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David-aviator

Well Known Member
Statistically, eventually, everyone's number is up flying an airplane.

I don't know what those statistics are but be it one or two life times, the events of this week end sure are food for thought. (an air show T-28 was also lost today - the NTSB fatalities for the month of August came in at 79, which is a typical month)

I flew 2.6 hours today. In one instant, the day nearly ended in a fire ball when a Bonanza appeared out of no where at 11 oclock, level, in a right turn. I pushed the stick forward and missed him by several hundred feet. I don't think he saw me as his angle of bank never changed as he went by. We fly with a very thin margin and the older you get, the more one wonders just how long luck will hold up.

This evening I am thinking about hanging it up and spending more time with my wife and taking care of the garden. To end a flying career in a ball of flame or auguring straight in with body parts flying in very direction is not the way I want to check out.

Maybe things will look better in a couple days, I've been through these funks before.
 
David-aviator said:
To end a flying career in a ball of flame or auguring straight in with body parts flying in very direction is not the way I want to check out.
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I would rather be a fireball in the sky than living in a hospice hotel with a diaper on.



.
 
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Geico266 said:
I would rather be a fireball in the sky than living in a hospice hotel with a diaper on.
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I agree with this statement! Let me go doing what I like! I understand funks! Im in one right now too! But we ust mOve forward! Enjoy life as it was the last day in earth! Smile! Laugh, do no harm and make sure you leave a good impression and make a difference!
 
I'll take the fire ball

I watched my dad die of alzhiemers. Give me the fire ball. Go out doing what you love.
 
David-aviator said:
I flew 2.6 hours today. In one instant, the day nearly ended in a fire ball when a Bonanza appeared out of no where at 11 oclock, level, in a right turn. I pushed the stick forward and missed him by several hundred feet. I don't think he saw me as his angle of bank never changed as he went by. We fly with a very thin margin and the older you get, the more one wonders just how long luck will hold up.
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I've had similar incidents like this occur to me and yes... it scares the **** out of you! HOWEVER... these are the things that the FAA are trying to eliminate through the use of technology. Hopefully when ADS-B and/or similar type technologies become standard in ALL aircraft, these close calls will become less frequent :)
 
flynwest said:
I watched my dad die of alzhiemers. Give me the fire ball. Go out doing what you love.
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"All of us will die, very few of us will have lived."

I am certainly not saying live dangerously or recklessly, but live life to the fullest and don't worry about "what if's".

David-aviator said:
Statistically, eventually, everyone's number is up flying an airplane.
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Dave, not sure I agree with you on the statisical part, but I understand your feeling about close calls. It spooks you for a while then you have to make a decision about flying. If it bothers you take a break, nothing wrong with that. They call it "standing down" in the military. It means take time to re-assess the proceedures, attitudes, training, equipment, ect. Maybe you should stand down for a while. A good pilot knows when it is time.
 
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No man, don't do it. Your new attitude will help make you safer (statistically). Anyway its not you, its those #%& Bonanza drivers. They're always out to get you. I had one land between my legs @ 100 feet on takeoff.
 
I thought my time was up...........in that split second before impact with a leaping deer at 65 mph on my motorcycle last year. In the following few seconds, which seemed much longer, my only thoughts were of deceleration. When would the world stop tumbling around? I had been immediately ejected from the cycle onto the highway. Yet, there was no sense of pain. Just a sense of time slowing down. I wasn't even thinking of the consequences. Just wondering when it would stop! Yet, 50 yards of highway (according to the Highway patrol), is only a few seconds at best.
I could swear, it was ten times that long.

In the end, I had broken bones all over my left side. Severe road rash everywhere..........as I wasn't wearing leathers, but did have a full face helmet on.

These day's, I'm just not so afraid of dying anymore. There are much worse ways of dying, than quickly in an airplane. If it isn't quick, then it's no different than a possible auto accident, etc. Of course, I'd still like to avoid tragedy.........as much as possible.

L.Adamson
 
I'm thinking I should quit watching TV, reading the news, and really scale back reading some of the forums I keep up with (like this one) and carry on being happy and productive, doing the things I like to do instead of trying to find reasons why I shouldn't do the things I do.
 
Let's just say it was a really close call...........

I had an aircraft pass in front of me within 100 feet. He came up from my right, under my wing and crossed 90* from my path. I was doing 135 mph level. He was in a climb and if he had looked out his window he would have noticed me.

When someone comes at you from your blind side, You don't have a chance. I watched him fly to a local airport.............. It was all I could to do to JUST fly home and let it pass.

Is there such a thing as sky rage? Growing up in a small town, I don't like this thing called population.
 
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rocketbob said:
I'm thinking I should quit watching TV, reading the news, and really scale back reading some of the forums I keep up with (like this one) and carry on being happy and productive, doing the things I like to do instead of trying to find reasons why I shouldn't do the things I do.
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I took the TV set out of the house about 12 years ago, and don't miss it at all. Plenty of other ways to get any news that I'm interested in, and better entertainment available as well.

Ditch the TV: you will love it!
 
PCHunt said:
I took the TV set out of the house about 12 years ago, and don't miss it at all. Plenty of other ways to get any news that I'm interested in, and better entertainment available as well.

Ditch the TV: you will love it!
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I like the History and Discovery channels.........too much.
 
Take a break

David,
Take some time off and see how much you miss it. You will get your answer one way or the other.
I'm always amused by the comment "he died doing what he loved". A person may love flying but they undoubtedly don't care much for crashing and it's always the latter that kills you.
 
gasman said:
What is with Bonanza drivers??
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Not pointing any specific fingers but I can see this devolving into Bonanza bashing not too far from the recent thread on AOPA that was RV bashing.

My explanation is that there are a lot of Bonanzas out there, just like there are RVs, and there are bound to be a certain percentage of lousy/inattentive/[your favorite negative descriptor here] pilots in a group this big.

cheers,
greg
 
Crashing

I've been through these funks before, too. Saw a guy split-S into the ground right in front of me. I didn't go back to the airport for months. A surprising number of airport friends have died in light airplanes over the years, most recently last October. It always bums me out. And those few near mid-airs always had me thinking that maybe I should stick to my knitting and stay out of airplanes. Well, I always go back. But one should never forget that an airplane, this airplane right here today, could kill you.
 
Passing on

I was (practically speaking) the last D.O.M. for Hudson Air service in Talkeetna when Jay was diagnosed with cancer. He died within a year. He told me "I did it, 10,000 hours and didn't die in an airplane!" He landed me on a glacier to fix a broke plane once on a cloudy day, and it really scared me. So many times he sent buisness elsewhere due to weather. If the customers were really pushy, out came the grusome photos. I also saw my first full circle rainbow while working for him.
I'd like time to be at peace. Perhaps it's best to live in peace as best we can if something sudden happens.

"Your job is to save my life and save me money" Jay Hudson to me my first week working for him.
 
Greg Arehart said:
Not pointing any specific fingers but I can see this devolving into Bonanza bashing not too far from the recent thread on AOPA that was RV bashing.

My explanation is that there are a lot of Bonanzas out there, just like there are RVs, and there are bound to be a certain percentage of lousy/inattentive/[your favorite negative descriptor here] pilots in a group this big.

cheers,
greg
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I've gotta agree folks - PLEASE, let's not even joke about bashing other type of airplane pilots. There was way too much furious energy used up by too many pilots here and on other sites not long ago, and it would be ridiculous for us to make the same mistake.

Dave has an interesting and serious topic - and his encounter could have just as easily have been with another RV- I had one much like it a week or so on a short hop to another field for fuel. Yup - it was a -6A, and his rivet lines could have been straighter....need I say more?
 
Where do you want to die?

None of us are getting out of this thing alive. If you spend your life on the couch, your going to die on the couch. Not me.

As far as the Bonanza's, please don't forget that there are plenty of Bonanza "drivers" on this forum, including me. We work just as hard at flying safely as any other group. Lets please not generalize. Stuff happens.

Dave.....We met at the beer tent at Oshkosh. You seem like you're having too much fun doing this aviation stuff to stop.
 
Well

Dave I can understand some of what you are going through. I had a bad accident in my aircraft a bit over a year ago and I got out of the wreck with some injuries while the plane was written off. I had many emotions ranging from anger, guilt and fear at different times as I replayed the whole thing endlessly. The what if's were the worst as I imagined how I could have been killed if this or that had happened during the crash. After a while I realized that there are many what if's in life and you just need to live your life and accept that there are some risks, learn from those you experience and realize you cant change the past.

Three months after the accident I bought an RV6A and have enjoyed flying that for the last year. Surprisingly I did not have any concerns when I went back flying apart from being far more aware and attentive to details.

So accept that there is some risk and be a defensive pilot allowing for others mistakes. Also the two terrible accidents over the weekend were from activities that have a very high risk compared to our normal flying.
 
Are you going to give up driving?

I did a quick Google and came up with the following statistics. As all statistics go, you can use them to prove anything you want to prove.

Some statistics on general aviation flying vs. driving:
Death rate per 100,000 hours flown: 1.18
The chance of dying in a crash each year of flying (100 hours of flying): 0.118% (or 1 in 847)
Lifetime flying time=500, then chance of dying is 0.0059% or 1 in 170
1 in 170 pilots that fly 500 hours in a lifetime will die, which is about half the death rate of driving over a lifetime. If a pilot flies 847 hours in a lifetime, their death rate is equal to dying in a car crash. My log book shows 835 hours

Dying in a car crash: What are the chances of dying in a car accident
In a car, 1 person dies per 57,803,468 miles traveled. At an average speed of 50 miles per hour, that's 1,156,069 hours of driving time per death, thus General Aviation flying is about 11 times more dangerous than driving, hour-to-hour traveled.
However, it takes approximately 1/3 the travel time to fly, so flying is rather than driving to a destination is 3.67 times more dangerous than driving.

Personally, I reduce my flying risk a lot more then I reduce my driving risk. I tend to "push the envelop" more when I drive (speeding, F1 lane changes, out at rush hour and all weather, power sliding in the snow, etc) but never do when flying (sunny, day VFR flying at slow, sleepy airports, no high speed passes, no low altitude manuvers, detailed conditional inspections, and day long oil changes).

With currently being down from flying for a year for a second time in the last 5 years due to medical, I have definately thought of not flying again. But then that is not who I am. I will fly until the day I can not drive any longer.
 
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Over the years, I've absorbed a handful of axims that help me stay happy and at peace with my life. Some contradict others. That's life.

About 10 years ago I was out on my motorcycle (one of the enjoyably fast, flick turns, astounding acceleration / deceleration types). I made it about 5 miles out and nothing felt right. I turned around and headed home. Sighing 3 months, I had sold the bike.

I no longer loved it. I didn't give me the sence of "oneness".

I don't miss the motorcycle. I still find myself looking at them as they roll down the highway and backroads. But I remember that odd feeling and am comfortable and at peace with my decision. There are so many things I enjoy in life.

If a day comes when I no longer love flying; no longer feel "right" with the airplane, I'll park the plane in the hangar. I'll fill the void with something that makes me happy.
 
Perhaps it is time?

I have followed your posts for a long time and you are far too experienced and mature for me to disrespect your wisdom. You started flying a long time ago and the risk:reward ratio is probably influenced by the shrinking number on the right as much as the expanding number on the left. If the thrill is gone it makes no sense to keep pushing yourself to participate in an activity you know is risky. I fully understand wanting to extend the joy of life with your wife and garden.

Bob Axsom
 
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rocketbob said:
I'm thinking I should quit watching TV, reading the news, and really scale back reading some of the forums I keep up with (like this one) and carry on being happy and productive, doing the things I like to do instead of trying to find reasons why I shouldn't do the things I do.
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Rosie and I made a conscious decision about two years ago to not watch TV news, and not read the newspaper on a regular basis. You would not believe what a stress reliever it has been. Some would call it hiding in the sand, I call it maintaining sanity. I spend every hour I can with her and my kids, then add in life's spice - flying, motorcycle, scuba diving.
 
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pmnewlon said:
Rosie and I made a conscious decision about two years ago to not watch TV news, and not read the newspaper on a regular basis. You would not believe what a stress reliever it has been. Some would call it hiding in the sand, I call it maintaining sanity.
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I get the same comment of "head in the sand" when I comment that I have not watch local or national news nor read a newspaper in over 10 years. Do not miss it at all and I feel I know all I need to know and have a better overall attitude towards the world, not tainted by all the negativness the news brings.
 
rocketbob said:
I'm thinking I should quit watching TV, reading the news, and really scale back reading some of the forums I keep up with (like this one) and carry on being happy and productive, doing the things I like to do instead of trying to find reasons why I shouldn't do the things I do.
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Amen Bob,

I stopped watching and reading the news on a regular basis shortly after 911. I think my heartburn stopped shortly after that!
 
shamer said:
I'm always amused by the comment "he died doing what he loved".
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This, I think, is one of the stupidest statements often made in the English language.

I love to eat.

Dying while eating is the last thing on earth I want to die as a result of.
 
There's all types of flying. So many varied types that you really can't lump them together.

The accident Friday has absolutely nothing to do with my flying. Any way shape or form. The same with the T-28.

I'm reminded of last Sunday - I've ridden motorcycles for 30 years, and still ride daily. A woman came up to me at church and told me I needed to quit, for the sake of my kids. Her son had died three years ago on a motorcycle.

But her son was nineteen, owned a modified sportbike and belonged to a local racing club. He died at over 100 mph on a twisty road, a single-vehicle accident. Absolutely nothing to do with me putting down to the YMCA every morning on my Shadow.
 
I would like to post an excerpt from an email that Mike Thompson sent in reply to Doug losing his best friend Dave Spears to an accident 10 years ago. This portion of the email sums it up for me.

"I know that my chances are best to live to an old age if I sell this project and quit flying. (I also know I would have to take a bus to work and do a hundred other things to ensure I die in bed an old man)... but I choose not to. The attraction is too strong, the reward is too great.

I will do the best I can, no man can do more. I will build carefully and fly carefully and if my turn comes while in the air, so be it..."
 
L.Adamson said:
I like the History and Discovery channels.........too much.
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Netflix streaming is stocked full of History and Discovery channel documentaries. Combine that with an antenna to get free over-the-air hi-def (I usually only watch TV for big events like big news items, etc) and you are set. Haven't had cable or satellite in quite a while and don't miss it one bit!
 
WE all get in a funk at times-

I've been in one since June. I dont own a plane, or have a license. I do, however, help alot of you achieve your goal of flying your own plane. I do get to fly in some that I have had a hand in building.
I have thought about the possiblity of something happening while flying, and it bothers me. When that happens, I remember some things my father told me. He was a Marine EOD officer (Explosive Ordance Disposal). Paraphrased, he said that prior preparation prevents -----------poor performance. I guess he knew what he was talking about. We can all prepare, and be real trained.
Be viligent, and safe. But above all, keep doing things that you love.
Tom
 
Yes, you can't help but "loose your steam" at times in aviation. All the recent crashes have made me take a second look at what I am doing. Even yesterday I received news that a PT-26 that I was asked to become flight instructor and A&P on, crashed a couple of days ago (engine failed, plane totaled, pilot survived). I had already done some A&P work on the plane and can't help but feel involved in a negative way. But what can you do, give up on aviation. I suppose if I tallied up all my influences, I supposed I done more for good than bad. Perhaps mine own involvement has reduced the total amount of tragedy. Maybe I am winning in the balance. At least I hope so. People are going to fly, I am trying to make them safe when they do it.
 
Reflecting From Another Angle

So if you're dead...what do you care how you died. Your family wants you around as long as possible. If your values place them anywhere near the top, you think twice before taking personal risks just because its gives you the rush you think you deserve. Sometimes it takes more courage to wear the diaper than to make your loved ones live without you. Just another "reflection".
 
Second Hand Lions

Very interesting comments all. You NEED to watch the movie ?Second Hand Lions? a very good family movie, with a little aviation, that plays a very important roll. My wife and I often joke, that that is our retirement plan?..only I?m not sure either one of us is joking.
 
"He died doing what he loved"

After watching many people die of long drawn out battles, I am for dieing in a fireball doing what I love. The alternative statement, "he died in a long and painful battle doing what he absolutely hated" is not for me. I have seen this happen. When your son is changing your diapers, tell me how you feel about your dignity and that living is the most important thing.
Sit on the couch watching TV if that is what you want. But I wil fly.

I bought a plane because I watched too many people lose their medicals or die without completing their dream. I made the choice live life.

But I also gave up motorcycles cause IMO, "I am too dangerous on them".
 
In the words of the late "Don Sheldon"......(An Alaskan Bushpilot who's story is told in Jim Griener's book "Wager With The Wind" )..." I always fly a liitle bit scared". Interesting thought, and I think he was on to something. It makes us more carefull, and vigilant. Hope you get your passion back soon.
 
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Geico266 said:
I would rather be a fireball in the sky than living in a hospice hotel with a diaper on.
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DITTO for me. My goal is not to take someone else with me.

Or...

I would like to dye in my sleep, like my Grandfather. Not screaming in terror like his passengers.

Or...

When I'm 85, shot in the butt by a jealous husband while climbing out a window.
 
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David-aviator said:
Statistically, eventually, everyone's number is up flying an airplane.
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Nope. As a younger man I had the pleasure of flying and working with Ed Long. You can find Ed listed in Guinness as the world's highest time pilot. Ed had two career engine failures and zero crashes, despite flying most of his hours at 200 feet or less every day.

In one instant, the day nearly ended in a fire ball when a Bonanza appeared out of no where at 11 oclock, level, in a right turn. I pushed the stick forward and missed him by several hundred feet.
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You were doing what you should have been doing (flying eyes out) and there was no collision. Your "almost disaster" is the sort of thing I'd expect from the sensational media, not an experienced pilot.

Right now, people with limited skills are missing each other by less than three feet, at head-on closing rates between 50 to 150 mph. It's called "driving".
 
Life is a series of choices

After losing my brother in an RV-6 on a sunny Sunday lunch flight I thought long and hard about my future in the sky.

I came up with:
Life is a series of choices. Some choices I make raise risk factors, (flying at all, flying formation, driving a mountain road 34 miles a day to and from work).
If I make good choices I lower my risk factor, (carefully maintaining my plane, training regularly, making good choices concerning weather, who I fly with, my physical and mental health, and ALWAYS tightening my seat beats).

I do not want to die in an airplane. I hope I do not die in such a way others say, "She made a bad choice when she ....". I hope to be the old lady in the rocking chair on the porch at the airpark, with her grandchildren and great grandchildren flying in to take Grandma up to see the trees from above.

My brother couldn't prevent his engine from quitting just after takeoff on that sunny Sunday, but he could have most likely walked away had he tightened his belts. It's the simple choices that can make all the difference.

I choose to fly.
 
I agree with RocketBob. I love flying, amongst other things. But that doesn't mean that dying while doing any of them is a preferred way to go. Actually, dying isn't preffered at all, but right now none of us get a choice about that. We can elect to stay at home in bed all day and think that will make us safe, and a tornado/earthquake/falling tree you-get-the idea can change that perception pretty quickly. The point is to enjoy life the way YOU want to, but at least do go and enjoy it.
I've told Carol that IF I happen to die in an airplane event she is to smack anyone who says I died loving what I was doing! I may enjoy flying, but I certainly doubt I would enjoy dying while doing it. :)
VIc
 
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Geico266 said:
I would rather be a fireball in the sky than living in a hospice hotel with a diaper on.



.
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Too funny.....LOL! I like this one! ;)


BTW, I flew AH-1S "Cobra's" in the US Army back in the day, so flying in helicopters all the time already burned out of my system any reflections of dying in an aircraft. Helicopters are very unforgiving, and we knew at about any moment we would be a brick if anything serious went wrong mechanically. All that NOE flying and NVG flying.....not sure how many trees I have trimmed in my days.....LOL! :D

It is driving in cars here in TX, were half the timid and docile masses are texting while driving, that has me most worried on a day to day basis. :eek:
 
Scares

I've had a few scares in airplanes from electrical fire to an engine failure and bird strikes. There was one that really got me thinking. A deer ran out on a runway while I was accelerating past V1 and rotating in a Citation (I was alone). The instances that are out of your control are the ones that freak me out. I don't know how I missed the deer and the tail from hitting the runway. I called my wife and said, "you almost lost your husband today." This happened at a fenced airport. I love flying and could never think of giving it up unless I thought I put others in harms way. My wife insisted that I install a pricey TAS for my RV10 to mitigate some of the risk out of my control. At the time I thought it was too expensive but now it sure is piece of mind.
 
Wrong

Dave,
I can understand the thought process, but I disagree with your conclusion. Not everyone who is a pilot is slated to die in an aircraft accident. Sure, some do, but most don't.

For EVERYTHING we do, we make a determination of our likelihood of being hurt. Then decide whether to continue or not. Your attitude towards flying is safety and I've seen it in many of the things you do. The odds of you dying in a plane incident is pretty low in my opinion. You have a better chance of hitting a third deer with your car (for those who don't know, Dave has nailed two already).

You live in an airpark because of your love for aviation. The odds that you will seriously miss flying are much higher than having an aircraft accident.

Pat Donovan
Troy, MO
 
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Geico266 said:
I would rather be a fireball in the sky than living in a hospice hotel with a diaper on.



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Remarkable statement, but when I consider this, along with the line from Braveheart that "all men die, but not all men really live", I must say that I've seen more elder men that live a seemingly sedate life who are more "alive" inside than those that live what appears on the surface to be a life of high adventure. I guess it depends on how you define "really live".

On the whole fear of death issue, I think it depends on what you plan to do after death.
 
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You've gotta make choices in life, and one of the ones we make every day is the level of risk we are willing to accept for a given activity. In flying, we can greatly reduce our risk by not doing dumb things - VFR into IMC, scud running, low level acro, etc. Also, by flying properly maintained aircraft.

I figure that by eliminating those risks, I've mitigated about 80% of my flying risk. The other 20% is mechanical failure, poor technique on my part, or act of God kind of stuff like a midair (those are very, very rare). I can live with those odds. But everyone has to make their own personal evaluation. What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another.
 
vic syracuse said:
......
I've told Carol that IF I happen to die in an airplane event she is to smack anyone who says I died loving what I was doing! I may enjoy flying, but I certainly doubt I would enjoy dying while doing it. :)
VIc
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Personally, I'd like to die doing something I don't like to do....something like a heart attack while doing my taxes, or filling out a job application. Somehow death won't seem so bad! :D




.
 
A few years ago, I was flying my rented C150 out of L71 headed back to SMO. I looked at my 2 o clock and there was a Piper twin. I remember as I rolled away, a very clear picture of the offending aircraft, so big in my field of view I could see the cylinder fins through the inlets of his nacelles.

I was still on climbout from Cal City. Climbout is a good part of the trip, in a C150 on a hot day in the high desert, but I figured I'd get to altitude before I called flight following. That indelible picture of the other plane's fins burned into my brain permanently modified my formerly lazy approach to radar coverage. From then on, as soon as I can, I get me some flight following. If I can't, that picture is never far out of mind, and I'm scanning the sky as if everyone else is being paid to kill me.
 
None of us gets out of this world alive, and most of us are going to step off the cliff without even knowing we are next to the edge.

We all take risks in life, from getting out of bed in the morning to driving to work to eating too much bacon to flying airplanes or you name it. Nobody WANTS to die doing what they love, but we accept the risks inherent with that activity. People get hit by lightning while golfing, eaten by sharks while surfing, hit by cars while jogging, all kinds of things can happen to us that we have little or no control over. Pipelines explode, trains derail, buildings catch on fire, and aneurysms rupture. You can't predict it, you can't stop it, and you shouldn't be afraid to enjoy the good parts of life because of it.

Control the risks you can, accept the ones you can't, and enjoy the life you have. And since we seem to be choosing up sides here, put me in the "fireball" category versus the nursing home category. There will come a day when I stop carrying passengers - but I'll probably never stop flying.
 
airguy said:
None of us gets out of this world alive, and most of us are going to step off the cliff without even knowing we are next to the edge.

We all take risks in life, from getting out of bed in the morning to driving to work to eating too much bacon to flying airplanes or you name it. Nobody WANTS to die doing what they love, but we accept the risks inherent with that activity. People get hit by lightning while golfing, eaten by sharks while surfing, hit by cars while jogging, all kinds of things can happen to us that we have little or no control over. Pipelines explode, trains derail, buildings catch on fire, and aneurysms rupture. You can't predict it, you can't stop it, and you shouldn't be afraid to enjoy the good parts of life because of it.

Control the risks you can, accept the ones you can't, and enjoy the life you have. And since we seem to be choosing up sides here, put me in the "fireball" category versus the nursing home category. There will come a day when I stop carrying passengers - but I'll probably never stop flying.
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Greg, very well stated.
 
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