w1curtis said:
Most accidents aren't caused by a single mistake but a chain of mistakes or bad events. Yes we all make mistakes and I'm all for anything that would reduce those critical errors. For me, that is not synthetic vision. A 2D overhead view offers much more topographical.
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IMO, You need both views. However, after so many years of flight simulations with very accurate topography.....................3D wins! Afterall, I live and fly in mountain country. The "highways in the sky" can be excellent for IFR approaches. There is a good reason that GulfStream has gone 3D in addition to it's night vision cameras. Paul Dye also wrote an excellent piece on flying 3D approaches with a Honeywell sytem a few months back. You could do the whole approach without a chart. Knew exactly when to throw the flaps out, too. Afterall, it looked like flying in day time, while the simulated view out the glass, was pure IMC.

Just today, the whole lower 1/3rd of our mountains were covered with a thick haze. The freeway to follow that defines Class B airspace and the un-controlled airport were out of sight. The 2D GPS worked well, but a 3D would have been even better.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
bad timing??

This may end up being bad timing for me, and others at around the same stage. I could probably start working on my panel any time in the next 6 months. It's even possible I could be flying by spring 2010. Now I have a dilemna. I don't want to buy Dynon's current stuff now, because the new stuff looks way too cool. But if I wait this may drag out my completion... they're saying 2009 now, but I could easily see that turning into 2010.

So what's my best option? Right now I'm seriously wondering about just drawing a big rectangle where the dynon will eventually go, and doing a panel full of backup 2.25" steam guages (for everythign, including engine instruments) around this. Fly with this panel, and when the Dynon comes out pull out the panel and start wiring it up. The steam guages then become a complete backup system.

Of course, steam guages for engine instruments don't let me record flight data for later analysis, which would be nice during flight testing...
 
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This is an on going delima.

No matter how long you wait, shortly after your decision is irreversible, something new will come along. At some point, you just have to decide!
 
No matter how long you wait, shortly after your decision is irreversible, something new will come along. At some point, you just have to decide!
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While that's very true in general, this is rather an extreme case. A radically improved system announced, that could be arriving around the time I want to finish, but that could potentially take much longer. I bet they're not going to sell nearly as many of their existing lineup now that they've announced the new stuff.

I'm doing the calculations now for a day VFR panel with 2.25" steam guages. Looks like it can be done very inexpensively and without too much panel space (save that real-estate for the new Dynon when it comes out). The trickiest part is the altimeter, not many choices for 2.25". But for day-vfr a UMA single-pointer should do the trick.
 
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Phil,

Why don't you check out Dynon's forum or better yet, give them a call and talk to someone in sales.

They will give you a release schedule, etc.

With luck, you can buy the trays and wiring harness early, install those, and just pop in the EFIS when they release them.
 
I did... the response was taht this product is still in early stages of development. No builder headstart materials available, and they don't know when they will be available. Exact dimensions of products not even known yet. Hence I'm taking "2009" with a grain of salt.
 
Dynon

that is true. Every time you buy something or get to the point where its irreversible something better comes out. I have my panel almost complete with GRT HS sports and now all this Syn. Vision stuff is coming along and getting cheap. My panel will be outdated by the time my plane flys in a few months.
 
Hey Phil,

Just a thought here...with a caveat: I'm no avionics guru, so best to talk this out long with Dynon (and maybe Stein or others too!) to see if it's feasible and cost-effective.

What if you drew that rectangle for the NexGen Dynon you want, then plug a D180 into the middle of it, and build the rest of your panel around the capabilities you want when you have the NexGen EFIS in. Per Dynon, the new stuff will be bigger, so you could expand the hole for it, but you'd have to check on D180 mounting screw holes and how that would impact this idea, and everything behind the panel would have to be planned and built around where the future Dynon black boxes (and all the wiring that goes with them) will mount.

Per Dynon, the EMS probes and sensors for the 180 (and the AP servos) will plug into the NexGen stuff, so you'd only have to do those once. However, things like the magnatometer will not be forward compatible, so there are things to discuss with Dynon as to what would be the smartest way to go.

But this might allow you to build and fly with a solid upgrade plan, allow you to ditch the steam engine guages completely (and not have to cover or fill the holes for them later) and then have less worries about the timing of the release for all aspects of the NexGen product(s). Dynon's site says that there will be an upgrade option, and I'll bet (IMHO) that there may also be a market for good used D180's down the road.

Just thoughts, as I said. The tricky part will be to do it in a way that you only have to do most of the stuff one time, rather than start over.

I made a big shift in mid-panel upgrade when Dynon announced the new AP, so I feel your pain (and exhilaration). Of course now Garmin announced the 696, but I'm done (for now ;)) and my 396 will have to do (dagnabit!) :) Who knows what'll be next!

Good luck with all the decisions!!

Cheers,
Bob
 
Hi Phil,

If you're getting that close on your panel, follow this advice and don't look back. Pick what you like TODAY and pick what you like that is available TODAY. For the past year or two mfgrs have not been good at even gross guesstimates for their "new releases" or products. Not just Dynon, but almost every mfgr runs into things the cause the release to be delayed. Many beyond their control. From my standpoint I'll say what I've said over and over and over again. If it's not available, don't pretend it "will be" anytime soon (or even near the date that the guys on the phone/internet tell you), because the mfgrs are getting worse, not better about delivering new products to their own advertised schedules. I know their goal is to sell units and get people excited about new stuff, but jeez...it's getting worse every year.

Anyway, the new products are sure to be neat, really functional and nice. But, unless they actually exist and you can order one, they just don't exist to me! True, no matter what you pick it'll be outdated before you fly, because something "newer, better, faster, cheaper, brighter, nicer, etc.." will come around the bend - so you'll never keep up. No doubt Dynon will in fact deliver their new system sometime (maybe early maybe late), but until they are ready to actually ship them I won't consider them an option.

I'll guarantee you one thing, the next 12 months will bring even more changes to the EFISes available to all of us!

Pick what you like and don't be upset that something better comes out because no matter what you pick, something newer will be "announced".

My 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein
 
Panel

Phil,
I sure wouldn't let your panel get in the way of finishing your plane.
1. Do EVERYTHING except your panel/top skin. Ready to paint.
2. Run large conduit in the top front ribs for wiring harnesses for your new stuff-generic runs-you know approximately where you will want stuff to go. If you are going the Aeroelectric wiring route make a drop down panel for your terminal blocks or hinged panel-if you mount the blocks on the ribs it's a real PITA to wire it After the top skin is on.
3. Plan on building a minimum steam gauge panel that you could use as back-up instruments for your 'new' stuff.
Get the plane up in the air-you can always change things later-the hardest task is to get it to that FIRST flight. I mean, what's the sense in putting an extensive panel in if it takes you another 2 years to get it into the air, your panel will be outdated in another 18 months anyway. There will always be 'new' stuff coming out on the market.
Just thoughts to toss around,
Mike H 9A/8A
 
Thanks guys! Stein, I certainly see your point, and agree as a general principle. That being said, my plane is likely at least a year away from flying. I just hung the engine yesterday.

3. Plan on building a minimum steam gauge panel that you could use as back-up instruments for your 'new' stuff.
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That's what I'm thinking. I do like the idea of having a backup set of steam guages thare are not electrically dependent, so I still have at least partial panel if I get total electrical failure. I suspect Stein would agree with this philosophy... so I'm sort of thinking, why not build the backup panel first, even do my test flying with it, and add the sexy stuff later? I won't be doing any night flying or x-country until after my 20-hr test flying period anyway. Realistically that won't be all done until at least a couple of years from now.

The dowside of this strategy is i have to ground the plane and do a bunch more panel work after 20 hours of flying.
 
prkaye said:
Thanks guys! Stein, I certainly see your point, and agree as a general principle. That being said, my plane is likely at least a year away from flying. I just hung the engine yesterday.



That's what I'm thinking. I do like the idea of having a backup set of steam guages thare are not electrically dependent, so I still have at least partial panel if I get total electrical failure. I suspect Stein would agree with this philosophy... so I'm sort of thinking, why not build the backup panel first, even do my test flying with it, and add the sexy stuff later? I won't be doing any night flying or x-country until after my 20-hr test flying period anyway. Realistically that won't be all done until at least a couple of years from now.

The dowside of this strategy is i have to ground the plane and do a bunch more panel work after 20 hours of flying.
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Actually you don't have to ground the plane that long. Buy/make another panel on the bench-like Stein does(or have Stein build it), keep switches, ALT, ASI, radio/txpd, A/P, etc. in same places. Swap out existing trays, add new trays, 'T' off existing static/pitot, replace with new panel. Two tricks that would help: 1. minimum gauges(ALT, ASI, VSI), 2. Harnesses for new boxes. A little pre-planning would go a long way to ease the transition, and of course being realistic as to what you will be able to afford-new stuff costs more $, ie Garmin 696 for example.
Mike H 9A/8A
 
Hi Phil,

I misunderstood a bit and thought you were going to need the panel done withing 6 months. If not, then perhaps the idea that Mike (and others) have mentioned is indeed a great way to go.

FYI, we did exactly that for one of our customers earlier this year. He wanted the new AFS stuff, but couldn't quite wait that long. So, we built up a very nice steam guage panel with a mix of Van's engine guages and MGL's little instruments. We ran and wired everything to match the probe/sensor harnesses from AFS, so that when we are done with his "big" panel (which we almost are), he'll just remove the old panel, plug in the harnesses to the new one and be pretty much done! Even the basic VFR panel we did for him turned out nice, and since you can't fly IFR during phase one anyway it's a good compromise. This customers plane is flying and when we're done with the new panel, he'll just remove the old one and plug the new one in. Then, I'll take his old "loaner panel" (that we are just loaning him for free) back, and loan it to someone else. Perhaps you might be interested in borrowing it?!! :)

Cheers,
Stein
 
and MGL's little instruments
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Wow, I hadn't seen those. I just checked out their website, very cool. Downside is that these are electrically dependent, so not keen on them for my backup flight instruments, but might be a good bet for engine monitoring instruments.

1. minimum gauges(ALT, ASI, VSI),
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Is VSI part of a minimum? I actually rarely use my VSI in power flying (of course when I used to fly gliders I used it a lot). I find in most of my flying it lags too much and it's just as effective to watch my altimeter.

The problem with my plans is I want all 2.5" instruments (to leave room for the Dynon). The only sensitive (more than one pointer) altimeter I can find in 2.5" format is well over $800 (Winter). I wonder why there aren't more offerings for 2.5" sensitive altimeters... you'd think there'd be a big market for sailplanes.
 
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Panel

Phil,
You could always go with a Dynon 10A w/internal battery backup in your first panel, therefore only having one instrument, and then use it as your backup in your new panel. Like you pointed out, most 2.5's are pricey, good ones anyway. You'd also get more bang for your buck.
Mike H 9A/8A
 
True, but if eventually want to upgrade to IFR, I really like the idea of a reasonably complete set of backup guages that will still work in the event of total electrical failure (Dynon obviously won't work without power).
 
prkaye said:
...Is VSI part of a minimum? I actually rarely use my VSI in power flying (of course when I used to fly gliders I used it a lot). I find in most of my flying it lags too much and it's just as effective to watch my altimeter...
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Phil,

You don't need the VSI as a backup instrument. Heck, my first plane didn't even come from the factory with one. You only really need it for IFR and then only to give you a quick indication you are going up or down because it reacts faster than the altimeter.

When I built up my panel the following were installed as backups for the Dynon and none of them required electricity. (I did mount post lights over two of them for night flying.)

Airspeed, altimeter, slip ball, and whiskey compass.

After the FAA inspection I removed the compass as it is not required and the 496 has its own internal battery, so that is my backup for the Dynon compass.

The slip ball came out this summer when I installed the Dynon AP74.

Those instruments are easy to install, light, and only use the pitot static system for "power".
 
Redwagon said:
The VSI reacts faster than the altimeter? Really? You sure?
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That's what I was taught years ago. Am I wrong?

The idea was that the VSI will let you know that you are about to have an altitude deviation and in what direction. Then you can take action, prior to a sizable deviation.
 
VSI is trend

The VSI lags a fair amount (think about how it works, it takes flow in and out of the instrument to make it work), and the altimeter is fairly instantaneous.
Most GA VSIs have quite a lag. I know little about a software driven VSI, but there is probably some dampening & averaging in there to calculate the vertical speed.

have fun!
Tim
 
Hi Phil,

I wish to add value for you here without causing insult so I'll try to write this in as even-handed a manner as I possibly can. Please bear with me...

Firstly, if you're a year or more from flying, you've got bags and bags of time, if you are willing to do some advance planning when it comes to wiring. Stein and others have already talked over a good bit of how to go about this process.

Secondly, I fly an airplane that has a little more than half the instrument panel space of an RV, maybe 60% as much space, and probably only 50% as much "useable" space, thanks to structural support members behind the panel. When I did my cockpit retrofit a couple of years ago Dynon had "just" announced their superbright glass - that should give you an idea as to vintage of my panel.

Given the above, I was able to squeeze in the following instruments:
3 1/8"... ALT, A/S, VSI, T&B, COMPASS
2 1/4"... Eng Oil Press, Oil Temp, Tach, Ammeter, Fuel Quantity, plus one spare hole
Dynon EFIS-D100, Lowrance 2000c GPS, Icom A200 VHF, Garmin GTX320A, Intercom.

I have enough spare space left over for another VHF comm, enough space around the 3 1/8" compass that I can replace it with a Dynon D10, either EFIS or EIS, plus at least one other 2 1/4" hole. I've kept "switchology" simple, using guarded toggle switches for control of the mags, master and alternator, three switches for control of lighting circuits, a dimmer and master instrument panel lighting switch, and a dozen circuit breakers with room for at least eight more.

I'm hoping from the description above you'll see that if you use your space wisely you have more than sufficient space in an RV to install a COMPLETE VFR instrument suite and still have plenty of room for a couple of Dynon boxes. All it takes is a goodly amount of advance planning.

If you wish to contact me by pvt message I would be happy to work with you in achieving your desired result. I'm located near you and am a catagory "E" AME.
 
Redwagon said:
The VSI lags a fair amount (think about how it works, it takes flow in and out of the instrument to make it work), and the altimeter is fairly instantaneous.
Most GA VSIs have quite a lag. I know little about a software driven VSI, but there is probably some dampening & averaging in there to calculate the vertical speed.

have fun!
Tim
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