T

trishrussell

Member
I just got off the phone with Brenda at Flight Guide. Why? Because I needed to vent my displeasure. I won't be able to carry the entire US in paper form in three little books for under 3 pounds any more. They are switching to 6 books for the US. Together the new books will weight 8 pounds and take up far more space at 5 1/2 X 8 1/2 inches each, instead of 5 1/2 X 5 inches.

Brenda said they had to standardize their online and downloadable products. She thought people would like the larger format. Not me!

I explained weight and size are a big consideration. Yes, the download stuff is nice, but when I like Flight Guide the most is when the weather is getting bad, I'm in an unfamiliar place, I'm not going to get to my planned destination, or alternate for that matter, and there is the wonderful handy Flight Guide. With a flip of a few pages I can find a close destination, hotel, fuel, and something to eat. I don't need to boot a laptop, ipad, or hope for a cell signal. All for less than 3 pounds for the entire United States.

Brenda asked, "Do you need multiple states?" Heck ya! I fly an RV.

She kept trying to sell me on eBook/ipad stuff. Is that what it is coming to?

I like my little books. I'm really going to miss my little books.

She'll be at Oshkosh. Stop by and tell her 5 pounds and size matters.
Or......if your don't agree I hope the batteries in your eBook/ipad don't run out.

Trish
 
I completely agree!

I will tell her/them what I/we think. I have an unpaid invoice sitting here and may just leave it unpaid. Thanks for the heads up.
Edit: I just sent an email telling them goodbye and good luck.
 
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I guess all good things come to an end

For 25 years or so these have been the most reliable and handy travel aids for me. Somebody is really screwing up messing with the the three little brown books. I felt like the situation was decaying at Flight Guide with all of the recent emphasis on the electronic system. You could just feel the geek influence moving in. I will just keep the latest books I have and ignore the company in the future. I guess I'll have to get the AOPA Airport Directory for preflight planning.

Bob Axsom
 
I'd pull four airports out of a Flight Guide & copy them to one 81/2 * 11 folded in half for my kneeboard. It's worked great. I also have the online format, but the size and difference in layout isn't as convienent. I prefer Flight Guide over AOPA for the ramp layouts (buildings, tower, etc), but the AOPA is workable and printable.

Speeking of kneeboards, I never used them, and always figured they'd be tight in an RV. Then my wife got tired of holding and going through the Flight Guide all the time. So we got one of those cloth covered, three piece kneeboards. It works great, as I don't have a center console.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Yep. I'm sure. 6 books instead of 3, and more cost.

Gary Sobek wrote:
The NEW service is 6 books ONCE a year in the BASIC service or 6 books twice a year in the DELUXE service. There is also a choice of two types of binding formats: Spiral and Classic 3 hole drilled. Note that the 3 hole drilled require a separate purchase binder at $19 plus 4.95 shipping EACH binder + tax.

Basic service (once a year revisions) = $29 per region, $49 for two regions, or $139 for the entire US.

Deluxe service (twice a year revisions) = $49 per region, $89 for two regions, or $249 for the entire US.

Both services come with FREE Flight Guide ONLINE.

Looks like they more than doubled the price for the entire US compared to what I just paid them.
 
Oh No!

trishrussell said:
Brenda said they had to standardize their online and downloadable products. She thought people would like the larger format. Not me!

Brenda asked, "Do you need multiple states?" Heck ya! I fly an RV.

Trish
Click to expand...

This is a huge tragedy. While I understand their want to standardize stuff, me thinks they should have asked the users how they felt. I wonder how much business their going to loose. I really like the small format in the cramped RV cockpit.

I'm not a fan of battery operated stuff in the airplane. My books sit until needed and never fail to operate. I wonder if Ipad/kindle users can say the same.

I'll be sure to call/write and visit them at OSH and voice my displeasure.
 
One workaround is keep my three set and make sure that a GPS is updated frequently so comm frequencies are current.
 
I hope everyone keeps posting other options. I plan to take the three little binders with me to AirVenture 2010 Oshkosh. I will be looking at other options while at Oshkosh and what others post here. So far, it looks like most posts do not like the change.

I have the AOPA directory app on my iPhone but find it OK as a reference but do not want it to be my only directory.

I do not like the idea of purchasing the Airport Facility Directory as it would be more money for the lower 48 than the NEW Flight Guide.

I guess I could purchase a Kindle like Doug or a Sony eReader like Ironflight then pay the FEE for the electronic service.

Not my idea of a standalone backup system.
 
I like my books too...

...and if I'm using my netbook on the ground, why bother with Flight Guide?

I find the free www.airnav.com to be more useful.

It's a poor move as Trish says...

gil A - presently in Owensboro, KY - with a little brown book...:)
 
Oh for...

I built my whole danged airplane around those little brown books! :eek: The side pockets in the front seat were made to fit two of them:

MapPocket-R-upper-02.jpg


Hey, Flight Guide folks: Please don't mess with perfection!
 
The western region "little brown book" was a Christmas gift from Tuppergal way back in the earlys 80's, and I now use all three regions for our cross country flights. The company has decided to move to six "BIG brown books"... TWO's OUT! :( Rosie

Update 11/18/2010: I just received my new bill for six (6) books, and the total for the year was $242.... definitely out now as I can update my Garmin 496 airport database for much less per year.

Flight_guide_holder01.jpg
 
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I just called and confirmed that updates to my "classic" size are no longer available.

I will keep them and ensure more frequent GPS database updates. I just updated the 430W so I am good for a while...except for some changes that I also get with my Air Chart subscription.
 
I make it a point to visit all the vendors whose products I use while at OSH. I'll be expressing my displeasure at their decision. Perhaps they forgot that we vote with our wallets.
 
zilik said:
I'm not a fan of battery operated stuff in the airplane. My books sit until needed and never fail to operate. I wonder if Ipad/kindle users can say the same.
Click to expand...

That's why I carry a car charger! And iPad has a 8 - 10 hour battery. I too
feel your pain. I love my little books! Did however load Foreflight onto
the iPad last night and will give it a try. So far on the ground, I'm impressed.

p1000051n.jpg
 
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Little Brown Books

I was an "early adopter" of Monte's little brown books, but that was in the '60s. Between what my 430 knows, Foreflight, and a few quick downloads from the web, I haven't subscribed to the Flight Guide for several years.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Oh NO!

I've been using the little books for 20 years! two of em fit inside the standard VANS glove box with the WAC and other paper charts- that is 2/3 of the US airport info!! :eek: Don't have to worry about battries with paper-this is not good!
 
For $20 you can buy SkyCharts Pro for an iPhone (if you have one) and get the free Aopa directory iPhone app, and have all this data cached...which is 99% of the info available in the Flight Guides, for a lot less $$...and you get TAFs/METARs and moving map sectionals to boot. Quite honestly I don't see why anyone would want to mess with paper updates nowadays.
 
Bob, why paper for me?

1) I have no iPhone
2) I have no electronic chart/book/big display device.
3) Paper is good.
 
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rocketbob said:
Quite honestly I don't see why anyone would want to mess with paper updates nowadays.
Click to expand...

Well, since you asked (and this is mostly for the benefit of the Flight Guide people who might read this):
  • Because electronic devices are more expensive.
  • Because batteries fail, go dead, catch fire, etc.
  • Because electronic devices themselves sometimes fail or break. Paper guides won't break if they fall off the counter at the FBO. They never get viruses or software glitches. They never need charging.
  • Because electronic devices have boot-up times. Paper guides have colored tabs that get me to the information I need in one second.
  • Because 3G service or WiFi is unavailable in many places in the world.
  • Because buying another electronic device and another data subscription adds complexity to my life I do not want.
  • Because holding and using an electronic device in the cockpit can be inconvenient.
  • Because flipping pages in a book is more intuitive and pleasurable than swiping a screen.
  • Because I can make notes on the pages of a paper guide, or highlight information with a highlighter.
  • Because sometimes, on a cold winter night, it's fun to discover new places to visit by closing one's eyes and opening a random page of a paper directory.
  • Because doing a paper revision with Flight Guides' "full replacement" service takes less than 5 minutes for me to do, and doing so encourages me to read some of the changes and get re-familar with the other, supplemental material in the guide.
  • Because it fits perfectly into my airplane's limited space.
I am definitely not a Luddite. I have an iPod touch, a Droid phone, a laptop, a portable GPS, APRS, and even one of them fancy digital watches. ;) I'm just trying to point out that sometimes, dirt-simple is better, and in my opinion, this is one of those times.
 
You live in the moment Bob

rocketbob said:
For $20 you can buy SkyCharts Pro for an iPhone (if you have one) and get the free Aopa directory iPhone app, and have all this data cached...which is 99% of the info available in the Flight Guides, for a lot less $$...and you get TAFs/METARs and moving map sectionals to boot. Quite honestly I don't see why anyone would want to mess with paper updates nowadays.
Click to expand...

I guess the change is to your liking - I think it stinks. Some things are special. I still have my 16th edition of Senterfitt's Airports of Mexico & Central America copyrighted in 1982 that I treasure even though I haven't flown to Mexico since 1992. I guess the last issue of the little Flight Guides will be the same. If no one is willing to DOCUMENT things in detail, high quality permanent and unchangeable form, history is going to suffer at the whim of the uncontrolled database updaters. You can have all of your little electric bricks that will be worthless in a couple of years but why does such a useful and treasured product as the three little brown book Flight Guides have to go away? I suspect it is because the creative genius behind these widely treasured books is mortal and the people that are left with carrying on the production do not have the unique vision and creative qualities of the originator. They don't value the work, they are not dedicated to the product and the customers. They just stand back and herd the operation it in the general direction they think it should go with no recognition of what made this special and it just dies. It happens all the time - I just wish it wouldn't have happened to Flight Guide.

Bob Axsom
 
Rats!

Kind of a tough day, rvaviation wise.

I too, built my airplane around the little brown books that nestled in their own little compartment alongside the baggage.

And LOE; there was a bit of magic there at Las Cruces, for a few brief years.
 
Dunno about the iPhone letting one down...hasn't happened to me yet. Just today in a pinch I had to borrow a Saratoga to go pick up five guys about an hour away. Wasn't anywhere near a computer to print out the A/FD pages, and even if I had up-to-date Flight Guides I wasn't near my hangar. 5 minutes jotting down the frequencies off the A/FD page in Skycharts and studying the airport diagram I was home free. I am a luddite myself with a panel full of steam in my new Rocket but I will never go back to paper subscriptions of anything.
 
rocketbob said:
I will never go back to paper subscriptions of anything.
Click to expand...

I hear ya. The other nice thing about using an iPhone or Android: The flight guide is smart enough to let me see the nearest airports - I don't even need to key in identifiers.
 
I lived by those little brown books for quite a few years, and gave them up when I started subscribing to full IFR charts due to economic necessity. Always liked having them but I just couldn't justify that many subscriptions. If I was still using those things, I think Id be a bit ticked off as well - their size was perfect!

Now I use the Aircharts for paper products, and my 696 and EFIS for electronic charts. For those who are absolutely against having electronic, or only electronic, try this experiment - carry both. After a year, tell me how many times you've opened the paper......(my Airchart binders live next to the back seat in the Val, and only get used, well.....I don't remember....

Paul
 
Paul, you forget about those of use who still have only dialup for internet access. I have no 696 or EFIS.
 
Ron Lee said:
Paul, you forget about those of use who still have only dialup for internet access. I have no 696 or EFIS.
Click to expand...

Dial-up? Oh you mean that you still greet every bit by it's first name as it comes tumbling out of the phone line....;):p

No, nothing wrong with paper - I was just kind of implying that many folks who proclaim "they can have my paper charts when they pry them from my cold dead hands!" haven't actually tried the electronic route. If you've tried both, then you can make a valid comparison. For my GA flying, I have found that electronic works best for me, especially in an RV cockpit.

Interestingly enough, in my day job of flying aerospace vehicles, they can have my paper products when they can pry them from my cold dead hands....and yep, I have tried it both ways! ;)

And still, if I was using Flight Guides, I'd like the little ones!
 
Ironflight said:
Dial-up? Oh you mean that you still greet every bit by it's first name as it comes tumbling out of the phone line....;):p
Click to expand...

Actually Paul I try to be a bit more efficient. I go eat a meal, cut the grass, fly somewhere, etc and then come back and greet several as a group.

I might like an electronic system better. I am somewhat envious of folks with iPhones or similar that can pull up the internet information standing out at the hangar.

Yesterday we were looking at a storm and wondering about a guy who had gone in that direction earlier. We pulled up the radar and could ID where the bad weather was along with a visual assessment.

There are those who might say that technology is leaving me in the dust. But they would be wrong. The dust has long since settled and it is clear again. Hey look over there...a nice slide rule.
 
Ron Lee said:
Actually Paul I try to be a bit more efficient. I go eat a meal, cut the grass, fly somewhere, etc and then come back and greet several as a group.

I might like an electronic system better. I am somewhat envious of folks with iPhones or similar that can pull up the internet information standing out at the hangar.

Yesterday we were looking at a storm and wondering about a guy who had gone in that direction earlier. We pulled up the radar and could ID where the bad weather was along with a visual assessment.

There are those who might say that technology is leaving me in the dust. But they would be wrong. The dust has long since settled and it is clear again. Hey look over there...a nice slide rule.
Click to expand...

Now, Ron, you wouldn't be like the guy who carried a buggy whip while driving his Motel T? :)

I like the Flight Guide books, have been subscribing to them for years and they will be missed.
 
Airguide change

It's very disappointing to see my little books get bigger and to downsize the coverage areas. Now I would have to carry more books for the areas I fly.
They must be financially hurting to have to make such a change.
 
Dear Santa,

My female owner would like an aera 560 for Christmas. She has a very nice 396 that she uses with joy. She even spent her spring break the year you gave her the 396 building a new panel for the AirGizmos cradle. She likes her 396, and was told she wouldn?t get a replacement until the 696 came out, but when it did it was too big, and she was happy with the 396. The problem is those cute little brown books that cuddled up next to her right thigh are going to be obsolete soon. They have lots of information in them that doesn?t come up on the 396. So it?s time.

They say the aera 560 will fit in the same hole in the panel, with a new cradle. It will slide in and out of the panel so my owner can flight plan in the hotel room. She won?t need to pay for another subscription or access fee, as would be needed with an iPad or eBook. She does have a new fancy phone, a Droid because an iPhone won?t work where she works. Since getting the Droid she doesn?t travel with her computer any more. She thought she had it made, being able to get Weathermeister and other cool stuff on the new phone, but it may not always work when flying cross country. The aera 560 seems like the best answer.

My male owner would feel better if I had an aera 560. (I heard he?s in cahoots with you.) He likes to know we always have lots of options for places to land. There have been lots of times we don?t land at the planned destination. My female owner is very conservative. She won?t push the weather. She likes to say, ?If the weather is going bad it must be time to do laundry?. She does her best to find me a nice hangar to wait out the weather. That?s when the little brown books have come in handy.

Did I mention my female owner is a bit adventurous? She?s called up the male and asked to go to North Caroline on the way home from Texas. We live in California! These are the times my male owner is glad the 396 and brown books are on board.

So Santa, how about it? Is an aera 560 in my future?

Sincerely,
N655RV RV-6A
 
I'm sure the company has what they think are good reasons for making the change...unfortunately, they have forgotten the rule of sales..."the customer is always right". I am in the middle of marketing gurus/sales gurus and engineers all the time. Many times I see an invention pushed by the marketing folks for no other reason than to put out a "fresh face"...sometimes the customer buys it, sometimes you lose the customer. I'm hopeful enough of us contacting this outfit will persuade them that yes, we really do want what we want. I've flown with the little books for years and like them for all the reasons everyone else has already written about, plus, they are educational reading in the cockpit.
I'll keep mine...
 
Flight Guide has messed up!!

I too am PO'd at Flight Guide's change. I fly all over the western US, not just in a few regional states. I never left home without my Western Region book... now to have to buy and haul around TWO books instead.... it aint' gonna happen.

The compactness and concise info in these small books is very reason they are (were) perfect for in hand and anywhere use. They've taken that away now. There are too many other options out there that can now take their place.

Because of this change, I won't be renewing my Flight Guide.
 
Perhaps their sales have dropped off due to others adopting some of the many electronic options. They must adapt and offer new products to compete/that are in demand. It's a business after all. A vocal minority perhaps? But a minority in their business nonetheless?

Joe
 
They had the business locked

They had the little brown book business locked. They go chasing others in me too fashion and abandon their core product they won't be in business very long.

Bob Axsom
 
Bob--

You're assuming THEY are making the pro-active choice to chase, when in reality they may have been seeing people not renewing paper manuals. Strictly a business decision. A "lock" in a market that is dying eventually won't be worth anything. How fast was that horizon approaching?

Like I said, you guys who live and die by these books may be the minority.

Joe
 
I have used the Flight Guides books for the last 30 years. I like the size, the fact three books covered the US and I for one will miss them. The new format will not be as useful or convient tfor me.
 
Make an offer

Bob Axsom said:
They had the little brown book business locked. They go chasing others in me too fashion and abandon their core product they won't be in business very long.

Bob Axsom
Click to expand...

They aren't "chasing after" anything, they have been active in the digital side for many years. I have a hunch they looked at the sales numbers and made a decision. If it is really that important, do a survey, get some numbers, meet with Flight Guide, and find out what it would take to keep the brown book in production. How much of a price increase are you willing to offer?

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
I would pay double in a heart beat

There simply is nothing else like them. If they are not going to keep them up I will just use the ones I have and that's it. I won't look for a replacement. Other than the AOPA whopper which will probably go away too. I already kissed Jep charts goodbye. In the west they are great but in the midwest especially in the northwest corner of Arkansas the cost for meaningful coverage is not practical. I've gone to FAA chart books through Sporty's. I don't need the little brown books or anything like them in any form but I sure did like them.

Bob Axsom
 
Here is my picture showing how my side panel upholstery was designed to hold these books. One on the left side..one on the right and a third behind the pilot.

The puppy was from a Pilots n Paws rescue today when I also went to KOJA (LOE replacement site)

2c37lb4
 
Too bad. I liked them for the small form factor. I think there are better alternatives in a large format book for the price they're offering. I will look elsewhere.

TODR
 
Not too bad

I just received a flyer in the mail about the new Flight Guide and I must say, I like it. It comes in two sizes 8.5x11 (spiral bound and three ring) and 5.5x8.5 spiral bound. The updates are now once a year for the standard plan instead of several times a year. I won't have to sort through my old Flight Guide pulling out the old and inserting the new, just throw out the old manual. With the 5.5x8.5 spiral bound guide, I can fold it back on itself to sit easily on a kneeboard. The online version also comes with the subscription.
I'll give it a look up close at Oshkosh but I think it looks pretty good.

Bill Near
 
Oshkosh changed my mind

Well, I just returned from Oshkosh, where I visited with the folks who publish the Flight Guides. My original intent was to express, in person, my displeasure about them canceling the small, brown Flight Guide books. After handling the new spiral-bound book and talking to the owners, I think I'm willing to convert to the new size.

First, the cost for two regions (comprising the same area that used to be covered by the Volume II book, for example) is $35 -- less than what I used to spend for a full revision service of Volume II.

Second, the new size is only 3 inches taller than the old book, the same width, and I think they will still fit in the map pockets on the sides of my cockpit. They're thinner than the old books, too. The print is bigger, with 1 to 4 airports on each page instead of up to 9. They look like they'll be significantly easier to read for aging eyes.

Third, there will be no more manual page revisions. You'll get a new book each revision cycle. Less work for me.

Fourth, your subscription includes full access to their online Flight Guide, which has some very nice features for weather and flight planning, in addition to all the airport information.

I spent over 20 minutes with the owner. He explained that the old books were simply not paying the bills. For every customer (like me) who swore they'd be willing to pay double to keep our small books, there were three or four people who were cancelling their subscriptions in order to go "all-digital."

The thin paper used in the old books is only available from a single, ever-more-expensive source. And most importantly of all, he explained to me the complicated and time-consuming process they had to use when creating and maintaining the book's content. It was ALL done manually, with a team of editors constantly moving page elements around a computer screen in order to fit all of it on those small pages. It was getting to be a technological and editorial nightmare. Plus, the data could not be imported or exported to/from an electronic database. It was 1980s technology being kept alive for a few die-hard customers (like me). The finished pages also had to be hand-collated(!) and hand-inserted into those cute little envlopes we all knew and loved. It was vary labor-intensive and complicated.

But they had to lay off more than half of their employees to make the economics of it work.

By contrast, the new books use a template that shares data between the online, electronic, and printed versions, so a change made on one page is made to all of them. The new process makes it easier on everyone involved -- users, too. The data presentation is now standardized across all platforms. The publishing is fast, streamlined, and much more automated, which allows them to charge less for the product.

I was very pleased with the explanation I got, and impressed with the company's concern for their customers. They are a family business, and they seem to have taken quite a bit of verbal abuse at Oshkosh this year from disgruntled customers. As my previous posting on this thread suggests, I was once a bit disgruntled myself, but after looking at the new, replacement guides, I have to say that I think they'll be just fine for me -- other than the fact that they are definitely bulkier if you want to carry the nationwide series of books with you.

BTW, I have no affiliation with the publishers at all. My comments are completely unsolicited. I just thought some folks would like a follow-up to this thread, since it seemed to inflame such passions earlier. :rolleyes:

I'm going to give the new books a try.
 
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OK Buck Thanks for the Report

I am sitting here with the same mailing offer that I assume you have. I'm still grumbling but maybe not as hard.

One thing I noticed in recent years is that the information is often out of date. It is possible that the efficiencies in editing may help but they have to get it right or all the other changes in production don't mean much in usefulness to the customer. The last time I flew into Prescott I may as well have flown into an airport in China.

Bob Axsom
 
Maybe I a missing something. I just renewed my order on their web site and was able to renew my old subscriptions with the small books. Just sayin.
 
I spent my 20 minutes having the same discussion. My issues are:

- the ability to remove the sheets and put them on my kneeboard instead of having to hold the book
- having to buy and carry two binders, no special deals for existing customers
- true, the book is sent once per year...but the updates that come out are sent to you on a sheet (he showed it to me) and you have to manually enter the new information on the sheets in your binder...at least that's what I understood.

All that being said, I'll give it a shot. We've had a long relationship and I owe them that much, I would expect the same. I was a little taken aback by the owners comment that "you have no other options but us, what else are you giong to do?"

As global business development manager for a big company, I've learned a lesson here...when you fundamentally change the product you sell, it might be a good idea to talk to your long(est) time customers to help you formulate a plan to avoid what happened to the Flight Guide folks.
 
Info

If you don't like the book, please feel free to email me. I use a small notebook computer, it has ALL the VFR and IFR stuff you need( seamless vfr sectional with zoom in and out), moving map coupled via a 40$ wireless Bluetooth gps displaying my position on all the maps (vfr, ifr and airport diagrams), touch screen, flightplan routing. I'm also the BETA tester for the company and all I can say is that.... In the future, the program will let you receive FREE something and free something else from ADSB that normally we pay 50 bucks a month for from the big guys and have another 1300$ antenna too to use. It will only use one antenna for both. All I know is that the big guys are really nervous because this company is about to knock a big dent in the other Guys' customer base. I worked for these guys during OSH and all I can say is that if you can't use this program, you shouldn't be operating any sort of unpowered tools ;)
http://www.essentialflight.us/
if you guys feel froggy, I still have the OSH promo code for you to use. Contact me and I'll fill you in.
 
New flight Guides

I also got to get my hands on the new Flight Guides. They actually had a mock-up there with blank pages but you could get an idea about how they look. I still like the concept as well as the size. I also have to say I like the fact that the update is a new book not a bunch of pages I have to put in the little brown books. The spiral bound books make it easier for me to handle than the little brown books even though you can't pull out a page like you could in the little brown binders.

I heard from the young man staffing the booth that there are now no more of the pages being shipped but rather your next shipment from them will be the new book. I stood next to a customer who was becoming somewhat belligerent with the young man staffing the booth when he told them that the little book refills would no longer be available. Tough economic times as well as competition from the EFB producers make the old paper products difficult to sustain.

From what I can tell, those of you due for an update will be receiving the new spiral bound volume as well as access to the online edition.

Give it a try. You might be surprised.

My $.02

Bill Near
 
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