the edge. On the contrary, it's well within the envelope with room to spare...this is by design. I would not build an aircraft if I didn't trust the designer to get his numbers right.

There are even people qualified to perform low-level aerobatics. The fact that people die doing this is beside the point. People die climbing mountains and racing cars as well...they even die by choking on straws at McDonalds. Of course, doing low level acro with a passenger is just plain stupid and irresponsible. And doing ANYTHING without proper training is pretty dumb too. We'll be in agreement here.

I did my private at RHV too. You're right...there's not much of anywhere to go heading north if your engine dies just as your wheels leave the ground. That's true of most airports I've flown at, though. Still, in most cases if your aircraft comes to rest under control you'll walk away. I HAVE looked through the NTSB database for this. I don't have hard numbers but I know an awful lot of fatalities (that don't have to do with continued flight into IMC) ended with a low level stall/spin into the ground. If you hit nose first, irrespective of anything else you will probably have a bad day.

So anyhow, one other thing we'll probably agree on is safety and risk management is always the top priority. As for me, I'll continue to enjoy the view safely hanging from my straps :D
 
Kevin -

I was singling out RVs because that is what I will be flying. My point was that I have gone through the NTSB statistics for RV fatal accidents and commented on the trends I seemed to see. RV accidents are most relevant to us; Cessna accidents not so much so. The NTSB accidents seem to represent the sorts of things we RVers seem to be doing a lot of.

I seem to remember that when I did this exercise I found that there were about 80-90 fatal RV accidents and I noted that there were only about 3500 RVs flying by that time. You do the math - those ain't real good odds: if my math is correct, 2.5% of all RVs have ended up in a fatal accident. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Also, I was only commenting on what my conclusions were for myself. If anyone else really wants to do low level aerobatics, or needlessly fly in poor weather, or not prepare adequately for takeoff engine outs then they have my sympathy. It simply seems to me that RV flying is risky enough as it is - and I want to know what can I do to reduce my risk.

--JCB
 
The BS in BSR

Hi guys,
I just don't see the validity or justification in ballistic parachute recovery systems in an RV designed for 6 g's day in and day out with an ultimate load factor of 9 g's. You'd have to be a total idiot to stress your airplane to 9 G's and pull the wings off with that little wing-remover tool in your right hand!

Some of the Cirrus guys who pulled the red handle were really doing dumb things because they had that handle and the 'chute at their disposal. It kinda predisposes them to act the way they did, IMHO.

Let's face it....we live in a dangerous climate with thugs around every corner and adding this wonderful hobby/pasttime has its inevitable risks and we can't become so totally insulated from all potential harm that we live in a cocoon of safety. If you fly, you might die. If you drive, you may well die sooner. If you skydive...blah...blah....blah. on and on it goes. You give it your best shot, use what brains you have and let the dice fall where they may.

Regards,
 
Some sample NTSB narratives...

There are about 104 fatal accidents involving RVs according to the search I just did on their database.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/aviation.htm

Here is a quick sample a few narratives. Read all 104 and judge for yourselves:

"THE ACCIDENT OCCURRED DURING A 'SHOWCASE' FLYBY AT THE ANNUAL EAA CONVENTION. THE ACFT WAS FLYING #4 POSITION IN A FORMATION OF 4 ACFT. THE FLT WAS EXECUTING A VERY STEEP, NEAR 90 DEG BANK LEFT TURN AT 300-500 FT WHEN THE ACFT'S CAME UP & OVER PUTTING THE ACFT INTO AN INVERTED POSITION. THE PLT REGAINED AN UPRIGHT POSITION WHILE IN A DESCENT & THE ACFTSTRUCK A TREE. THE FLT LEADER STATED THERE WAS NO PLANE-TO-PLANE RADIO COMMUNICATIONS ESTABLISHED TO ADVISE THE WING & SLOT PLTS OF THE MANEUVERS ABOUT TO BE PERFORMED."

"THE FLT WAS TO TEST A NEWLY INSTALLED AIRSPEED INDICATOR. A PASSENGER WHO WENT ON THE FLT SURVIVED THE ACCIDENT AND SAIDTHE PILOT HAD DONE AN AILERON ROLL FROM 4000 FT MSL (ABOUT 1700 FT AGL) AND HAD BUFFETED AND LOST ALT DURING RECOVERY. AFTER A HIGH SPEED PASS OVER THE ARPT THE PILOT CLIMBED TO ABOUT 3000 FT MSL DID A 180 DEGREE TURN. HE DID ANOTHER AILERON ROLL AND WHEN THE ACFT CAME OUT OF IT A BUFFET OCCURRED AND THE ACFT HIT THE GROUND BEFORE RECOVERY WAS COMPLETED. IT COULD NOT BE ESTABLISHED THAT THE PILOT HAD ANY AEROBATIC TRAINING."

"THE ACFT CRASHED OUT OF CONTROL AFTER & LOW ALT DEMONSTRATION PASSES ABOVE RWY AT ABOUT 50 FT AGL. AFTER THE LAST PASS, A LOW AIRSPEED MANEUVER. THE PLT EXECUTED A STEEP TURN AND DESCENDED IN A NOSE LOW ATTITUDE TO GROUND IMPACT."

"THE ACFT STALLED IN A TURN DURING A FORCED LANDING AFTER THE ENGINE LOST POWER. POST ACC INVESTIGATION REVEALED AN INOPERATIVE FUEL SELECTOR VALVE. WITNESSES SAID THAT THE ACFT DID NOT SOUND LIKE IT WAS DEVELOPING FULL PWR DURING TAKE OFF ROLL. SHORTLY AFTER TAKEOFF THE ENG SPUTTERED AND DIED. WHEN THE PLT TRIED TO CLIMB & TURN BACK TO THE ARPT HE LOST CONTRL AND STALLED INTO THE GROUND."

I want to survive and I want all of you to survive as well.

JCB
 
OldAndBold said:
There are about 104 fatal accidents involving RVs according to the search I just did on their database.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/aviation.htm

Here is a quick sample a few narratives. Read all 104 and judge for yourselves:

"THE ACCIDENT OCCURRED DURING A 'SHOWCASE' FLYBY AT THE ANNUAL EAA CONVENTION. THE ACFT WAS FLYING #4 POSITION IN A FORMATION OF 4 ACFT. THE FLT WAS EXECUTING A VERY STEEP, NEAR 90 DEG BANK LEFT TURN AT 300-500 FT WHEN THE ACFT'S CAME UP & OVER PUTTING THE ACFT INTO AN INVERTED POSITION. THE PLT REGAINED AN UPRIGHT POSITION WHILE IN A DESCENT & THE ACFTSTRUCK A TREE. THE FLT LEADER STATED THERE WAS NO PLANE-TO-PLANE RADIO COMMUNICATIONS ESTABLISHED TO ADVISE THE WING & SLOT PLTS OF THE MANEUVERS ABOUT TO BE PERFORMED."

"THE FLT WAS TO TEST A NEWLY INSTALLED AIRSPEED INDICATOR. A PASSENGER WHO WENT ON THE FLT SURVIVED THE ACCIDENT AND SAIDTHE PILOT HAD DONE AN AILERON ROLL FROM 4000 FT MSL (ABOUT 1700 FT AGL) AND HAD BUFFETED AND LOST ALT DURING RECOVERY. AFTER A HIGH SPEED PASS OVER THE ARPT THE PILOT CLIMBED TO ABOUT 3000 FT MSL DID A 180 DEGREE TURN. HE DID ANOTHER AILERON ROLL AND WHEN THE ACFT CAME OUT OF IT A BUFFET OCCURRED AND THE ACFT HIT THE GROUND BEFORE RECOVERY WAS COMPLETED. IT COULD NOT BE ESTABLISHED THAT THE PILOT HAD ANY AEROBATIC TRAINING."

"THE ACFT CRASHED OUT OF CONTROL AFTER & LOW ALT DEMONSTRATION PASSES ABOVE RWY AT ABOUT 50 FT AGL. AFTER THE LAST PASS, A LOW AIRSPEED MANEUVER. THE PLT EXECUTED A STEEP TURN AND DESCENDED IN A NOSE LOW ATTITUDE TO GROUND IMPACT."

"THE ACFT STALLED IN A TURN DURING A FORCED LANDING AFTER THE ENGINE LOST POWER. POST ACC INVESTIGATION REVEALED AN INOPERATIVE FUEL SELECTOR VALVE. WITNESSES SAID THAT THE ACFT DID NOT SOUND LIKE IT WAS DEVELOPING FULL PWR DURING TAKE OFF ROLL. SHORTLY AFTER TAKEOFF THE ENG SPUTTERED AND DIED. WHEN THE PLT TRIED TO CLIMB & TURN BACK TO THE ARPT HE LOST CONTRL AND STALLED INTO THE GROUND."

I want to survive and I want all of you to survive as well.

JCB
Click to expand...


Case 1: they were doing formation aerobatics, as far as I can tell. Plus they had no communications and were winging it as to the maneuvers. This has nothing to do with formation flying. This has to do with carelessness and poor judgement.

Case 2: He had no aerobatic training.

Case 3: Low altitude acro. I don't see anything about a low altitude waiver, training or that he was practicing preplanned maneuvers as any sane person would do. Another case of winging it, apparently.

Case 4: Engine lost power...stall/spin into the ground (this almost always kills you, by the way).

You've established that poor judgment and low altitude stall/spins can get people killed. I hate to belabor this but it's misleading and intellectually dishonest to take from accidents like these that aerobatics is somehow wrong and people who perform them are somehow irresponsible.
 
jcoloccia said:
You've established that poor judgment and low altitude stall/spins can get people killed. I hate to belabor this but it's misleading and intellectually dishonest to take from accidents like these that aerobatics is somehow wrong and people who perform them are somehow irresponsible.
Click to expand...

You hit it right on John.

If we use the NTSB reports in our decission process of what we will do with our RV's, I think we would also have to add -

No use of grass runways

No use of airports with runways shorter than 5000'

No flying at night

No flying if your RV has tricycle gear :)

etc. etc. etc.


Bottom line... Don't do (it) if you have been properly trained and haven't properly planned the flight.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
You hit it right on John.

If we use the NTSB reports in our decission process of what we will do with our RV's, I think we would also have to add -

No use of grass runways

No use of airports with runways shorter than 5000'

No flying at night

No flying if your RV has tricycle gear :)

etc. etc. etc.


Bottom line... Don't do (it) if you have been properly trained and haven't properly planned the flight.
Click to expand...


I might add that getting out of bed in the morning can set you up for any number of life threatening scenarios even before you get in your car and drive in formation with all those unknown idiots who "share" the road.

Well, I won't stay in bed and I won't cease formation flying or aerobatic flying as I derive a great deal of pleasure from both. I plan each event with care and stay within my capabilities and those of my RV-8. I am, however considering an end to driving as I do not know or trust all those idiots on the road.

Ron Schreck
RV-8, "Miss Izzy"
Gold Hill Airpark, NC
 
ronschreck said:
Well, I won't stay in bed and I won't cease formation flying or aerobatic flying as I derive a great deal of pleasure from both. I plan each event with care and stay within my capabilities and those of my RV-8.
Click to expand...

I believe that you will probably be around for a long time and you will have a big smile on your face at the same time. Most of staying alive in aviation involves showing good judgement. Your last sentence should be the credo of all pilots. :)
 
so so picture in better days

if you want to see a so so picture of the lost plane and you don't mind spending some time getting to it...

it's the one with the solid blue tai in between the wht and red HR2 and HR3.

go to here and then go to a gallery way down on the left side entitled "bakersfield bunch june 3, 2006"

www.pbase.com/mark2nite

the picture is about thirty down the column and the number is 108 jpg.

and as I said a so so far away shot.

I wonder how much total time the pilot- John had spending his whole career flying Dr. Armand Hammer OXY around the world in several different aircraft;

then retiring building the HR2 and flying it 3 -- 7 days a week?
 
If you fly like an idiot you are probably ten times more likely to die than if you are careful and well trained. I was too tired to work on the plane the other night so I read the entire 2006 Prelim. crash reports. If you take out the running out of fuel, flying in to IMC when not trained, flying a plane with known problems, low level acro (without training), and any commercial flights you find that flying is extremely safe. I feel a thousand times safer flying to Florida from Savannah than I do driving down I-95 and I-4. People drive like they are at a NASCAR event.
 
OK, let's go through ALL the reports...

I guess I will have to cease posting on VAF. Sorry, I really didn't mean to alienate anyone.

I did however just now take the time to read through every single probable cause report of RV fatal accidents in the NTSB database. I don't claim to offer a scientific analysis but here is how I count up the numbers.

1) Sadly, 138 people have died in RV accidents. One is too many.

2) If I counted correctly, there have been 104 fatal accidents of RVs since 1980.

3) The Vans webpage says 4914 have been completed. That number has risen dramatically in the past year.

I went through and tried to catagorize the situations (not necessarily the causes!) that were involved in the accidents. If you disagree, then please go to the database and look and count for yourself. Here is my take on the numbers:

15 fatal accidents involved the pilot performing low aerobatics.

6 involved high aerobatics above 3000 feet AGL (wings fold up after looping, etc).

7 involved flying into known bad weather; of these two involved formation flight as well.

10 involved formation flying; two of these involved formation aerobatics and a midair collision.

12 involved some sort of take off spin/stall usually from an engine out.

7 involved some sort of intentional low flight (under 500 AGL)

2 involved the canopy blowing open.

5 seemed to be a landing stall.

5 seemed to be avoidable fuel starvation.

5 inflight collisions (not formation flight related).

1 ground accident (at Osh Kosh this year).

12 seemed to be inflight mechanical failures

2 appearred from the NTSB wording to be possible suicides.

and the rest I would judge as not obvious to me what happened from the NTSB report.

You look at these and decide for yourself which behaviors should be avoided. I have my opinions and I have decided which things I am going to avoid for myself. Yes I will fly my RV - but I am going to think long and hard about how to avoid the most avoidable mistakes.

Many of the accidents resulted from poor ADM which can happen in any airplane - a person unwilling to refuel an RV when it needs it is probably unwilling to refuel a Cessna when it needs it. But what about putting your airplane in close proximity to another airplane and then following it into IMC? What about being so enthralled by aerobatics that you think you should do it next to a wall of rock in New Mexico? Or being so taken by the excitement of RVing that you are part of a six airplane group that wants to fly a three airplane vs three airplane head to head stunt at an airshow?

When I got started into RV construction I took the EAA RV construction seminar in LA. I can't remember the old Canadian gentleman's name (great guy - really knew his stuff!) but I was impressed at the body count - how many stories he had about people he knew who had died flying. Way too many!

Flying is a great hobby, but I wish to do it with eyes wide open to the facts.

Best wishes for all,

JCB
 
OldAndBold said:
I guess I will have to cease posting on VAF. Sorry, I really didn't mean to alienate anyone.......

.........Flying is a great hobby, but I wish to do it with eyes wide open to the facts.

Best wishes for all,

JCB
Click to expand...

Hey John, don't go away. You raise issues that are important. Not everyone is qualified to do some of the things they do and maybe your ringing the bell on it will do some good - it just might save a life.

On the other hand, lots of guys are qualified to fly formation and aerobatics, do it quite well and safely. We all have a safe box and need to know what it is.

Good luck with your -7. You will love flying it.

dd
RV-7A
Subby H6
 
Good Research...

JCB,

I don't disagree at all with each person making their own choices and decisions on how much risk they are willing to take - in fact, that is an essential part of the freedom of flying in my book. I am pretty conservative by many standards...and others consider me more daring I suppose.

I appreciate you breaking down the RV accidents like you did - I have wanted to do that myself but hadn't found the time. Just reading through a list of causes is a good safety refresher for people - the ones that take those lessons to heart are the better for it.

The only real disagreement I have with your line of reasoning is that you are looking at RV's in a vacuum. If your contention is that certain activities are dangerous in any type of plane, then you should be looking at a cross-section of the GA fleet. If your contention is that these activities are MORE dangerous in RV's than in other aircraft, then you need to COMPARE the accident rates (not counts - rates) to other types in the GA fleet. Otherwise, the numbers themselves are fairly meaningless. But the listing of things that get people killed is good - if only to make us all pause and think...

Paul
 
Hey JCB,

I told you there'd be flames. Don't sweat it though; we're all grown ups and can take some knocks. Regarding your thoughts on acro and formation, I've gotta disagree some. All of these things can be done without significant increase in risk by getting good training and exercising sound judgement. I would suggest that you take at least one intro acro lesson from a qualified instructor before you cement your opinion.

Regarding comparisons to driving, getting out of bed, etc., I think these are a bit off. A better comparison would be things like skiing, scuba diving, mountain biking, rock climbing, etc. These activities also kill people every year and it's almost always the result of somebody doing something stupid without proper training/equipment.

I've yet to fly my project, but I have heard folks say that these planes fly so well that they make you think you're better than you really are: plenty of extra power, minimal adverse yaw, great control harmony and so on make a guy feel like Buck Rogers. Next thing you know he's doing rolls 100 feet off the ground or, as in the case you cited, doing formation acro with no plan or radios!!

I'm sure the fact that you're a new parent (HUGE CONGRATS!) has got you thinking a bit more carefully about self preservation, but try not to overthink it. Build/fly your plane inside your comfort zone (which will expand with training/experience), keep your ego in check, and you'll live to be one of those old geezer pilots we all love to see.
 
szicree said:
Hey JCB,

I told you there'd be flames. Don't sweat it though; we're all grown ups and can take some knocks. Regarding your thoughts on acro and formation, I've gotta disagree some. All of these things can be done without significant increase in risk by getting good training and exercising sound judgement. I would suggest that you take at least one intro acro lesson from a qualified instructor before you cement your opinion...

... but try not to overthink it. Build/fly your plane inside your comfort zone (which will expand with training/experience), keep your ego in check, and you'll live to be one of those old geezer pilots we all love to see.
Click to expand...

I do intend to take emergency maneuver training when I get back to San Jose someday. But it will be for knowing how to recover from an upset or an unintended spin - for increasing my odds of survival, not for kicks.

People think they can be trained well enough to be doing low level aerobatic stunts. How does one quantify "well enough"? One of the saddest things I read about this year in aviation was the death of Nancy Lynn. She was that cute older woman pilot who appearred on commercials on the Discovery channel. As you may know, she died recently performing her show doing low level stunts in her Extra. If anyone was trained "well enough" to be doing this, it would be her. She had been doing this stuff for years - perhaps thousands of times. But just one wrong judgement - just one - one time did her in.

So how good is your aerobatic training? As good as hers?

And what about that group that did the 3 on 3 head on maneuver? Were they considered to be trained adequately before the event? I don't know. Were the thrills worth the outcome? How about a little less thrill and a lot more routine flying instead?

I never did get to work on the empennage today...
 
OldAndBold said:
But it will be for knowing how to recover from an upset or an unintended spin - for increasing my odds of survival, not for kicks....

How about a little less thrill and a lot more routine flying instead?
Click to expand...

I think you might be overlooking one thing: Many of us fly just for the kicks. I will certainly use my plane to get places, but mostly it's for fun. Concerning airshow aerobatics, I don't think anybody on here is claiming to be as skilled as Nancy Lynn, Sean Tucker, et al, but I also don't think anyone on here is performing manuevers that are evenly remotely close to the routines performed by these pros. A loop or roll at altitude is absolutely no big deal if you're trained. I think you've got some idea that it's this wild, edge-of-control thing, and it just isn't that way at all. To each his own I say.
 
Favorite quote

"If you are in motion, you are at risk. If you are not in motion, you are dead."

Try to keep the risk/reward issue in your comfort zone and have fun.

John Clark
RV8 N18U
KSBA
 
Old and Bold,

Your concern for safety is commendable but you need to go about influencing your pears in a positive way by testifying what you have learned and how you have taken these lessons to heart and what you plan to do for yourself, and let others choose there path for themselves. Rather what you did was come on hear as a 200 hour pilot and tell us that no one hear or possibly any one any where is qualified to perform aerobatics and or formation flight, I only have 500 or so hours and have learned a lot about what is possible in the last 300 hours and still have a lot to learn but I do know what the word qualified means, I don?t think you do. Qualified does not mean that a person cant make a mistake but rather that he or she is proficient and comfortable at the given task, the only way to become qualified is to practice and survive your mistakes and learn from them, as well as learning from mistakes made by others, this is the same for driving a car, riding a bike, or even flying an airplane, including aerobatics.

There are many pilots hear that are qualified to do aerobatics and even many that are qualifies to do some aerobatics low level. I was instructed through PPL and then on to aerobatics by an old pilot who served in three wars beginning with WW2 and retired from the Air Force with over 30,000 logged flight hours, many doing aerobatics, IMC and formation and teaching others how to do the same, looks like he will die of old age and be buried at Arlington as a war hero, not to soon I hope. Only a small % of GA pilots die in airplanes, if my instructor (Boyd Williamson) could survive all that he did then I surly have a good chance to survive some loops and rolls in a craft designed to do loops and rolls, these maneuvers are not difficult to do well and done with for-thought and caution add very little risk but make you a better more complete pilot.
 
Projected fears

I tend to suspect that pilots who habitually express concern about everybody else's safety are in fact really anxious about their own safety.

Often they're older pilots with relatively few hours. Because they feel apprehensive about their own skills and safety they project their concern on to others.

Shakespeare said: The world is neither good nor bad but thinking makes it so. Perhaps that could be modified to state: The world is neither safe nor unsafe but thinking makes it so. :rolleyes:

I believe that if you build an RV in the UK you cannot fly at night, you cannot fly IFR, you cannot do aerobatics, and you cannot even fly legally over any built-up areas. They may or may not have a lower fatality rate but they certainly risk being bored to death. :)
 
A coward can sit in his house and criticize a pilot for flying into the mountain in fog, but I would rather by far, die on a mountainside than in bed. What kind of man would live where there is no daring? And is life so dear that we should blame men for dying in adventure? Is there a better way to die?

Charles Lindbergh
 
Amen

Captain Avgas said:
I believe that if you build an RV in the UK you cannot fly at night, you cannot fly IFR, you cannot do aerobatics, and you cannot even fly legally over any built-up areas. They may or may not have a lower fatality rate but they certainly risk being bored to death. :)
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I can't stand this anymore. I can't count how many times I was accused of having a death-wish because I fly under powerlines routinely and dodge trees on almost every swath, by inches. Mr Old/Bold, I'm in my 37th season of Ag work and suppose I look stupid and/or dumb for doing what I do but I can assure you that what Captain Avgas said, applies to a lot of us.....there's no boredom and if I buy the farm at 140 MPH killing bugs so you guys can eat good, cheap food, so be it.

Kindly don't paint with such a broad brush. It has always been different strokes for different folks. If you want to always keep the shiny side up and I don't, don't knock me for it. You do your thing and I'll do mine.

I've done a lot of low level aerobatics in my younger days in a Cassutt that I built, including rolls on takeoff and cuban eights to ground level but I learned them up high. Yes, there's a method to the madness......try it, you might like it... :D
 
OldAndBold said:
I do intend to take emergency maneuver training when I get back to San Jose someday. But it will be for knowing how to recover from an upset or an unintended spin - for increasing my odds of survival, not for kicks.
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I recommend Jim Gray at Amelia Reed. They have plenty of 150Hp Citabrias and Super Decathalons to choose from.
 
Please remember how this thread started...

Please remember how this thread started. Somone posted a link to an NTSB accident report which described the death of a Rocket pilot - who died while performing aerobatics.

I think it is safe to say that if he had not been performing aerobatics he'd be alive today, and his family would be enjoying this Christmas with him rather than thinking of it as their first Christmas without their Dad / Grandpa / Husband / Brother. By the way, if you wish to hear yet another silly thing I won't do, I won't fly around Christmas either, to avoid just the possibility that I could ruin Christmas for my family for the rest of their lives. I can wait a few days and go out to fly next week instead.

"I tend to suspect that pilots who habitually express concern about everybody else's safety are in fact really anxious about their own safety."

Yep, I am concerned about my safety. You hit it right on the head there. And so was my CFI (well the last two of the three anyhow). So are most CFIs and the FAA too. I am pretty sure that If I projected anything less than a serious concern for safety when I took my PPL checkride the DPE would have failed me.

"And is life so dear that we should blame men for dying in adventure?"

Yes, life is so dear that we should blame someone for foolishly wasting it. I am suprised that Charles Lindburgh would have said such a thing. Just because he's famous doesn't mean everything he said was a nugget of gold.

Am I a coward? Perhaps - if being a coward says I would avoid avoidable risks by forgoeing a small pleasure. However, I spent the early part of my life as a police officer. The risks of getting killed (according to FBI statistics back then) worked out to about one in a thousand per year. There were all sorts of risks I wouldn't take then either - avoidable risks, risks that all cops knew better than to take. But I took the overall risk of being a cop because there was a good reason to do so - people needed me out on the streets confronting criminals. Does anyone really need me out there performing aerobatics?

Is there a place for risky flying? Sure. I would happily work as a medevac helicopter pilot if I could get the work - people would need me to take those risks in order to save lives. Would I go fight in Iraq as a pilot? Sure, but I don't think I could get the job. But would I go work as an airshow pilot? Nope, no way, not worth the risks; no one needs me to do that and I can provide for my family better by any number of other jobs.

Folks, I am an avionics engineer by trade. I am supposed to be thinking about flight safety day in and day out. I am supposed to be thinking about how I can engineer a safer airplane. Safety, safety. safety.

The Airbus aircraft have a fly by wire system of controlling the airplane. It will specifically prevent the pilot from banking the airplane more than 67 degrees - you can't roll an Airbus. Makes for a boring airplane. But it was designed that way to keep it safely upright. The B-52 of course does not have such a safety feature and I can point you to the video of the B-52 that crashed at Fairchild AFB when its commander tried to do a 90 bank turn from base to final. He loved exciting flying too - and he killed two other people with him when he went.
 
If the Airbus concept is so good, then why do things like this happen?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxP8LwSArYA

There are a lot of us at the airlines who do not buy into the Airbus concept. There are times when I want a well trained human that can act instantly to do the right thing. There are hundreds of factors that go into a decision to buy a particular aircraft but to this day my airline doesn't have any scarebus.
 
Rick6a said:
A coward can sit in his house and criticize a pilot for flying into the mountain in fog, but I would rather by far, die on a mountainside than in bed. What kind of man would live where there is no daring? And is life so dear that we should blame men for dying in adventure? Is there a better way to die?

Charles Lindbergh
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"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."


Teddy Roosevelt
 
...for a WORTHY cause...

N395V said:
"

... who spends himself for a worthy cause..."


Teddy Roosevelt
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I am sorry Milt, I can't resist this one.

How many of your patients think they are taking a good risk with their lifestyles that lead them to diabetes, heart disease and stroke?

BTW, I don't do a good job at avoiding these particular risks myself. I wish I did.
 
OldAndBold said:
The Airbus aircraft have a fly by wire system of controlling the airplane. It will specifically prevent the pilot from banking the airplane more than 67 degrees - you can't roll an Airbus.
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Great - so we've built an airplane that will lock out pilot commands during an uncommanded turbulence upset. That's just the airplane I want to fly on, you betcha. What happens when the gyro equipment used to determine that absolute 67 degree bank goes haywire and starts drifting? Is it safe then? As safe as direct aileron control with a competent live warm human at the other end?

Safety is attained by knowledge and training - not by trying to "outengineer" the machine. You can't take away the risk of leaving the ground by limiting the number of tools the pilot has at his disposal to correct a bad situation - this will only increase the risk. There is absolutely no valid reason (IMHO) to hamstring the pilot by reducing his options when the real world outside his window is no longer matching the piece of paper the "safety engineer" had on his desk. That's why aviation has "pilots" and not "drivers". There is a higher standard required, and no amount of feel-good safety engineering can take the place of a properly trained and qualified PILOT.

If you're so worried about dying that you become afraid to live, you're already dead. Go home, crawl in bed, and don't ever get out.
 
Old and Bold,

I've got friends who fly a lot more conservatively than me. I also have friends whom I fly a WHOLE lot more conservative than. I'm sure your intentions are honorable, but each of us must assess his own level of risk/reward.

Who's to say who is "right" and who is "wrong". A non-pilot could just as easily criticize you (and your willingness to make your family suffer loss) for even getting in a small airplane. Someone else might point at the NTSB database and declare all general aviation a suicidal hobby.

I understand where you're coming from, but you just can't expect others to see things exactly the same way as you do.
 
I didn't engineer the Airbus - but I wish I had

Airguy: "Great - so we've built an airplane that will lock out pilot commands during an uncommanded turbulence upset. That's just the airplane I want to fly on, you betcha. What happens when the gyro equipment used to determine that absolute 67 degree bank goes haywire and starts drifting? Is it safe then? As safe as direct aileron control with a competent live warm human at the other end?"

Probably way safer.

I didn't engineer the Airbus. But I wish I had been on the team - it is a magnificent airplane.

I am sure that the tradeoff studies were made between (for example) the risks of a highly qualified airline captain taking control of the airplane and sending it into a disasterous situation versus the danger of all three of the triple redundant flight control systems failing at the same time.

And, I am sure that when they did the design engineering of that airplane that the most highly qualified airline captains were included in the design and specification. The design of the airplane would have had to been driven by airline/pilot needs.
 
share your sentiments

i read in aopa this week ADVERTISEMENT
that 70% of the people that start flight training quit
20 % that get the license never fly again
well that leaves 10 % of us that continue to learn.

people always compare flying to driving, i think what scares most people (like you and me) is driving ( while more dangerous by far) you dont have the minute or two of holy **** im gonna die. speakin of flight into imc or formation collision or structural cotastrophie.

all of these could happen, however remote these are when you cosider the other factors such as, 42,636 people died in car crashes in the U.S. last year. That's fewer than the 42,884 who died in 2003.(cnn)

dont obsess over the people out there that do dangerous stuff. just do what makes you comfortable and happy. really :rolleyes: what can you do anyway? other than **** everybody off. :eek:


FLYING CAN KILL YOU, BUT SO CAN ANYTHING ELSE. ESPECIALLY ALL THOSE PARTIALLY HYDROGENATED FOOD YOU EAT. :D
 
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Hopefully Airbus has corrected their rudder issues. Any fly by wire plane that lets you snap the rudder off is a dangerous plane. A pilot should be able to take control of a plane away from a computer and have FULL control of the plane.
 
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