Ironflight

Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
This will sound a bit harsh, but sometimes, we just have to talk straight. Aviation has been a part of my life since I was a kid, and I have lost friends due to mistakes made by them, and the mistakes of others. I have seen a lot of accidents, read about a lot of accidents, and investigated accidents. In general, we know what causes them, and usually, it is not the fault of the machine, but rather, the soft, squishy thing in the pilot?s seat. That?s the hard truth.

After every accident, we read reports from friends that tell us how great a person the pilot was. They were wonderful friends, caring parents, generous with their time, knowledgeable in their work. They were always willing to help others, built carefully, asked questions ? or answered the many questions of others. They were great at fly-ins, or in the evening at the hangar ? laughed a lot, were great promoters of aviation. In short ? they were great, nice people. They are frequently put out there as "role models", people to be emulated, pilots to be admired?

And still, they died. And their friends ?can?t understand how it happened?.?

Well, it?s usually pretty simple. Good guys ( nice guys, wonderful guys...) are not immune from doing something dumb! They made a mistake ? or more usually, a string of mistakes. They screwed up. Sometimes, it?s a single, tragic lapse of attention or error. More often, ?we all knew? it was coming. There is a whole list of character traits that are indicative of a person going down a path that can lead to an accident ? the list isn?t secret; you can find it in magazine articles, safety classes, and most pilot training programs. Yet still ? we see people all the time who we KNOW are going to go and do something stupid someday with an airplane. And we let them go. And when they die, we talk about what nice guys they were. Yeah, they were nice ? but they were also WRONG - and now they are DEAD! We need to stop deifying those who are not good examples, period.

I try to be a nice guy. In fact, if I am remembered for nothing else when I am gone, I would like people to remember me as a nice guy. But maybe sometimes, we have to be a little less ?nice?. Maybe we need to challenge one another, and when we see someone doing something dumb, we need to tell them so. We don?t have to be jerks about it. ?Hey Bill, you might already be aware of this, and I don?t want to sound like a know-it-all, but that fuel line looks awful short to me ? when the engine moves, it could pull that end right off!?

Aviation is dangerous, but no more dangerous than any other activity that accelerates a human being to speeds where they will be mush if they come to a sudden stop. What is more dangerous is bad judgment, and that is shameful. But what is more shameful is when we let bad judgment pass unchecked, and later talk about ?what a nice guy he was??.

Paul
 
Paul,

We were just discussing this recently. The course of action in the future will be telling somebody point blank "if you continue to do this, the likelihood of you dieing in your airplane is high". No sugar coating. I think if it happened to me I would get defensive at first, but after dark lying in my bed, I would give it some serious thought. We owe it to ourselves and GA in general if for no other reason that if people keep doing stupid things with such shocking regularity it will effect us all directly.
 
Thanks Paul.

We all will die, that is truth.

What we should be making a stronger effort is that ourselves and our comrades do not cease from life prematurely.

Their must be a balance between being cautious and being brazenly foolish.

Knowledge should be our mediator, and we better pay attention.

Thanks for sharing all your knowledge, reminders are just as important as the initial lessons.

I am getting closer to flying every day, and I feel like I cant wait, but I will.

Our patience may save someones life, most likely our own.:eek:
 
The Stall Warning is Very Clear on My Plane

After finally doing stall training, all my thoughts of installing a stick shaker fell away... The RV's have a built in stick shaker! (the ailerons buffet & shake the stick before you stall). There is no reason to stall these airplanes.

Hans
 
Paul the Overlord said:
Paul,

We were just discussing this recently. The course of action in the future will be telling somebody point blank "if you continue to do this, the likelihood of you dieing in your airplane is high". No sugar coating. I think if it happened to me I would get defensive at first, but after dark lying in my bed, I would give it some serious thought. We owe it to ourselves and GA in general if for no other reason that if people keep doing stupid things with such shocking regularity it will effect us all directly.
Click to expand...

In my role as flight advisor I have unfortunately come across a few individuals who just would not listen to anyone. Several people usually did tell them point blank that they were way out on the risk spectrum but they some how knew better. Unfortunately I don't think there is any help for that type of personality. We have all known them, and unfortunately for their friends and families they are no longer with us. I wish it could be different, but it doesn't seem to be.

Gary Specketer
RV10 flying
Flight Advisor, Tech Counselor
 
Paul & Paul; I understand your point, but...

It is very much easier to say afterwords that (I/you/we) should have made a better effort at setting someone straight. We should protect the our follow aviators, but at what cost.
Just because someone looks at risks different that I, I can't be telling them that they are wrong. It is just that it would be wrong for me to do that.

Don't know the right answer is, it just that each of us need to judge for ourselves what is correct.

Kent
 
nucleus said:
After finally doing stall training, all my thoughts of installing a stick shaker fell away... The RV's have a built in stick shaker! (the ailerons buffet & shake the stick before you stall). There is no reason to stall these airplanes.

Hans
Click to expand...

totally agree, than again, how many actually do the stalls? After reading the post on the RV10, I wonder how many people actually do any test for themselves. I hope that was an isolated incident with a pilot that was to lazy to do anything. Some of the fun of flying my airplane in phase1 was doing my stall test. I really liked the stalls that were on a turn, drop out and went level and shake shake shake, shake my booty. Nice airplane, got to love it.
 
I too have seen friends die from doing stupid airplane things AFTER I told them to stop. They just stopped talking to me, but I can live with that. It has been my experience that people with these types of personalities exhibit the same traits outside of flying as well, and we most likely aren't the only ones trying to change/affect a behavior. Of course, being pilots we think everyone should listen to us. :) At the end of the day I have to feel that I can look myself in the mirror and know I tried. After that, it is up to the individual.
 
Thanks Paul for sharing your thought

I'm very impressed about yor considerations because .... they are true.

As a mountain climber I'm used to break the chain of mistakes and I try to do the same in aviation, sometimes people don't agree but I fly because I love it not because I'm brave!

On july, 12 I'll be the spokesman in a italian eaa chapter meeting about safety aviation and experimental first flight and test program, I'll use your thought as a good start point.

Thanks Paul.
 
Be Slow to Criticize others

I certainly understand what you are saying Paul and I agree with you for the most part, but you and I and all the other RVer's and pilots throughout the world are "nice guys".

My point being that I am always slow to criticize because I know that no matter how careful, safe, cautious, and self smart I think I am being, I assume a certain amount of inherent risk when I go flying. I hope this never happens, but I could potentially have a very bad day, one that I thought would never happen. There are countless aviators who have far more experience than I/us that have unfortunately perished due to various circumstances.

Now, having said that, I truly believe that much of the risk can be mitigated.
I really believe that. But, aviation is at times unforgiving, even when we think we bring our "A" game. Obviously, we can all speak up when we see unsafe practices.

Fly safe out there.
 
Nice Guys die too

It's really hard to confront a pilot who is well known on the field, with tons of hours, who has flown just about everything built, and who everyone looks up to as a "really experiannced" good old boy who everyone likes. I am facing this situation now. This good old boy has only 9 hours on his new RV and tried to get me to go with him to a dawn patrol breakfast about 60 miles away. I politely turned him down and created an excuse as to why I had to be some place else. He did go and nothing happened. After today, no more excuses, only the truth. Sorry good old boy, I won't fly with you if you dont follow the rules and fly safe.
 
I agree that it can be hard to criticize others, and even when you do, they very well might not listen to you. And sometimes, as pointed out, we may not even be smart enough to criticize others (they might have a very good reason for doing what they are doing that we might not understand). But in the end, that is not my point.

The point is....who we choose as role models. There are thousands of people who look at those more experienced as role models. We, as a community, can set the standards for role models by accepting or rejecting their behavior. If we allow those with poor judgement (as evidenced by their actions and results) to be used as role models, we have failed everyone looking to learn.

It is true that "There are countless aviators who have far more experience than I/us that have unfortunately perished due to various circumstances." Unfortuantely, the statistics show that most of those circumstances were of their own making. Those are just facts.

Every individual has the right to accept whatever risks they wish for themselves - but they do not have the right to put others at risk without their knowledge and informed consent. And that includes those who might be emulating their actions.

Paul
 
I will make no excuses for those that do dumb things. We have all been trained, we all claim to be good pilots, and we all for the most part keep working to improve our skills...but i think all of us have made really dumb decisions at one time or another. Be honest here.

In aviation like motorcycles, or like snowmobilers or backcountry down hill skiers, or any other "riskier" hobby when we love the speed and the freedom there is always a price someone pays. We just go one hoping its not us. I know many guys who are quick to cut up a guy getting caught for a dui, or talking trash about some student that killed a friend after a night at the bar..but many of those same guys drove home once or twice in their lives when they really shouldnt have. It could have just as easily been them...just the luck of the draw and you learn from your dumb mistakes.

Make educated choices, know when to walk back to the car, know when to take another training/upgrade flight, know when to ask for help/advice...and live your life to the fullest and hope that is enough.

RV's are great machines, have a blast...just keep your head on straight and your fingers crossed.
 
I don't mind being a jerk when somebody is doing something stupid. I have to do it weekly in my job. If they get mad at me "Oh well!"
 
I will be hammered for this one....

but it has to be said. Some people do not belong in an airplane. Period.

Nice guys do die in this business for all kinds of reasons. It could happen to anyone no matter what his back ground because sitting in a moving airplane is risky any day, any where. We attempt to manage the risk from assessing the risk of every flight before take off to not believing anything could go wrong.

It is my belief for many years that there are people born to fly and there are people flying who were not born to be there. Some even make it into the left seat of a major airline and except for the money and days off, hate it. People born to fly will do it for nothing, they simply love it.

Same holds true in general and experimental aviation. There are people here who were sold an image or a product not ever having a desire to fly except it seemed like a cool thing to do. It is they who do some of the dumbest things, not ever knowing or believing how dangerous it can be. They frequently know it all and will pay no heed to sound advice from anyone.

If a person was meant to fly he will fly no matter what. If he was not meant to fly it is better that he doesn't because this is not like riding a bike, it is not a casual endeavor, it is not something you do once a month, and above all, it requires a sense of continuous self criticism. Some personalities are most reluctant to be self critical, reluctant to accept advise and that is a major problem.
 
No hammering from here..

David, Like you, I did the aviation thing for money and have seen plenty of cases like the ones you describe. It is almost worse in GA, as a CFI I had a couple of students that needed to be washed out/fired. Hard to do in for money flight instruction. I once gave up on a student. nice guy, intelligent, big ego, and hopeless in an airplane. I refused to solo him, and frankly felt like I had failed as an instructor. That ended when, after another instructor signed him off for solo, he wrecked an airplane in a light crosswind.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Paul, great post (as usual). Had to be said and totally true IMO. Some people just bend or break every rule they can it seems. Usually it catches up with them at some point. Many of these pilots exhibit personality traits which make them also show poor judgment time after time in aircraft until...

David- yep couldn't agree more.

It is very hard to talk to a friend sometimes about risk and judgment, easier to tactfully bring to light a mechanical issue like Paul mentioned perhaps. We should be doing more of both. When I fly with another pilot, I usually ask him during the passenger briefing to point out anything I'm getting sloppy with. I want to know how I can improve.
 
We're all going to "go" sometime. The trick is not to go early by doing something stupid, and there are plenty of examples of aviators (and others) doing just that.

I'm happy that I live in a (mostly) free country where I'm allowed to take risks that I deem appropriate. However, if you take risks, please evaluate the risk to others as well and try not to endanger them.

TODR
 
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I hope that I misunderstood...

In regards to some comments on stalls. Everyone needs to do stalls on a routine basis. Even though these planes stall very nicely. The pilot needs to practice the stall recovery after phase I.

Kent
 
Paul K said:
It's really hard to confront a pilot who is well known on the field, with tons of hours, who has flown just about everything built, and who everyone looks up to as a "really experiannced" good old boy who everyone likes. I am facing this situation now. This good old boy has only 9 hours on his new RV and tried to get me to go with him to a dawn patrol breakfast about 60 miles away. I politely turned him down and created an excuse as to why I had to be some place else. He did go and nothing happened. After today, no more excuses, only the truth. Sorry good old boy, I won't fly with you if you dont follow the rules and fly safe.
Click to expand...

I am generally pretty blunt with people when I know they are doing this sort of thing (or any other rule breaking that reflects poorly on us pilots and homebuilders but RV builders in particular). I don't care who they are.
I tell them that I don't appreciate them blatantly breaking the rules because of the repercussions it can have on me and others like me.
As demonstrated time and time again...if Government decides that the current rules are not being followed, the solution is to make more rules (or further toughen the current ones).
It is in all our best interests to point out to others that the rules are not just for "everybody else", and if they will not follow them it will effect "everybody else".
 
kentb said:
In regards to some comments on stalls. Everyone needs to do stalls on a routine basis. Even though these planes stall very nicely. The pilot needs to practice the stall recovery after phase I.

Kent
Click to expand...

Another comment on a killer stall.....tailwind on base can set a pilot for a deadly low altitude pattern stall. They overfly the final, try to turn back to correct for the overshoot and down they go.
 
Skidding...

Webb said:
Another comment on a killer stall.....tailwind on base can set a pilot for a deadly low altitude pattern stall. They overfly the final, try to turn back to correct for the overshoot and down they go.
Click to expand...

Usually by skidding the turn, guaranteeing a spin entry. YIKES!

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
I agree with Paul, we need to "encourage" safety. Problem is, who will listen? I have found it easier to correct someone (anyone) if you have praised them from time to time. Even if it is just how nice and clean their plane is, it builds a respect for your opinion. Also, I would never do it in front of someone else, unless timeliness demanded it. I don't want these fine folks to end up like dirty rags and cat's meat, but I really don't want them so p....d at me they won't listen. I have been guilty of that far too often...

Bob Kelly
 
Every individual has the right to accept whatever risks they wish for themselves - but they do not have the right to put others at risk without their knowledge and informed consent. And that includes those who might be emulating their actions.
Click to expand...

If I am misunderstanding the statement above please forgive me, but I'm having a problem with the premise. I strongly agree with the first portion, that each person has the RIGHT to accept risks for THEMSELVES. But then it seem to say that the RIGHT to accept risk for oneself becomes nullified (i.e. is LOST) if there is a possibility that others may emulate the behavior, because in so doing the risk taking person is putting the would-be emulators at risk (without their consent). It seems that the second point directly contradicts the first. If my so-called RIGHT to take a risk for MYSELF is lost if/when someone else (who by definition is outside of my control) MIGHT emulate my behavior, then all I can say is that we're now torturing the definition of what a RIGHT is!

There is a principle known as PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY... I know, it's one that is not terribly popular in today's culture. We reason away, rationalize and blame, and even litigate anyone/everyone to exempt ourselves from confronting the pesky but profound truth that we and WE ALONE are responsible for our OWN ACTIONS AND DECISIONS.

In my life I've been involved in ski racing, hang gliding, technical rock climbing, motorcycling, professional fighting, flying sailplanes and other more "noisy" contraptions. I have always been an advocate and supporter of risk management thinking and behavior when engaging in risk-oriented activities. It is usually well intended to speak of role models and how they may influence the behavior in others. But it is misguied in my view because it deflects from the sober fact that we must each accept the responsibility and consequences for the smart/good and dumb/bad things we CHOOSE to do. Choose is the operative word. The sooner we accept this and act accordingly the better off (and safer) we will be!!
 
I think you read too much in to my short statement Bill - I agree 100% with you about personal responsibility. Let me explain my statement in a simple and blunt fashion.

A person has the RIGHT to go driving through his own cow pasture completely and totally stinking drunk, as long as there is no possibility whatsoever that he can endanger another person. He DOES NOT have the right to go out on the highway in the same condition and put UNSUSPECTING people at risk - they have not signed up to the risk, and in fact are not aware of it.

To put it in aviation terms, you can go out and do anything you want in an airplane solo in a deserted area...but do stupid stuff over a populated area, or with a passenger who hasn't been informed of the riskiness - I judge that as unacceptable. you may not - it is my own moral judgment.

Paul
 
Paul - thanks for getting this thread going. It's something we all need to have at the front of our minds. I recently had a very positive experience with respect to sharing aviation knowledge. A fellow EAA chapter member was about to have his aircraft go through final inspection prior to having its airworthiness certificate issued. This aircraft had been 24 years in the making and is an absolute beauty to behold. Still, I asked the builder if he wanted me to pass a critical eye over the aircraft in hopes of having the aircraft at least one step closer to perfection.

Now here's where the magic began. The builder welcomed my offer and encouraged me to be as thorough as I could be. When I found a couple of extremely minor items (believe me, I had to look hard to find them - this airplane is extremely well built) the builder immediately set about correcting them. When I was done he thanked me profusely.

Now that's the way things should be done - if only we could all be as humble and open-minded as this particular builder.

Oh, by the way... The official inspector found two snags on the aircraft as a result of a change in the rules regarding acceptability of a particular fastener in a particular application. Both the builder and I learned from this experience. Believe me, it was a huge pleasure to be the first to shake the builders hand following the successful final inspection. After going through this process we knew first flight was likely to be uneventful, and it was!
 
Totally agree Paul!

A few months back I had the "opportunity" to help a lady pilot begin her IFR flight training...she had about 80 hoursTT..She did Ok right up until we came back to the pattern to practice some landings.

Some of the worse flying I have ever seen..Never looked at the ASi once despite repeated reminders..Stall warning chirped a couple of times but still seemed oblivious.

After we landed we talked about it and it was clear she had had some prior near misses by applying full power with full flaps with the stall horn going off in a 172..She had no idea how close to pancake land she was becoming.

I became so worried about her (and her attitude of "Frank you need to be quiet and just let me fly"), that I felt she wa not safe by herself in an airplane..I then heard she was offering to take some non pilot friends flying....Thats where I drew the line.

reluctantly I sent an email to the director of her flying club suggesting that she needed time with a CFI and in my opinion she was a smoking hole looking for a place to happen.

Needless to say she was grounded immediately pending a check ride and she subsequently bawled me out because I didn't know what I was talking about.

i think my actions were justified but to took me waay too long to have a higher power intervene..in retrospect.

having gone through this once I will have much less hesitation next time.

But discouraging somebody is something I absolutely hate having to do.

Cheers

Frank
 
Paul,

I completely agree with your "simple and blunt version", and my moral compass is sympatico with yours. Certainly we do not have the right to act in a manner that puts others at risk when they are neither informed or willing participants in the endeavor (aviation related or otherwise). We are talking now about "innocent bystanders", and one would not expect reasonable and responsible people to disagree with that.

And to be clear, I am not excusing or defending reckless or inappropriate behavior, such as driving drunk (through a corn field or anywhere else) or picking needles off of Saguaro cactus with a wingtip! I just think we have to be careful about assigning or imputing responsibility to some people (e.g. those that we might call role models) for the actions and choices of others. And I thought that that is what you were implying. Again, if I misread ya....sorry!! :D
 
A local business man in my small town and a flying friend took chances on a regular basis when flying. He was a very influential person and very smart in business. His route of flight came close to my house when he was flying back and forth to work. I had seen him fly in weather I wouldn't drive a car in. He lived about 50 miles from me and used a private grass strip. I thought several times about saying something to him about his flying habits but never did mostly because I knew he would not have listened. His last flight was on a terribly windy rainy night in a twin. He tried to land on the grass strip close to his home but couldn't stop in time and sheared off the wings in the trees at the end of the strip. His plane burned with him trapped inside. He left a wife and teenage son. I knew in my heart someday this would happen. I wish there was some way I could have made him understand how dangerous his flying was but there are some people you just can't reach.
 
Psychology of a scary pilot..

Paul, You do bring up the big elephant issues!
After attending too many funerals of friends and fellow pilots, It is something I confront in the mirror, and some time, in front of local pilots. Frank has this correct. The 172 experience is a blatant example of the lack of real self-examination. The reaction of anger and then slam-door psychology is exactly the wrong temperament of a good future pilot. Some things can be overcome by training and experience. But some temperaments can?t.
I have had my ego SMACKED by a good instructor. That is a really good thing! And it will never be as hard as the ground!
I believe this is reasonability within our community of pilots- For all you GA pilots with experience out there; We owe it to each other to be blunt! - there is little room for anything else!
 
beyond weather and fuel

It would be pretty interesting to see the data that insurance companies have collected and how they determine risk on RV's. Once getting past the typical weather and fuel exhaustion issues that are shared with all of GA, how many RV specific problems are actually on their radar.
 
Statistics

Bryan Wood said:
It would be pretty interesting to see the data that insurance companies have collected and how they determine risk on RV's. Once getting past the typical weather and fuel exhaustion issues that are shared with all of GA, how many RV specific problems are actually on their radar.
Click to expand...

The AOPA Air Safety Foundation publishes a report every year covering these statistics. You need to do some number crunching to make comparisons as they deal in the number of accidents, not the percentages. I have been fiddling with getting the fleet numbers and coming up with some meaningful numbers. Here is the link to the report:

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/08nall.pdf

John S. Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV-8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Being in Alaska I have a few thoughts on this:

1. One persons sip is another persons gulp. I have been told that flying single engine IFR is absolutely insane. Surely this person was just trying to protect me, but what if I'm willing to take that risk? Others certainly are.

2. Some people think that safety comes in a very expensive box that says lycoming on the side? What about those who don't give any room to auto conversions?

3. Some people wouldn't dream of landing off airport, where up here, many haven't touched pavement in years.

The point I'm making is that this conversation is all centered around risk and being bold enough to point it out to a fellow pilot, however, some people think that anything beyond flying in a straight line on a perfect day is too risky.

I think the better solution is for all of us pilots to really take a step back and really think about our limits and what we are able/willing to do and not go beyond those limits. Because pilot skill is so varied, we need to make sure we are up to whatever situation we put ourselves in, but also understand that there are those around us with both more and less skill.

schu
 
It's all in the training..

...as Schu mentions.

We have Ag schools, where I spent 6 weeks learning the ins and outs including the chemical mixing, and recurrency training, thanks to our PAASS program.

We have aerobatic schools and one of the most interesting, JAARS (Jungle aviation and Radio support), up in Waxhaw, N.C. (just south of Charlotte), where the missionary pilots supporting the Wycliffe Bible translators learn to fly Helio Couriers and Skywagons off 700' strips. They land on undulating uphill/downhill, one-way-in, one-way-out strips we'd never even consider. They do it routinely in many parts of the awfully unforgiving third world areas, with great success. They also give tours and a very good day trip to tour their facilities.

The point here is that when you are properly trained in whatever endeavor you choose, the outcome will be so much more likely to be successful.

Self-taught low level aerobatics comes to mind, and we've already read some of the reports here. Get trained in low-level aerobatics if that's your leaning....go to Ag school if you want to spray crops. All these hazardous appearing activities need not necessarily be so. I'm in my 39th year of ag work at a few feet above the crops at 140 MPH or so, with an above gross airplane, but I was trained for that.

Just don't go where you shouldn't and you'll be fine.

Regards,
 
Fuel Exhaustion

Bryan Wood said:
It would be pretty interesting to see the data that insurance companies have collected and how they determine risk on RV's. Once getting past the typical weather and fuel exhaustion issues that are shared with all of GA, how many RV specific problems are actually on their radar.
Click to expand...

Two days ago at our airdrome (KDYB), a Bonanza landed with 3 gallons of fuel remaining. Our airport had been notamed closed due to runway / ramp re-surfacing. His partner had just flown the aircraft before him leaving less than full fuel in the tanks. The pilot estimated he had enough fuel for the short flight between KCAE and KDYB only to discover men & equipment on the single runway at KDYB. Despite the fact the airport closure was also announced on AWOS, he pressed on and landed on the taxiway.
 
Low Level Aerobatics

pierre smith said:
...
The point here is that when you are properly trained in whatever endeavor you choose, the outcome will be so much more likely to be successful.

Self-taught low level aerobatics comes to mind, and we've already read some of the reports here. Get trained in low-level aerobatics if that's your leaning....go to Ag school if you want to spray crops. All these hazardous appearing activities need not necessarily be so. I'm in my 39th year of ag work at a few feet above the crops at 140 MPH or so, with an above gross airplane, but I was trained for that.

Just don't go where you shouldn't and you'll be fine.

Regards,
Click to expand...

If you haven?t had a chance to read Julie Clark?s book about her life challenges and career, please do pick up a copy. In the book?s appendix, she lists the names of the professional low altitude air show performers, all friends of hers, who have lost their life during performances. I forgot the exact number of fatalities, but the list was about 65 names long.
 
DAGO said:
If you haven?t had a chance to read Julie Clark?s book about her life challenges and career, please do pick up a copy. In the book?s appendix, she lists the names of the professional low altitude air show performers, all friends of hers, who have lost their life during performances. I forgot the exact number of fatalities, but the list was about 65 names long.
Click to expand...

"You can only tie the record for low level flight." - Unknown
 
Huh? In the spirit of Paul's note, I've gotta say it...

nucleus said:
After finally doing stall training, all my thoughts of installing a stick shaker fell away... The RV's have a built in stick shaker! (the ailerons buffet & shake the stick before you stall). There is no reason to stall these airplanes.

Hans
Click to expand...

Hans, if you're saying you never plan to stall your RV6A just because you did it once and got a shake -- well, in the spirit of Paul's original post, I've gotta say it... That's a REAL dangerous attitude.

First of all, if your 6A gave any appreciable stall warning on your one attempt, it was probably a fluke and could even mean that something isn't rigged right. There is no washout in the RV wing, so the vast majority of RV6's give no warning whatsoever. The only time I ever got a shake in mine was when the ball was half out -- and when it broke, it spun.

Second of all, if you're not practicing stall recovery, the movements won't be second nature when you need it. The whole idea is to train your body to react so that you don't have to remember what to do.

And in the third place, if you think a stall can't sneak up on you in an RV, you're whistling past the graveyard. You'll eventually get use to that ridiculous angle of attack at low speed and not notice it when you need to.

Case in point:

I was downwind following a Cub into SWRFI a few years ago, with my head out of the plane watching the cub and the pattern and the show instead of my airspeed. As I turned base, my STALL WARNING LIGHT lit up and probably saved my bacon. I'd gotten was down to 55 mph following that Cub and hadn't even noticed it.
 
The personality types that don't belong here stand out like a sore thumb to me. Rogue, self-absorbed, impatient, shallow, and careless all come to mind (but there's many more that fit the bill)

I have a few dead friends/acquaintances:

#1. Rogue and careless. Several of us seriously talked to him after we knew he was the "type". Snap rolled a Laser into the ground.
#2. Self absorbed: Underperformed in UPT, but was slotted to go to an A7 guard unit. He was the type who only wanted to strap a blow-torch to his butt and go say "hey look at me". He graduated pilot training, but didn't last 6 months in the A7.
#3. Careless: Tore the wings off an RV3 while doing an over the top type of maneuver. The plane never got the mandatory wing strengthing mods, which had been available for several years.

Only thing I'd like to add is, be VERY VERY careful who you ride with. Some of the "nice guys" Paul mentioned aren't running a tight ship at all in their flying endeavors. If in doubt, steer clear.
 
I hate posting because I?ve learned there?s nothing to be gained, only offered. However, the slant of this post prompted me? once again.

Those who spout ?Let freedom ring? and recite the pledge want to impose their judgments on others. Bad idea. In any form, BAD IDEA. You warn others to be careful, yet would be appalled by a similar warning to be careless. It?s not the message, it?s the warning. Keep it to yourself.

I believe in getting the most out of life, an airplane, a marriage, a career, a vacation? you name it. To ?be careful? leaves too much unexplored envelope for me. I view it as a waste of a resource. Straight and level to nowhere.

It?s why courageous conquerors are celebrated and careful safety freaks are forgotten as ?men of no particular merit?.

akschu and Pierre nailed it. Just because you don?t want me to die doesn?t mean you should burden me with the judgments you?ve made. You may laugh last, but I?ll live best, thank you.

There are worse things than dying. Not living FULLY is at the top of MY list. And most people think I'm a nice guy.
 
Huh!

ProCoach said:
I hate posting because I?ve learned there?s nothing to be gained, only offered. However, the slant of this post prompted me? once again.

Those who spout ?Let freedom ring? and recite the pledge want to impose their judgments on others. Bad idea. In any form, BAD IDEA. You warn others to be careful, yet would be appalled by a similar warning to be careless. It?s not the message, it?s the warning. Keep it to yourself.

I believe in getting the most out of life, an airplane, a marriage, a career, a vacation? you name it. To ?be careful? leaves too much unexplored envelope for me. I view it as a waste of a resource. Straight and level to nowhere.

It?s why courageous conquerors are celebrated and careful safety freaks are forgotten as ?men of no particular merit?.

akschu and Pierre nailed it. Just because you don?t want me to die doesn?t mean you should burden me with the judgments you?ve made. You may laugh last, but I?ll live best, thank you.

There are worse things than dying. Not living FULLY is at the top of MY list. And most people think I'm a nice guy.
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Your first sentence perks my ears up. So the only reason for you to state anything is if you personally gain something from your own words?

Ok, so what are you "gaining" from this post? What is your point? That you live your life how you want regardless of the risk? That no one should be telling you how to live that life? If so, I don't understand the reason for this post on this thread.

I think the context of the original post was to suggest that we all need to be willing to discuss risky behavior with those who are behaving in a risky manner.

Power to you, for living your life your way. Go for it. But what does telling everyone: "You will live your life the way you want, thank you very much!" have to do with this topic? Unless you want to tell us all to mind our own business.
 
I don't think you have to worry about the nice part.

Ironflight said:
But maybe sometimes, we have to be a little less ?nice?.
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Gee, every time an accident happens, I observe that pilots are usually the strongest critics. It seems to go beyond just learning from someone else's mistakes, which would be good and healthy. Maybe there's something in our nature as humans that we feel safer and smarter about ourselves if we can justify what an idiot the dead guy is.

With 1000's on this list of varying builder and pilot skills and standards, you can be assured that your loosely crimped wire or your fateful decision to fly under some condition will one day be judged just as harshly. Thankfully, there are those who learn from their own and other's mistakes without bashing somebody in the head with their personal version of the aviation bible.
 
ProCoach said:
It?s why courageous conquerors are celebrated and careful safety freaks are forgotten as ?men of no particular merit?.

akschu and Pierre nailed it. Just because you don?t want me to die doesn?t mean you should burden me with the judgments you?ve made. You may laugh last, but I?ll live best, thank you.
.
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"Pro" -

I think that you have still sort of missed the point. I actually don't care one bit whether or not you live or die - that's completely your choice, and up to you.

What I AM concerned with is those who contribute to someone else's death through encouraging them to do things beyond their skill or experience by setting a bad example.

(Oh, and just because someone raises a safety discussion doesn't make them a "freak" - some of them even turn out to be men of merit.)

Paul
 
Case in point

It was a bad day here in the ozarks. A Piper Lance with 5 or 6 people aboard
Left Gastons resort in the heat of the day with lots of luggage. It made it about a half mile wallowing trying to get airborn and went through a fence and then into trees. Three people died and the other 2 or 3 were hurt. I don't know what the density altitude was but it had to be way up there. I can imagine there were several contributing factors that led up to this tragedy but besides the pilot two innocent people died and many other family members are mourning.

Thanks Paul for making me think!
 
Not sure if I can fully express this idea of mine succinctly, but I'll try.

BLUF: I think that ground speed zero is the time to be thinking about this stuff, because once you have some air between you and Earth, decision making is negatively affected.

First, I'll draw a corollary in reference to drinking and driving. If one doesn't absolutely decide what the plan is to get home before one starts drinking, then it is impossible to make completely rational decisions later on...the alcohol is affecting one's decisions making capability.

Now related to RVs. Unless one decides what is acceptable and not acceptable flight behavior before becoming airborne, then it?s impossible to make completely rational decisions?the experience of flight is affecting one?s decisions.

I could go on a bit and provide a couple examples, but I said I?d try to make this succinct. Of course these are generalizations that have exceptions, but it?s something I?ve been trying to get my brain around since two of my troops got DUI?s at work.

Thanks for reading my ramblings? FLY SAFE!

-Jim
 
ProCoach said:
I hate posting because I’ve learned there’s nothing to be gained, only offered. However, the slant of this post prompted me… once again.

Those who spout “Let freedom ring” and recite the pledge want to impose their judgments on others. Bad idea. In any form, BAD IDEA. You warn others to be careful, yet would be appalled by a similar warning to be careless. It’s not the message, it’s the warning. Keep it to yourself.

I believe in getting the most out of life, an airplane, a marriage, a career, a vacation… you name it. To “be careful” leaves too much unexplored envelope for me. I view it as a waste of a resource. Straight and level to nowhere.

It’s why courageous conquerors are celebrated and careful safety freaks are forgotten as “men of no particular merit”.

akschu and Pierre nailed it. Just because you don’t want me to die doesn’t mean you should burden me with the judgments you’ve made. You may laugh last, but I’ll live best, thank you.

There are worse things than dying. Not living FULLY is at the top of MY list. And most people think I'm a nice guy.
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Procoach -

Since this thread is about the tragic end of a story filled with mistakes, your message infers Dan Lloyd was living life to its fullest. That's ridiculous.

There is nothing courageous about going blindly forward where others have gone before and proven or disproven the outcome. If the outcome is as predictable as this one was, the conqueror has conquered nothing except he brought much grief to his friends and family. Nothing has been proven except once again, this business can be very unforgiving for any act of carelessness, incapacity or neglect - words we have all read before.

Your remark "courageous conquerors are celebrated and careful safety freaks are forgotten as men of no particular merit" is in rather bad taste. No pilot here who has built and flown his own airplane lacks courage. And no pilot here who has done so successfully by using the advice of tech and flight advisors deserves to be labeled a safety freak because he wishes to survive the event.

As any experienced old pilot will attest to, the line between surviving and dying in an airplane is very thin. Most have gone near that line more than once - not being courageous but just trying to keep the thing straight and level - and have by wit or luck stepped back from it. We suffer the risk of dying in these machines due to circumstances beyond our control with every flight. When it comes to controllable circumstances, it makes no sense to ignore warning signs even if they come from your worst antagonist. At the very least, process those alerts for their merit. No one knows everything all the time.

Courageous conquerors are just that only as long they survive. If you don't survive, you are dead, gone and almost always forgotten quick. They close out your accounts, give your money away and your wife marries someone else. if you're lucky, you get a 2x2 headstone with name and date of birth and death. You may be remembered by friends and family as a nice guy, that courageous conqueror living life to the fullest, but never as a smart pilot.
 
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Eloquently put Dave. The only think I would respond to is:
David-aviator said:
Since this thread is about the tragic end of a story filled with mistakes, .
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In truth, while that current thread did obviously prompt my thoughts, this thread is truly about a number of high-profile accidents and incidents over the past year or two (or three)....not just the most recent report.

Paul
 
David-aviator said:
There is nothing courageous about going blindly forward where others have gone before and proven or disproven the outcome. If the outcome is as predictable as this one was, the conqueror has conquered nothing except he brought much grief to his friends and family
Click to expand...

I agree with Dave
Big difference in "boldly going where no man has gone before" and "boldly repeating another man's mistakes"
 
Ironflight said:
"Pro" -

I think that you have still sort of missed the point. I actually don't care one bit whether or not you live or die - that's completely your choice, and up to you.
Paul
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I care. I'm Completely speechless. :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

Edit... Maybe this is an indication of how an actual flying intervention would go. Maybe we should just watch from afar.
 
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