S

swixtt

Well Known Member
Hello,
new member of this forum...

what is the general opinion of the Practice Kit from Van's. is it something that comes with good instructions for a first timer?

i believe and hope there might be a course coming to High River Alberta soon, but that may not happen. they are the closet to me(BC rockies).

so i just want some feedback on the practice kits. some have said the info included is pretty vague.

thanks all

pete
 
welcome aboard!

Hey Pete,

Welcome aboard. I just finished the toolbox practice yet not long ago and I found it was fairly straight-forward. There were some areas that could've been explained better, but if I figured it out.... anyone can. :D I do have some photos on my site if you want to check that out... it helped me to find some pictures online when I had questions.

I just received the other practice kit on Friday - so I'll be getting into that as well. Can't speak to it, yet!

Dive in!
 
woohooo, that looks great!

i was actually meaning the other practice kit.

say, how big is that shop you have!!!
 
My shop is about 27' long by about 12' wide... it used to be a one-stall garage but is now a "bonus" room on the house. It's nice to have some heat/air... I say "some".

Yes - I just received the other practice kit last Friday... so I have only read through the instructions and inventoried the parts. From what I read, it seems to be fairly good, but it's hard to tell until you are in there doing the work.

I'm sure someone else will chime in with some experience!
 
Hi Pete &Co

I'm also new to the forum so I can't answer or comment but would like to joint you in the quest.

I'm in South Africa and I don't think any of those courses would come this way soon, so I’ll most probably get one of those practice kits and all the constructions dvd’s does anyone have commentary on the dvd’s available from Vans before I order?

Ernie
 
Practice Kits and DVDs

I attended the sheetmetal workshop at Oshkosh before ordering both of the practice kits. I picked up my tool set at Cleaveland Tools on the way home and started driving rivets in scrap aluminum. By the time the practice kits arrived I had driven about 200 rivets and had some confidence in my tools/skills.

Both kits are good.

The regular practice kit instructions are not as clear as the toolbox instructions, but you can figure them out and the kit will develop nearly all the skills needed to finish the empennage kit. The toolbox uses more standard rivets and is sized to hold tools, beer cans, etc. when you're finished.

The videos sold by Van's are good, but some are a little dated since many of them were produced before the matched hole kits were available. In my case, the DVDs described the use of jigs and fixtures that aren't needed with the current RV8 kits.

Having said that, the skills described and the relationship of all the parts has not changed and I reviewed the DVDs several times during construction to make sure I understood the drawings. When in doubt, follow the instructions and drawings that come with your kit.

Mike
 
thanks guys.

avgeek... how did you come to arrive at the RV-7 kit for your project? flown one, buddies have one, more performance, aerobatics?
i'll keep your site handy so i hope you keep it updated with your next practice kit.
your shop looks good! i gather you'll be able to get it out when it's done;)

mike, do you have a build site or thread for your kit?
 
Hey there,

Yes - the end of the room I didn't show very well has sliding doors that will easily come out/off to get components out the door. I'll probably do assembly/storage out in our 2-stall garage, but I really wanted to use in the indoor shop because of climate control. :)

I'll definitely be keeping the site up-to-date, and I'll try to do a more "step by step" of the process of building this second practice kit.

As for the -7, I was originally thinking of building a -9, but after talking to several people and talking to Dan Checkoway (http://www.rvproject.com), I determined that the -7 gave me the most options for the type of flying I wanted to do... light aerobatics, cross-country flying, etc. :) That said, I don't think you can go wrong with any RV. :D

I have yet to fly in an RV.. but hopefully soon! I've been tracking these forums and other builder sites for over a year now... just finally got around to getting my act together.
 
that's what i was thinking too... an RV-9a but i had thought it was a better XC...throttled back it will go a long way. the wingspan is different and of course the engine selections but i wanted and was thinking more in the economy because fuel isn't going to get any cheaper. may even the 100ll will be phased out???
anyway, i don't know that much and you've researched a lot on this it sounds like!
anything else that steared you away from the RV-9?

thanks
pete
 
Hey Pete,

For me, it was a matter of the aerobatic qualities. I just want to be able to loop/roll when I feel the urge. :) Other than that, the -9/9A was on the top of my list and definitely a fine airplane!

I think if you search through these forums you'll find a ton of posts about the 7 vs the 9. But I'll bet you'll also find that if it has 'RV' in front of it, it's all good. :cool:
 
I'm well into my wings, but took a few hours aside to build the toolbox as a gift for my cousin's birthday. I had a blast building it, and added a few touches of my own.

Get used to vague instructions early - the empennage instructions are VERY well put together, but the wing and (from what I hear) fuselage instructions leave you to do a lot of interpretation from the prints. Good luck with your builds.

n12804481_34497290_7198.jpg


n12804481_34497291_7584.jpg
 
Great looking toolbox. I have to say I had a few more "oops" moments. ;) I guess that's part of the point...

Pete: The -9 isn't just different on wingspan... I believe it is a completely different wing design as well, but maybe you knew that.... :)
 
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aviationgeek84 said:
Great looking toolbox. I have to say I had a few more "oops" moments. ;) I guess that's part of the point...

Pete: The -9 isn't just different on wingspan... I believe it is a completely different wing design as well, but maybe you knew that.... :)
Click to expand...

My oops moments were on my empennage. I essentially built two rudders.
 
looking for the tools.

what have most of you guys done. some have bought the RV toolkit... any guys buy up in canada?
 
EAA videos for learning

I found the EAA online videos to be a good source of learning info :) - but haven't yet translated what I've viewed and think I've learned to any practical aspect - still tooling up. I'm guessing though that certain ones would make it easier for a newbie like me to get up to speed on the practice kits (my toolbox kit is still sitting on the workbench waiting:mad:)

http://www.eaa.org/video/homebuilders.html
 
I'm just in the middle of building the ToolBox, and have the practice kit for after that.
The Toolbox goes together pretty easily. Yes, the is a little bit of working out things but not too much. Can't have it all too easy! And yes, there is room for mistakes.

The other useful thing I'm finding with it is that it's helping work out what tools I haven't got (such as tin snips, rivet guages and small clamps) and which tools I do have but might not suit my temperment (such as a hole deburring tool, as using a drill in my fingers is proving to be more than a bit of a pain - literally).

DAZ: for learing I just received the "RV Rudder Workshop" DVD from Homebuilthelp.com. Although production is a bit 'home video'ish, the information is good and pertinent.
 
what have most of you guys done. some have bought the RV toolkit... any guys buy up in canada?
Click to expand...

I have started with the "Get Me Started" tool kit from Cleaveland Tools... it seems to have everything I need so far (for the practice kits) and claims to have everything needed for the tail kit. When I move on to the rest of the kit, I'll fill out my tool arsenal. :p
 
anyone using the Isham tools?

i kinda wanted to buy in Canada but maybe that isn't an option? has everyone that built an RV in canada get their tools from the states?
 
Isham Tools

I bought my kit from Cleaveland, but have ordered several times from Isham and they provide great service.

Isham includes the DRDT-2 dimpler and a pneumatic squeezer-both excellent tools, and the rest of their tools are high quality.

If you go with the Isham kit you may find that you still need a hand squeezer...I alternate between hand squeezer, pnuematic squeezer, and rivet gun based on where the rivet is/access for the tool. If so, I'd recommend either the Avery or Cleaveland hand squeezers (my personal preference is for the Cleaveland).

Mike
 
swixtt said:
has everyone that built an RV in canada get their tools from the states?
Click to expand...

I had the exact same question... I called a fellow builder, here in Quebec and he recommended going with Avery or Isham. I dealer in Ontario sells RV Kits (can't remember the name) but most of the items are Avery tools ;) Save youselft the hassle, order directly!

I just ordered a RV Toolkit from Avery. Communication was excellent... I contacted them about removing some items, replacing others and it was always fast and simple.

What I removed
-Protection Glasses (already have those)
-Back Riveting plate (will get local, saves shipping!)
-Air Drill (I hate those, bougth a small Dewalt local)
-Both Books
-Both Wiss (bougth localy)
-C Frame
-Rubber mallet

Then added
-DRDT Kit, to make my own.. then again, it's lighter, so saving on shipping.

Ended up paying just over $2k US. With the current exchange rate(it's dropping by the minute, hurry up or wait a couple of weeks), +2% charged by Visa for the exchange, total is around $2500 CAD.

I'm using FEDEX for shipping, I will have to pay ~$60 for brokerage fees + both taxes here in Quebec.

I orded my kit yesterday. Haven't received anything yet (obviously) but so far I'm really pleased with Avery.

Now I need to order my -9 empennage and start working!

If you need info on shipping or anything else, just ask!
 
Planetools.com

Hey everyone, I am new here but I just finished my horizontal stabilizer and I used Ishams tools kit for the 7. So far I have been very happy with my selection. All the tools are very high quality and the price was great. I had a problem with my cleco pliers and they sent me a new pair the next day and told me how to fix my original pliers. I bought the two extra yokes for the pneumatic squeezer and have used them quite a bit.
 
I got the tool box kit and never finished it. With the tail kit you get some sheet metal scraps, so just cut up some strips, drill some holes and practice away on that.
 
isham tools

I bought there rv tool kit about 3 weeks ago. i made some deletions and additions to this kit and when I called Isham picked up the phone and walked me through the process. my kit arrived when promised and when I opened the box there was a couple of freebies added to my order. high quality tools high quality service I recommend there kit and will be using them again.
 
llavalle said:
I had the exact same question... I called a fellow builder, here in Quebec and he recommended going with Avery or Isham. I dealer in Ontario sells RV Kits (can't remember the name) but most of the items are Avery tools ;) Save youselft the hassle, order directly!

I just ordered a RV Toolkit from Avery. Communication was excellent... I contacted them about removing some items, replacing others and it was always fast and simple.

What I removed
-Protection Glasses (already have those)
-Back Riveting plate (will get local, saves shipping!)
-Air Drill (I hate those, bougth a small Dewalt local)
-Both Books
-Both Wiss (bougth localy)
-C Frame
-Rubber mallet

Then added
-DRDT Kit, to make my own.. then again, it's lighter, so saving on shipping.

Ended up paying just over $2k US. With the current exchange rate(it's dropping by the minute, hurry up or wait a couple of weeks), +2% charged by Visa for the exchange, total is around $2500 CAD.

I'm using FEDEX for shipping, I will have to pay ~$60 for brokerage fees + both taxes here in Quebec.

I orded my kit yesterday. Haven't received anything yet (obviously) but so far I'm really pleased with Avery.

Now I need to order my -9 empennage and start working!

If you need info on shipping or anything else, just ask!
Click to expand...

thanks guys, all good info to hear.

why do you hate the Air Drill? you prefer the electric cordless to it? i think the cabinet makers drills are pretty nice but VERY expensive, no question. you get what you pay for.
my drill just packed it in tonight building my benches:( it's an older Makita 14.4 1.3Ah and of course the batteries are crazy expensive.
well, off to find something else out there!

keep the info coming, it's great to read and gather the 'tools' so to speak!!
 
swixtt said:
why do you hate the Air Drill? you prefer the electric cordless to it?
Click to expand...

An air drill is really a good tool and it's light too. I just don't like the sound it makes...(I'll be building in the garage that's attached to my house) also because it consumes a lot of air, the compressor can't keep up and I don't want to change it right now.

The dewalt is not cordless. It's a corded model. 2500rpms, reversible with keyless chuck.
-->http://www.dewalt.com/us/products/tool_detail.asp?productID=5466

I know I might need an air drill sometime during the build... I gave one to my father last year as a birthday gift... I can just borrow it from him!

You can go with Avery or Isham, both seems to be good suppliers.

I've found the supplier in Ontario I was talking about in my previous post
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/canada.html
 
Practice kit and tools

I personally went with the Vans tool box practice kit. I believed it was more practical to see an assembly of parts go together that actually turned out to be something useful. I also (after much research) went with Isham (plane tools) for all of my tools. After consulting with other experienced builders in my area for key tools such as the dimplier I came to the conclusion the lever type dimplier is the most controllable/consistent/quite for the application.

Just an opinion, but I would add to the tool box a 4" thin-wall yoke and a hand squeezer. The hand squeezer is great for situations where you want to set rivets is tight places with maximum control. Isham tools comes standard with a pneumatic squeezer which is great for dimpling rib flanges and squeezing rivets. I found it is a great time saver when you have repetitive rivets to set. I believe its the best way to set the larger rivets as well. This is a device you will become good friends with!

I am a big believer in having the right tools for the job. It will make your building experience more enjoyable Right out of the box!
 
R Eleew said:
I personally went with the Vans tool box practice kit. I believed it was more practical to see an assembly of parts go together that actually turned out to be something useful. I also (after much research) went with Isham (plane tools) for all of my tools. After consulting with other experienced builders in my area for key tools such as the dimplier I came to the conclusion the lever type dimplier is the most controllable/consistent/quite for the application.

Just an opinion, but I would add to the tool box a 4" thin-wall yoke and a hand squeezer. The hand squeezer is great for situations where you want to set rivets is tight places with maximum control. Isham tools comes standard with a pneumatic squeezer which is great for dimpling rib flanges and squeezing rivets. I found it is a great time saver when you have repetitive rivets to set. I believe its the best way to set the larger rivets as well. This is a device you will become good friends with!

I am a big believer in having the right tools for the job. It will make your building experience more enjoyable Right out of the box!
Click to expand...


what 'lever type' dimpler are you referring too? i just received my kit!! it came pretty fast... even to Canada!!
of course i don't have any dimpler but i've acquired a couple of other tools to help in assembly.
i looked at a pic of a toolkit on here and the rivets aren't flush. the ones in mine are.??
anyway thanks for all the info!
 
ahhh.. i just looked inside that little bag and found the other standard ones! phew, i was looking for another 'brown bag'.

So, now i just need to get a dimpler tools and start some rivets!
 
swixtt said:
So, now i just need to get a dimpler tools and start some rivets!
Click to expand...
If you have the dies and all you're missing is the C-Frame tool, you can complete the toolbox.

I haven't made by DRDT-2 yet (bought the plans and front end kit).

I dimpled using my rivet sqeezer with the dimpling dies...
 
llavalle said:
If you have the dies and all you're missing is the C-Frame tool, you can complete the toolbox.

I haven't made by DRDT-2 yet (bought the plans and front end kit).

I dimpled using my rivet sqeezer with the dimpling dies...
Click to expand...


yeah, i've read that... but i don't even have the simple die or squeezer. that is what i require now.
 
Where are you?

Swixtt, I am in the process of building an F1 Rocket, have been at it for nearly two years, and have a pretty full set of tools to help the process. If you are near Fernie you would be welcome to come by and do some building on your toolbox. I will be home working in my shop next Saturday.
 
hi there...

i'm over in Cranbrook ... not very far away but maybe a bit far for working on the practice kits.


i was just over there working yesterday. next time i'm there i'll see if you are around.

anyhow, talk to you soon... i'll send you a pm.
 
Practice kit

Yes, do the practice kit. But buy the tool kit first from AVery or someone. I did the practice kits in March and am no closing my fuel tanks on a 7a. There is good learning with the practice kit. The instructions are as good as they get. Later the instructions become less descriptive and you are expected to know what you learn doing the practice kit and empennage. I also took an EAA course, but it was doing the practice kit over again. I would recommend the whole tool kit like Avery shows. The right tools of good quality are necessary. Good look. Also check out www.mykitlog.com my log is there user=sglynn
 
swixtt said:
that's what i was thinking too... an RV-9a but i had thought it was a better XC...throttled back it will go a long way. the wingspan is different and of course the engine selections but i wanted and was thinking more in the economy because fuel isn't going to get any cheaper. may even the 100ll will be phased out???
anyway, i don't know that much and you've researched a lot on this it sounds like!
anything else that steared you away from the RV-9?

thanks
pete
Click to expand...


Hi Pete.

I originally decided to go with the -7 because of the aerobatic capability but I'm not an aerobatic pilot.

The -9 can do some mild aerobatics - just not recommended.

As for the distance for long XC's, 2 1/2 to 3 hours is about all I want to sit in a plane without taking some sort of break - stand up, kidney relief.

The -7 is less expensive (or at least it was when I looked)

I went with the -9 because of the slower landing speeds - I really like that.

The -9 can cruise at nearly 200 mph - that's plenty for me.
 
I am wondering if it is really necessary to get the practice kits. Reading past threads and seeing what a kid can produce ... is it really that difficult to drive a rivet?

Having zero experience; learn on the tail, or learn on the tool box? ...
 
I guess each of us are different, but I enjoyed the practice toolbox project and am now enjoying the other practice kit provided by Van's. Seems like good practice and at the very least, a cheap confidence-builder. :)

But... to each their own! :D
 
Adam Oke said:
I am wondering if it is really necessary to get the practice kits. Reading past threads and seeing what a kid can produce ... is it really that difficult to drive a rivet?

Having zero experience; learn on the tail, or learn on the tool box? ...
Click to expand...

adam,
i would say giver' on the tailkit! i know lots of guys that didn't bother with the practice kits but for me, i wasn't ready to commit, wanted to learn the lingo, what tools i wanted and why. i don't want to get a full toolkit but rather get specific good tools. i can't stand having tools that are below par.
i wanted to wait and see if i could pick up a unassembled kit ... so i went with the practice kit to get my feet wet. they are cheap relative to everything else.
i also wanted to know if metal is something i would enjoy working on!

anyway, like others have said, the descriptions and instructions take a bit of time to get used too. it's nice to go through that with the practice kit but if you just take a minute to read what they mean it makes sense. i'm sure you won't have a problem.

get your tools yet? :D:D
 
Cool, thanks guys.

No tool kit yet.... no word that my cheque has been received either: eek: ... lol But it's only been a few days since I mailed it off. You can expect an excited thread to appear with Christmas style pictures opening the box! :D
 
The practice kits were very useful for me. In particular, they told me that I needed a lot more practice before assembling anything that would go into the airplane.

TODR
 
Went down to Vans and did the test flight in a RV9a!!! Needless to say we came home with a Kit in the back of the toyota!!
what an amazing machine!
 
got some of the tools from Isham yesterday and today i'm working away on the practice kits.
that order was shipped on Saturday and arrived at the shipping location on Tuesday i believe.

so far so good, but the squeezer i have isn't quite long enough to do some the rivets. so i get to use the rivet gun ... it is a 2x and i'm wondering what pressure setting others have used. right now it is at 80lbs. too much, too little.?
first i use a quick tap to set the rivet and finish it off with a few more.

also, when i was dimpling, using the squeezer and 3/32", i had a hard time keeping the piece straight.... so it doesn't warp. especially on the ends.

this stuff is hard to keep from scratching while working on it. definitely going to leave the protector on while working the emp. kit later when i know what the heck i'm doing!
 
Hi there,

I think my 3X rivet gun from Cleaveland is recommended to use 80lbs of pressure. Not sure about the 2X.

As for dimpling - I had the same problem on the toolbox, but am not experiencing it with the other practice kit. Maybe I was being too aggressive with the dimpling on the toolbox ends, because they are curled slightly near the ends of the ends.

Just my experience. :)
 
Reduced tool kit when starting construction on a QB

Does anyone recommend a tool selection for starting construction on a 9a with completed Empennage, Fuselage and Wings. I imagine that the number of tools could be reduced but what items can I safely dispense with from the full kit recommendeed by Avery etc?
 
i'm no good at recommending what is needed there... sorry. i'm just starting out.

So, i was just doing the 1/8th Univ. Rivet(AN470AD4-4) and wondered what i should use in the squeezer for the head? i have the proper 1/8th size for the back of it but didn't know if there was a special die for the head.

Also, i noticed a small amount of smoke just as you squeeze a rivet!! no kidding!!
 
Head and Back?

If by the head you mean the shop head that forms when you squeeze the rivet, you can use any of your flat dies for that end. The domed top on the universal rivet requires a purpose built die for the size of rivet - use the 1/8 cupped die on the -4 rivet, the 3/32 cupped die on the -3 rivet.
 
swixtt said:
Also, i noticed a small amount of smoke just as you squeeze a rivet!! no kidding!!
Click to expand...


This is not uncommon, you'll see more of it especially on the larger rivets. The smaller ones do the same thing, but it's less noticeable. It's aluminum oxide powderizing and floating off the surface of the rivet as the aluminum substrate deforms underneath it.

For the rivet guns, I get good results running about 40-45 psi on my 2X on all the 3 size rivets, and about 75-80 psi on my 3X gun on the 4 size rivets. I may be running a bit hot on the 3X, some other builders like to use about 60-65 psi. The squeezer gets about 90 psi and likes it.

Don't worry too much about scratching up the skin while working with it - the alclad surface coating is a few thousandths of an inch of pure aluminum and is VERY soft. So soft, in fact, that if you write on it with a sharpie and then wipe away the ink with a paper towel and acetone, you can still see the writing where the sharpie pen felt-tip scratched the surface of the aluminum. You will accumulate lots of marks on the skin during building, and then when you're finished and it's time to paint, you will scuff the devil out of the skin intentionally while prepping for paint - so don't sweat it now.
 
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thanks guys... that helped a lot! i'll probably reduce the PSI for the 2x and see how that goes for the other practice kit i have.

i'm glad a have these practice kits to get familiar with everything. AND with things that i don't have and would like. namely a DRDT for doing the skins.

i'll try to reduce my scratching on the next kit. and leave the protector on it. yeah i can see it would be pretty tough to avoid any scratches.

anyway, all this has helped me and i enjoy the work so far.
 
Debur

OK... i'm done with the toolbox... it turned out pretty good. i'm onto the other practice kit now and am wondering how i can debur the inner holes on the two small ribs?
i am at a point now where i can't do much more as i've dimpled as much as i can with the squeezer i have. can't reach anymore in the centre for the stiffners. if i had a simple-dimple i could do those ones quick.
 
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